Confirmed with Link: Toronto gets Campbell and Clifford for Moore, 2nd (cond) & 3rd (Part II)

[Pookie]

Prob a lot better with a good coach. One a playoff round with him playing lol
Yeah Mattartin at 2.5 isnt a good investment no matter how you try and slice it

Might have been better than paying $1.6M and using up picks.

Anyways, the 180 is unexpected and appreciated.

Thanks Mr Dubas.

 

[Menzinger]

Trots likes him.

Even uses him on the PK. Weird eh. A goon on the PK.

Islanders won a playoff round with him playing too.

How’d Dubas’ team do?

They won one less game in thr playoffs.

The fact that a different coach and different team with clearly differing team building philosophies has a use for him doesnt mean the Leafs would have now. As pointed out the two players have differing underlying metrics - something we know Dubas and the front office values

Not to mention A coach that i hated had no use for Martin - so this isnt really a Dubas issue

 

[Cotton]

Kyle Dubas - Dec 2018

On physicality...

““I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.”


——

Debate the facts Joey. You let your emotions get to you.

Wow, that's a terrible quote, lol. Was this from before Washington and St.Louis won the last two Cups with guys like Wilson and Maroon, while playing heavy, physical hockey?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Might have been better than paying $1.6M and using up picks.

Anyways, the 180 is unexpected and appreciated.

Thanks Mr Dubas.

LA is resting half and guys like him are coveted unlike Martin

 

[Martin Skoula]

i was talking about what the Dube's fan base say on here

I genuinely haven't seen a single person that wants 0 toughness. The conversation is always about how much skill you're willing to sacrifice for physicality. Trading Moore for a bigger, better, more physical 4th liner isn't the same thing as the people who were trying to trade Nylander for Ritchie last year.

Wow, that's a terrible quote, lol. Was this from before Washington and St.Louis won the last two Cups with guys like Wilson and Maroon, while playing heavy, physical hockey?

Are you guys even reading the quote? One player isn't going to change the culture, he's right. You can't just add a big guy to the team and say the job is done, you need your system to prioritize team toughness from the AHL and up. Having guys like Timashov work their way through the system and come out more physical does more for the team's culture than renting a single big 4th liner one year.

You want to be a system that creates Wilsons, not overpays them when they hit UFA at 29.

 

[saltming]

I'd call Kadri's 0 mins of PK time as not using him on the PK.

I'd call Martin's time on the PK as "he's been used on the PK"

That's not someone you need to hide.

Let's try this again.
Polak pk's should we bring him back and don't need to shelter him? Frasor was a good PK'er for us, also no need to shelter him?
Just because you pk doesn't make you good 5v5

 

[Menzinger]

His metrics were with the LA Kings through multiple Cup runs.

His ATOI over his career is nearly identical to Matt Martin. His point total is exactly identical.

Seems the only ones here that are pretending he is something more are the ones that ate up Dubas’ line of BS on physicality and ran Martin out of town.

I for one applaud his 180.

ATOI measures nothing more than on ice particiaption. The two players other metrics suggests one is more effective for pick control than the other.

Framing this as a 180 is based on either a deliberate ignoring of that - or of Dubas actual personal history (ie the Muzzin trade). Simply repeating something doesnt make it true....

 

[Menzinger]

Let's try this again.
Polak pk's should we bring him back and don't need to shelter him? Frasor was a good PK'er for us, also no need to shelter him?
Just because you pk doesn't make you good 5v5

Also simply participating on the PK is in of itself meaningless - it doesn't tell you how effective they are at the role

 

[saltming]

Also simply participating on the PK is in of itself meaningless - it doesn't tell you how effective they are at the role

Yup. Being big strong and willing to block shots makes you good for penalty killing

 

[Martin Skoula]

Also simply participating on the PK is in of itself meaningless - it doesn't tell you how effective they are at the role

Being an effective PK player also tells you nothing about how sheltered someone has to be at even-strength. Pookie might have almost accidentally stumbled into something resembling a valid point if icing was legal at ES as well.

 

[Menzinger]

The Marner dinner story is pretty fun. Looks like hell have a smooth transition onto the team

 

[deprw]

Part of the problem with some posta here is that Clifford has more to his game than 'grit', his underlying metrics are actuay surprisingly strong. If healthy he will be getting icetime, and not just beacuse he throws hits.

Its exactly like what Dubas did with Muzzin. A guy who has grit but also happens to be one of the teams highest skilled D men

Yeah, it seems to be almost impossible to admit to same people here that Clifford is unique beast in this league. Off course you add player like that if you can. There are few physical and effective players at the moment and every team is chasing for one, but it isn't easy to get tough guy with even skill set of Clifford.

It might have been 180 if we'd add guy like Martin, if so I think Agostino would play for Maple Leafs rather than Marlies. I don't think that Dubas have shied away of physicality, if you look his Marlies as an example, but it's hard to find big and tough players that can play NHL pace hockey.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Why do all these types of pictures look like the players just got out of the coal mine?

 

[Pookie]

Wow, that's a terrible quote, lol. Was this from before Washington and St.Louis won the last two Cups with guys like Wilson and Maroon, while playing heavy, physical hockey?

Yep.

Dec 17. 2018 saw that one hit the papers.

My favourite one though was his national interview with Maclean in November when he said he heard that teams around the league think that they can come in and push them around but he's seen evidence that the team is sticking up for each other.

 

[Pookie]

LA is resting half and guys like him are coveted unlike Martin

Martin's not available.

“When he’s come here, he’s been exactly what I saw four years ago and that’s refreshing,” Trotz said...

“When you’re coaching against Matt Martin, you could see he was an all-in type of player. You could see that he brings a physical element. You could see that he has good hockey sense. You could see that he is a big part of the energy of the team and that line.”

https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/barry-trotz-likes-what-hes-seeing-from-matt-martin/

 

[CelticDruid]

Why do all these types of pictures look like the players just got out of the coal mine?

The smog levels must be high in King land.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Wow, that's a terrible quote, lol. Was this from before Washington and St.Louis won the last two Cups with guys like Wilson and Maroon, while playing heavy, physical hockey?

Generally, one guy isn't going to make a difference. This Leaf team is soft enough that they may be the exception and one guy can make a difference though. Especially if he works hard and competes. It isn't going to be all smash, bang, fight. We don't need fighters, we need compete level by example that others see and replicate. He also must not be a slug out there.

This won't be the 1970s Flyers, you aren't going to scare skill out of the game, but you can nullify it with hard hits and sometimes in your face hockey, "give-you-no-space-hit-you-when-I-can" hockey.

I saw PK take Crosby out of an entire series when the Habs beat the Penguins a few years ago. He's never been that good since. I'd like to see a D man like that if we can get him, he doesn't need to get points, just shut down the opponents star.

Plus, of course, there is the goalie in this trade...

 

[Pookie]

Let's try this again.
Polak pk's should we bring him back and don't need to shelter him? Frasor was a good PK'er for us, also no need to shelter him?
Just because you pk doesn't make you good 5v5

That's fine.

But contributing on the PK does mean that a player does not need to be hidden. That's just a falsehood.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Martin's not available.

“When he’s come here, he’s been exactly what I saw four years ago and that’s refreshing,” Trotz said...

“When you’re coaching against Matt Martin, you could see he was an all-in type of player. You could see that he brings a physical element. You could see that he has good hockey sense. You could see that he is a big part of the energy of the team and that line.”

https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/barry-trotz-likes-what-hes-seeing-from-matt-martin/

Ok? Great guy but having him here to play out his contract was never going to work and a terrible idea at 2.5 anyway. But Lou likes overpaying complimentary players

 

[Menzinger]

Some of you anti grit guys really fail to see what a player that Clifford brings. It's not just his on-ice play but the swagger he'll bring to the room. Why do you always think it's just about fighting? Just 1 piece of the puzzle as to why those types of players are valuable. They elevate others.

The problems is (such is the nature of message board debates i suppose) is they regress down to X vs Y in terms of explaining why something happened. When reality is almost always more complicated.

Clifford seems like a very strong dressing room presences that likely had appeal to a team unde rpressure. He brings physicality that the bottom of the lineup lacked - he also has great puck metrics which is something the team values in all its playets. All of these likely played some role in pushing the Leafs to get him

 

[ShaneFalco]

Oh and Pook Kadri had some jam but you wanted him traded for years ?

 

[Pookie]

ATOI measures nothing more than on ice particiaption. The two players other metrics suggests one is more effective for pick control than the other.

Framing this as a 180 is based on either a deliberate ignoring of that - or of Dubas actual personal history (ie the Muzzin trade). Simply repeating something doesnt make it true....

Well.... here are the other metrics:

Player	Pos	PIM	Yrs Active	GP	G	A	PTS	Plus/Minus	EV Goals	PP Goals	SH Goals	Shots	S%	TOI	Goals/Game	Assists/Game	PTS/Game
Clifford	LW	819	10	660	60	69	129	-12	59	1	0	879	6.8	10.3	0.09	0.1	1.33
Martin	LW	941	11	667	60	70	130	-37	59	1	0	776	7.7	11.0	0.09	0.1	1.15

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Pookie]

Oh and Pook Kadri had some jam but you wanted him traded for years ?

Wanted jam in the playoffs. Kadri didn't play then as a result of his own actions. Not reliable.

Anything else you need clarified?

 

[Pookie]

Ok? Great guy but having him here to play out his contract was never going to work and a terrible idea at 2.5 anyway. But Lou likes overpaying complimentary players

Lou likes winning I guess.

Hey... change of subject... in trading Martin... the Leafs got a back up goalie... Eamon McAdam.

He's no longer with the team.

How many goalies is Dubas going to go through?

Guess he misses Hunter's player assessment capabilities.

 

[AllHeartNoSkill]

Wow, that's a terrible quote, lol. Was this from before Washington and St.Louis won the last two Cups with guys like Wilson and Maroon, while playing heavy, physical hockey?

It’s also kinda gutless for him to take the moral high ground and let the players have to deal with it on the ice.