Confirmed with Link: Toronto gets Campbell and Clifford for Moore, 2nd (cond) & 3rd (Part II)

[8816 others]

The league doesn't like fighting because it's chasing fringe fans rather than focusing on providing a good product for it's loyal fans. Like the Leafs and their fans, as well as the other Canadian markets, Bettman believes those markets and their fans will always be there and will put up with anything and bankroll anything he does.

They won't outright ban fighting to appease the fringe, but they will make fighting less appealing to teams and players with rules like the instigator, or mandatory visor rules combined with no-helmet-removal rules which result in an increased risk of injury to hands. They want players asking if it's worth the risk of days or weeks out of the line up with a hand injury over a fight.

Then you have the way the league is structured under the hard cap system. All this forced parity and limited spending, has teams streamlining their rosters, holding onto draft picks, and getting younger. The older players and specialized role players who couldn't contribute in other ways, were the first to go.

The players, the loyal fans, and the media all love fighting, and the recent intensity of the Battle of Alberta proves that. Last weekend's Battle of Ontario was a snoozefest and couldn't have made a better juxtaposition to former.

 

[killer1980]

The kid had a plan and sold it to a bunch of aging, unhip old guys that were desperate to be cool. He came in with great fanfare and so many people said this kid is great. He is gonna take us over the top. Well, like a few of us believed, it was a dumb plan that was doomed for failure. So, now the kid without batting an eye reverses himself and takes us back to the place we were before, albeit a bit worse. And so many people are now singing his praises again. His plan was stupid, it failed, he should be gone along with all the old farts that put him there in the first place.

 

[Pookie]

No, a 180 is trading Marner for Kassian and a bunch of other deals like it.

I don’t know what that is other than a cause for dismissal.

A 180 is.... Martin you go away.

Leaf fans, I don’t believe I physicality. I see our team standing up for each other. We won’t sacrifice speed and skill.

Oh remember what I said? Forget it. Please welcome Clifford.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I don’t know what that is other than a cause for dismissal.

A 180 is.... Martin you go away.

Leaf fans, I don’t believe I physicality. I see our team standing up for each other. We won’t sacrifice speed and skill.

Oh remember what I said? Forget it. Please welcome Clifford.

I don't know why I ever bother with you. You're just so full of shit.

 

[ToneDog]

The league doesn't like fighting because it's chasing fringe fans rather than focusing on providing a good product for it's loyal fans. Like the Leafs and their fans, as well as the other Canadian markets, Bettman believes those markets and their fans will always be there and will put up with anything and bankroll anything he does.

They won't outright ban fighting to appease the fringe, but they will make fighting less appealing to teams and players with rules like the instigator, or mandatory visor rules combined with no-helmet-removal rules which result in an increased risk of injury to hands. They want players asking if it's worth the risk of days or weeks out of the line up with a hand injury over a fight.

Then you have the way the league is structured under the hard cap system. All this forced parity and limited spending, has teams streamlining their rosters, holding onto draft picks, and getting younger. The older players and specialized role players who couldn't contribute in other ways, were the first to go.

The players, the loyal fans, and the media all love fighting, and the recent intensity of the Battle of Alberta proves that. Last weekend's Battle of Ontario was a snoozefest and couldn't have made a better juxtaposition to former.

Some hockey fights have been pretty nasty to watch and I am not for it, especially the staged ones. But I am not against knocking a player off the puck or a good open ice hit, as delivered by a Wendel Clark or a Brian Glennie (RIP). The Leafs play most of their games like they play in ladies hockey.

 

[ITM]

The kid had a plan and sold it to a bunch of aging, unhip old guys that were desperate to be cool. He came in with great fanfare and so many people said this kid is great. He is gonna take us over the top. Well, like a few of us believed, it was a dumb plan that was doomed for failure. So, now the kid without batting an eye reverses himself and takes us back to the place we were before, albeit a bit worse. And so many people are now singing his praises again. His plan was stupid, it failed, he should be gone along with all the old farts that put him there in the first place.

Speaking of farts...

 

[Antropovsky]

The kid had a plan and sold it to a bunch of aging, unhip old guys that were desperate to be cool. He came in with great fanfare and so many people said this kid is great. He is gonna take us over the top. Well, like a few of us believed, it was a dumb plan that was doomed for failure. So, now the kid without batting an eye reverses himself and takes us back to the place we were before, albeit a bit worse. And so many people are now singing his praises again. His plan was stupid, it failed, he should be gone along with all the old farts that put him there in the first place.

I think Dubas is a good GM, but may have brought a succesful junior blueprint and tried to implement it into the NHL. NHL is a tough tough league.... its almost caveman like the way NHL players roam the ice. They knock eachothers teeth out. Then smile for photos with their giant gaps like they're trophys. No matter how skilled your team is, if they are not ready to fight back, or take similar punishment... they are gonna lose once the games become important. The cap has brought much more parity to the game too, where a team can be a force one year and out of the playoffs the next.

The leafs are very skilled, but i think the young guns lack dicipline and respect for the game. Ovechkin was 100% right when he said the leafs need to play differently to win. Its something he himself took what 10 years to learn?

Anyways... our young guys are tying their skates during the play and saying things like "coach wants us to play with our god given talent".

I like Dubas, he has made great draft picks in his short time, he has helped land ufa's like Mikheyev. He has not really lost a trade. His one big weakness is he is too nice and i feel like his players dont respect him because of it.

He needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and be the cool gm and start speaking the NHL players language. He needs to call his players out for sucking and being weak... instead of saying "well its difficult for me to say go out and fight another guy" or "i have failed if ....". Look the leafs are skilled, but so are alot of other teams. Their skill is not so much that they will overcome their incredible lack of toughness and work ethic. We dont have 3 Mcdavids... hell we dont even have 1. Marner is good but he is covered in warts that cause quality rushes the other way. Someone needs to put his ass on the bench for the rest of the game when he is tying his laces during play or making ridiculous drop passes. Nope...isnt happening because someone put in his head that he shoud "play to his god given talent". Know what a real wise hockey man calls those plays? "Tom foolery" and he wouldve put a stop to it ages ago.

These guys are skilled enough that if they learn to play tough/hard and defensively sound and make smart plays... then their "god given talent" may prevail against their opponent. But if they continue their cute low success sh&^ that create above average chances for their opponentss then they will continue to loose. For every beautiful spin o-rama highlight real pass there probably is 4 failed ones that result in quality scoring chances for the opponent. I know i throw my hands up often with Marner during games and say WTF would you even try that.

/rant

 

[KuleminFan41]

The kid had a plan and sold it to a bunch of aging, unhip old guys that were desperate to be cool. He came in with great fanfare and so many people said this kid is great. He is gonna take us over the top. Well, like a few of us believed, it was a dumb plan that was doomed for failure. So, now the kid without batting an eye reverses himself and takes us back to the place we were before, albeit a bit worse. And so many people are now singing his praises again. His plan was stupid, it failed, he should be gone along with all the old farts that put him there in the first place.

Why not wait until the end of the season to truly determine if he is a failure or not? For crying out loud, the Leafs are literally 1 point away from a playoff spot. The way you and some other "fans" are talking, its as if the Leafs are behind by 10 points .

 

[killer1980]

I think Dubas is a good GM, but may have brought a succesful junior blueprint and tried to implement it into the NHL. NHL is a tough tough league.... its almost caveman like the way NHL players roam the ice. They knock eachothers teeth out. Then smile for photos with their giant gaps like they're trophys. No matter how skilled your team is, if they are not ready to fight back, or take similar punishment... they are gonna lose once the games become important. The cap has brought much more parity to the game too, where a team can be a force one year and out of the playoffs the next.

The leafs are very skilled, but i think the young guns lack dicipline and respect for the game. Ovechkin was 100% right when he said the leafs need to play differently to win. Its something he himself took what 10 years to learn?

Anyways... our young guys are tying their skates during the play and saying things like "coach wants us to play with our god given talent".

I like Dubas, he has made great draft picks in his short time, he has helped land ufa's like Mikheyev. He has not really lost a trade. His one big weakness is he is too nice and i feel like his players dont respect him because of it.

He needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and be the cool gm and start speaking the NHL players language. He needs to call his players out for sucking and being weak... instead of saying "well its difficult for me to say go out and fight another guy" or "i have failed if ....". Look the leafs are skilled, but so are alot of other teams. Their skill is not so much that they will overcome their incredible lack of toughness and work ethic. We dont have 3 Mcdavids... hell we dont even have 1. Marner is good but he is covered in warts that cause quality rushes the other way. Someone needs to put his ass on the bench for the rest of the game when he is tying his laces during play or making ridiculous drop passes. Nope...isnt happening because someone put in his head that he shoud "play to his god given talent". Know what a real wise hockey man calls those plays? "Tom foolery" and he wouldve put a stop to it ages ago.

These guys are skilled enough that if they learn to play tough/hard and defensively sound and make smart plays... then their "god given talent" may prevail against their opponent. But if they continue their cute low success sh&^ that create above average chances for their opponentss then they will continue to loose. For every beautiful spin o-rama highlight real pass there probably is 4 failed ones that result in quality scoring chances for the opponent. I know i throw my hands up often with Marner during games and say WTF would you even try that.

/rant

I like what you say and glad to see you don't make personal attacks because you have a different opinion. My one comment I tend to disagree with is that the players have to learn to be tough and play smart. While I suppose some players can, I think most can't. This will be the Leafs' undoing. And, this I hang on the GM. A GM has to be able to identify this in a future player. It is much easier to identify the obvious.

 

[killer1980]

Why not wait until the end of the season to truly determine if he is a failure or not? For crying out loud, the Leafs are literally 1 point away from a playoff spot. The way you and some other "fans" are talking, its as if the Leafs are behind by 10 points .

I would agree with you if the Leafs were coming off outa the playoff seasons but they aren't. When he came in management touted him as the boy genius that was going to build on what we had (a 105 point season) and take us to the promised land. Instead we regressed last year and quite a bit this year. Now we are hoping and cheering for them just to make the playoffs. He has done a complete turnaround on what he said he saw for this team. Sorry, but I'm not cheering for them just to make the playoffs. I would have hoped they would now be contending for the Finals. He's a failure and so is the rest of the management team that put him there.

 

[hotpaws]

I don't know why I ever bother with you. You're just so full of ****.

he's full of shit ? lol

what the Pook said was bang on , unfortunately it always seems to trigger the true fans when there past opinions are mentioned

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

he's full of **** ? lol

what the Pook said was bang on , unfortunately it always seems to trigger the true fans when there past opinions are mentioned

yes, show where Dubas said or acted like he doesn't believe in having players like Clifford or Muzzin on his teams

 

[hotpaws]

yes, show where Dubas said or acted like he doesn't believe in having players like Clifford or Muzzin on his teams

i was talking about what the Dube's fan base say on here

 

[Pookie]

I think he'd love to have a Tom Wilson, but probably not a $2.5mm 4th. liner.

That’s fair.

Love the “mm” designation.

Folks pay attention... that’s the proper way to denote “million”.... 1000 x 1000

You have just had old school science dropped on you.

 

[Pookie]

He created by not signing healthy scratches like Martin and Komarov. And maybe you should perhaps look at the previous coach who seemed to have to much say in players, and his idea of toughness and grit was Par Lindholm. Babcock wouldn't play Martin either

Babcock did play Martin.... in the playoffs too.

Then something happened and Martin was in the doghouse.

Dubas created the hole at back up and while not resigning grit.... he didn’t replace it.

Instead went his own way.

He has recanted and brought back as close a player to Martin as you can get.

Totally on board too.

I like the new Dubas.... for now.

 

[Menzinger]

Part of the problem with some posta here is that Clifford has more to his game than 'grit', his underlying metrics are actuay surprisingly strong. If healthy he will be getting icetime, and not just beacuse he throws hits.

Its exactly like what Dubas did with Muzzin. A guy who has grit but also happens to be one of the teams highest skilled D men

 

[Pookie]

I don't know why I ever bother with you. You're just so full of ****.

Kyle Dubas - Dec 2018

On physicality...

““I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.”


——

 

[Menzinger]

Babcock did play Martin.... in the playoffs too.

Then something happened and Martin was in the doghouse.

Dubas created the hole at back up and while not resigning grit.... he didn’t replace it.

Instead went his own way.

He has recanted and brought back as close a player to Martin as you can get.

Totally on board too.

I like the new Dubas.... for now.

Babcock (to his credit) has never liked goons or sinilar players. Martin wasnt playing because he was weak at the game beyond physicality, and personally id give Babcock credit for realizing that.

This isnt the case with Clifford - a guy with strong metrics. Hes also cheaper than Martin

 

[Pookie]

Part of the problem with some posta here is that Clifford has more to his game than 'grit', his underlying metrics are actuay surprisingly strong. If healthy he will be getting icetime, and not just beacuse he throws hits.

Its exactly like what Dubas did with Muzzin. A guy who has grit but also happens to be one of the teams highest skilled D men

His metrics were with the LA Kings through multiple Cup runs.

His ATOI over his career is nearly identical to Matt Martin. His point total is exactly identical.

Seems the only ones here that are pretending he is something more are the ones that ate up Dubas’ line of BS on physicality and ran Martin out of town.

I for one applaud his 180.

 

[Pookie]

Babcock (to his credit) has never liked goons or sinilar players. Martin wasnt playing because he was weak at the game beyond physicality, and personally id give Babcock credit for realizing that.

This isnt the case with Clifford - a guy with strong metrics. Hes also cheaper than Martin

Trots likes him.

Even uses him on the PK. Weird eh. A goon on the PK.

Islanders won a playoff round with him playing too.

How’d Dubas’ team do?

 

[ACC1224]

Who I should Clifford expected to play with?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Trots likes him.

Even uses him on the PK. Weird eh. A goon on the PK.

Islanders won a playoff round with him playing too.

How’d Dubas’ team do?

So what you don't play a guy like Kap because of Martin ?

 

[4thline]

Trots likes him.

Even uses him on the PK. Weird eh. A goon on the PK.

I wouldn't call 8 minutes a season "using him on the PK"

 

[ShaneFalco]

Trots likes him.

Even uses him on the PK. Weird eh. A goon on the PK.

Islanders won a playoff round with him playing too.

How’d Dubas’ team do?

Prob a lot better with a good coach. One a playoff round with him playing lol
Yeah Mattartin at 2.5 isnt a good investment no matter how you try and slice it

 

[Pookie]

I wouldn't call 8 minutes a season "using him on the PK"

I'd call Kadri's 0 mins of PK time as not using him on the PK.

I'd call Martin's time on the PK as "he's been used on the PK"

That's not someone you need to hide.