Toronto Maple Leafs: Who Would Replace Kyle Dubas?

[AvroArrow]

Yeah, he did real well throwing 2 firsts and 2 quality prospects away for 2 broken down old golf-carts in Muzzin and Foligno.

Trash post. Muzzin was a f***ing warrior for us, competed at a high level every single night and put his body on the line every time he played. He was a huge part of our team and he may have suffered life altering injuries playing for this team. That is a garbage post my guy.

 

[geo25]

At no point have the Leafs rewarded failure. That’s a strange way of spinning things. They have stayed the course, built on their team and placed faith in their best players figuring it out and getting to that next level.

And on the management side, Shanahan has simply not made an emotional, reactionary type move that a fan would make.

There is a limit to how long that can last, and we can see that by Dubas’ lame duck status this season. Whether it’s the right/wrong move is free to debate, but nobody has been rewarded for failure here

Also, people won’t like it, but there is still a conceivable path ahead where the Leafs fail to advance and Kyle Dubas remains GM. It’s going to come down to his own work performance, and what you deem that you can put on him vs the players not playing to their capabilities. A GM can only assemble the team, but it’s ultimately up to them to perform how they have shown capable. GMs get fired all the time due to player underperformance, so he may well go still if that happens, but whether it’s the right call is a matter up for debate

Surely you jest...The board should have cleaned house long ago. Keeping them (Pres, GM, Coach) on is in a sense rewarding failure.

 

[Sypher04]

Surely you jest...The board should have cleaned house long ago. Keeping them (Pres, GM, Coach) on is in a sense rewarding failure.

No jest at all. I don’t think your assertion that keeping them is ‘rewarding them for failure’ is valid, at all. Your opinion they should have been removed long ago is purely your opinion. It’s a much more difficult call to stand by the plan and keep building than it is to just overreact and ax people, which is a punishment. Not punishing is not equal to rewarding.

 

[hotpaws]

No jest at all. I don’t think your assertion that keeping them is ‘rewarding them for failure’ is valid, at all. Your opinion they should have been removed long ago is purely your opinion. It’s a much more difficult call to stand by the plan and keep building than it is to just overreact and ax people, which is a punishment. Not punishing is not equal to rewarding.

your opinion that they should be given contracts for life is just purely your opinion


and i have no idea what your saying by sticking to the "plan" , his original plan was to load the team with soft ''skilled'' players , that plan crashed and burned , now he's burning assets on players near the end to try to build a more well rounded team , hopefully it'll work even if it's just in the very short term but i wouldn't say this was his plan all along

 

[al secord]

Yeah, he did real well throwing 2 firsts and 2 quality prospects away for 2 broken down old golf-carts in Muzzin and Foligno.

The new age of trolling is so strange to me.

 

[Sypher04]

your opinion that they should be given contracts for life is just purely your opinion


and i have no idea what your saying by sticking to the "plan" , his original plan was to load the team with soft ''skilled'' players , that plan crashed and burned , now he's burning assets on players near the end to try to build a more well rounded team , hopefully it'll work even if it's just in the very short term but i wouldn't say this was his plan all along

Well, given I never wrote what you just said, no, that actually isn’t my opinion. Nor did I ever claim my opinion was anything other than one as well. Congratulations on missing the point of my comment.

If that was his plan he never would have acquired Muzzin prior to the point people like you claim his plan changed. Also, plans are not static. Sticking to the plan doesn’t mean doesn’t no adjustments at all.

 

[hotpaws]

Well, given I never wrote what you just said, no, that actually isn’t my opinion. Nor did I ever claim my opinion was anything other than one as well. Congratulations on missing the point of my comment.

If that was his plan he never would have acquired Muzzin prior to the point people like you claim his plan changed. Also, plans are not static. Sticking to the plan doesn’t mean doesn’t no adjustments at all.

every one of your posts is praising Dubas on an amazing job so if you don't believe he should be hired for life then what is your opinion ?

for every Muzzin i can list endless amounts of small somewhat skilled players he's drafted or signed or traded for and if the plan drastically changes then he wasn't sticking to a plan like you asserted

Dubas was handed a successful team with 3 exceptionally talented players , his task was to build around them and win a cup . not stagnant and get knocked out of the first rd year after year while a small group of supporters cheers on his failures

 

[geo25]

No jest at all. I don’t think your assertion that keeping them is ‘rewarding them for failure’ is valid, at all. Your opinion they should have been removed long ago is purely your opinion. It’s a much more difficult call to stand by the plan and keep building than it is to just overreact and ax people, which is a punishment. Not punishing is not equal to rewarding.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Gary Nylund]

While I would agree on paper this team should be able to make some noise in the playoffs. I wouldn't say he's done his job well though if they bow out again. All about the results. Not much faith in Keefe however and think he's a detriment actually

I get that, and it's not an unreasonable POV. There is another school of thought though that says that if you're going to judge Dubas, do it before the playoffs start. After all, at that point point his job is done and it's up to the players at that point.

 

[Lemontree]

Obviously every GM inherits a team. I thought we were discussing the players currently on the team. Only 3 of our current players were inherited.
For the record, Dubas drafted Marner, JVR was a departing UFA, and Gardiner became a shell of his former self due to injury half a season into Dubas' tenure.

The flat cap did not impact teams equally.
A competitive team locking in a significant part of their cap through the freeze time period just prior to the unexpected freeze was the worst possible situation.

The "big 3" were not coming off their rookie seasons. They were 2-2.5 years in.
We were a maxed out cap team with a point total inflated by unsustainable factors, with a depleted prospect pool and multiple cap anchors, that was about to have all of their ELCs - including multiple superstar ELCs - end. Multiple depth pieces already had one foot out the door, others were set to quickly deteriorate due to age/injury, and our starting goalie was about to implode. We were set to hit an unexpected multi-year flat cap right after all of our best players came due for contract.

We were absolutely looking at steps backward without incredibly effective management. Expecting the difference between what Matthews/Marner/Nylander were and would be to somehow balance out all of that is ridiculous.

The prospect pool is DRASTICALLY better than it was when Dubas took over in 2018. Not even close. Despite the fact that his entire tenure has been as a competitive team, and our highest drafted prospect got brain cancer. If a player already has a spot on the big club, they are not really part of the prospect pool. We had basically dumped our entire rebuild prospect pool into the NHL to get to where we were, and then Lou did nothing to replenish it.

Yes, exactly.

The Leaf fans discussing the cup this season are the realistic ones. That's the goal, and Dubas has built a team capable of it. That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to win. It's a difficult trophy to win, that requires a lot going right. But that doesn't mean avoiding making that obtainable goal your objective.

Some individuals are aiming low, because they extrapolate incorrect meaning out of our past playoff outcomes.
Funny enough, our path realistically gets easier and easier the further we advance.

Do you actually believe that Dubas drafted Marner and not Mark Hunter? If Yes, then I really don’t know what delusion you are living in.

 

[Sypher04]

every one of your posts is praising Dubas on an amazing job so if you don't believe he should be hired for life then what is your opinion ?

for every Muzzin i can list endless amounts of small somewhat skilled players he's drafted or signed or traded for and if the plan drastically changes then he wasn't sticking to a plan like you asserted

Dubas was handed a successful team with 3 exceptionally talented players , his task was to build around them and win a cup . not stagnant and get knocked out of the first rd year after year while a small group of supporters cheers on his failures

Well, it’s abundantly clear you haven’t actually read my posting history. Have I praised Dubas? Yup, I have. Have a criticized him too? Absolutely have. I think Dubas has done enough good here to earn the chance he’s being afforded. I appreciate others won’t agree, and I’m not trying to change those opinions, but it’s a pretty disingenuous characterization of me on your part to presume I think he should just be GM for life, like some ridiculously biased person who go disregards results, and history.

I am a Maple Leafs supporter, that’s it. The result of this at times I will support the work of our GM, and other times I won’t and many of examples of each can be easily found on this board.

As for the rest, let’s just say agree to disagree and move on.

Do you actually believe that Dubas drafted Marner and not Mark Hunter? If Yes, then I really don’t know what delusion you are living in.

Why does it have to be a one or the other? Isn’t everyone always telling us Dubas only drafts small, skilled players. Is it really that big of a stretch to conclude they were likely in agreement on the pick?

 

[hotpaws]

Well, it’s abundantly clear you haven’t actually read my posting history. Have I praised Dubas? Yup, I have. Have a criticized him too? Absolutely have. I think Dubas has done enough good here to earn the chance he’s being afforded. I appreciate others won’t agree, and I’m not trying to change those opinions, but it’s a pretty disingenuous characterization of me on your part to presume I think he should just be GM for life, like some ridiculously biased person who go disregards results, and history.

I am a Maple Leafs supporter, that’s it. The result of this at times I will support the work of our GM, and other times I won’t and many of examples of each can be easily found on this board.

As for the rest, let’s just say agree to disagree and move on.

a lot of dancing without saying anything and when have you actually criticized Dubas ?

 

[Sypher04]

a lot of dancing without saying anything and when have you actually criticized Dubas ?

People who do what you’re doing are the worst type of posters here. Accuse me, without foundation, of an opinion I never stated and do not hold, and then when I tell you that you’re incorrect, you demand that I defend myself by dredging up my posting history to appease you, prove my position.

My opinion was quite clearly stated in my last post. I think Dubas has done enough good here along with the missteps to have earned the opportunity he’s currently being given. You’re free to disagree. Clearly you do - I’m not trying to change your mind.

Dubas most likely is let go this summer if they fail again. It won’t be an unreasonable result at all in that scenario. That said, I’ve also expressed that I’m not as convinced as others are that the grass is always greener. If you wish to interpret this as me thinking Dubas is amazing knock yourself out.

We replaced Burke with Nonis and that sure as shit wasn’t an upgrade.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I get that, and it's not an unreasonable POV. There is another school of thought though that says that if you're going to judge Dubas, do it before the playoffs start. After all, at that point point his job is done and it's up to the players at that point.

The players he assembled though. His downfall will probably be his inability to pivot from the core and trading a piece out.

 

[Bomber0104]

Trash post. Muzzin was a f***ing warrior for us, competed at a high level every single night and put his body on the line every time he played. He was a huge part of our team and he may have suffered life altering injuries playing for this team. That is a garbage post my guy.

And as I said, I respect Muzzin as a person and player, and he's going to look back proudly at his overall career. I'm also very sensitive to his injury troubles right now, so please stop thinking I'm picking on him for that. Quite the opposite.

My stance is that Muzzin on the Toronto Maple Leafs including the expenditure of a 1st round pick and two capable prospects didn't accomplish what it was supposed to, team success.

Not because of him, but because of the timing and lack of other moves that took the team from a 1st round loser in 2017 to a 1st round loser in 2022.

You can debate the value sure but the entire point of trades is to progress the team towards a Stanley Cup, after all.

LA now have two everyday NHL players, drafted a 1st in Bjorfot who is now breaking onto the team, and have as many playoff round wins as Toronto since the trade was made.

The Leafs have nothing now.

 

[hotpaws]

People who do what you’re doing are the worst type of posters here. Accuse me, without foundation, of an opinion I never stated and do not hold, and then when I tell you that you’re incorrect, you demand that I defend myself by dredging up my posting history to appease you, prove my position.

My opinion was quite clearly stated in my last post. I think Dubas has done enough good here to have earned the opportunity he’s currently being given. You’re free to disagree. Clearly you do - I’m not trying to change your mind.

Dubas most likely is let go this summer if they fail again. It won’t be an unreasonable result at all in that scenario. That said, I’ve also expressed that I’m not as convinced as others are that the grass is always greener. If you wish to interpret this as me thinking Dubas is amazing knock yourself out.

We replaced Burke with Nonis and that sure as shit wasn’t an upgrade.

instead of just giving me an example or two of when you have criticized Dubas you choose to play the victim in a long winded post while also attacking me , kudos but it doesn't change the fact that your one of small group of posters who support or defend every move Dubas makes which is fine but i find it strange that you feel compelled to act like your some unbiased fan of him , i guess you believe doing this will convince others Dubas should be extended indefinitely

didn't care for either Burke or Nonis but lets not act like NoNo wasn't forced to play the losing hand Burke left him

 

[Gary Nylund]

The players he assembled though. His downfall will probably be his inability to pivot from the core and trading a piece out.

You don't like our chances this spring?

 

[hotpaws]

The players he assembled though. His downfall will probably be his inability to pivot from the core and trading a piece out.

i'm sure he would have loved to pivot away from a core piece but the piece that needed to go had a nmc he gave him

You don't like our chances this spring?

don't really like anyone's chances , the east playoffs are going to be a bloodbath

 

[Bomber0104]

i'm sure he would have loved to pivot away from a core piece but the piece that needed to go had a nmc he gave him


don't really like anyone's chances , the east playoffs are going to be a bloodbath

Truer words never spoken.

 

[HockeyVirus]

End of the day

People said he couldn't sign all our kids - he did. Not his fault the same season we finalize Matthews and Marner's deal we hit a pandemic and the cap goes flat their entire contracts.

People said he couldn't turn our bottom 5 D into top 5 D without trading one of the big 3 - He did.

People said all he likes are small skilled players. He has continuously gone out and gotten size and grit and the same folks now say those were dumb moves lol.

Dubas is a great GM in a bad situation. He inherited a team with historic franchise deals needed then hit a flat cap, in a division with a modern dynasty and one of the greatest cores of all time in the Bruins. Has there been failures along the way? of course no GM is perfect. But I think him today does things a bit differently than when he was fresh faced.

He is a very good GM now. I would want him to rebuild or retool our franchise if that is what happens and not some other old boys club idiot like Holland or any other idiots.

In reality, Dubas' biggest mistake in the minds of some here is not dealing franchise forwards who might be the GOAT's of our franchise during their early 20's because they didn't immediately figure out the playoffs. If they never do I don't see it as a mistake. The mistake would be watching Marner win the Smythe on another team and multiple cups and us saying what if, or Matthews winning his MVP's elsewhere.

Too many clowns in this fanbase

 

[Sypher04]

instead of just giving me an example or two of when you have criticized Dubas you choose to play the victim in a long winded post while also attacking me , kudos but it doesn't change the fact that your one of small group of posters who support or defend every move Dubas makes which is fine but i find it strange that you feel compelled to act like your some unbiased fan of him , i guess you believe doing this will convince others Dubas should be extended indefinitely

didn't care for either Burke or Nonis but lets not act like NoNo wasn't forced to play the losing hand Burke left him

Again, this simply isn’t true, but whatever.

The most recent, obvious example is my talking for the past months that our bottom 6 isn’t good enough (pre ROR/Acciari) And that it isn’t a function of lack of cap space, as other teams have proven it can be done for even less than we are spending. It’s a matter of the wrong choices of personnel. I have many many posts on this this season.

Also I’ve never claimed I’m unbiased. Literally non of us are. And I actually could not care less if people think Dubas should be extended or not. I’m not even convinced I think he should be. I just don’t necessarily subscribe to the opinion he should have been fired already either or that things would change much from doing it, results wise.

Burke and Nonis were both dealt tough hands. Nonis is still responsible for the moves he specifically made though, as Burke was and Dubas is as well.

Dubas has his fair share of blemishes on his record here and I’ll never claim differently

 

[Sypher04]

don't really like anyone's chances , the east playoffs are going to be a bloodbath

This is definitely true

 

[hotpaws]

Again, this simply isn’t true, but whatever.

The most recent, obvious example is my talking for the past months that our bottom 6 isn’t good enough (pre ROR/Acciari) And that it isn’t a function of lack of cap space, as other teams have proven it can be done for even less than we are spending. It’s a matter of the wrong choices of personnel. I have many many posts on this this season.

Also I’ve never claimed I’m unbiased. Literally non of us are. And I actually could not care less if people think Dubas should be extended or not. I’m not even convinced I think he should be. I just don’t necessarily subscribe to the opinion he should have been fired already either or that things would change much from doing it, results wise.

Burke and Nonis were both dealt tough hands. Nonis is still responsible for the moves he specifically made though, as Burke was and Dubas is as well.

Dubas has his fair share of blemishes on his record here and I’ll never claim differently

such a scathing attack , lol

but the funny thing is you're actually defending him (which you know) since your trying to shift the blame of our weak bottom 6 away from a lack of cap space which he created to poor choices when the truth is it's both

Burke ruined his tenure here before it really started with the Kessel trade and Dubas screwed himself by handing a ufa 11m then believing our elite kids were going to take a haircut so he could fill out the roster

 

[Sypher04]

such a scathing attack , lol

but the funny thing is you're actually defending him (which you know) since your trying to shift the blame of our weak bottom 6 away from a lack of cap space which he created to poor choices when the truth is it's both

Burke ruined his tenure here before it really started with the Kessel trade and Dubas screwed himself by handing a ufa 11m then believing our elite kids were going to take a haircut so he could fill out the roster

Why does rational discussion have to be a scathing attack? You asked for an example, I provided the most recent.

Also that’s a fun way of spinning legitimate criticism to fit your narrative that I think he’s amazing, never stop defending him and think he should be our GM forever. Nevermind that I’ve also commented that better depth is easier to do when more cap is available. Our cap structure just doesn’t specifically preclude that we cannot do it if better choices on players are made. You would know this if you’d ever actually truly looked at my posting history.

I should have known this is the quality of response I would receive.

Anyway, I’m done with this. Game soon and I still need to eat.

 

[Amadeus]

I know success hasn't been there yet but there is no one more capable and smart to lead this organization.