Confirmed with Link: Toronto gets Campbell and Clifford for Moore, 2nd (cond) & 3rd (Part II)

[kb]

I've heard too many interviews with him to think he believes in it.

Even the audacity to say he's heard around the league that teams think they can come in and push us around.

He didn't want a fighter... wanted someone who could play.

Just consider this:

Matt Martin Career ATOI - 11:24 - 676 GP and 129 PTS
Kyle Clifford Career ATOI - 10:17 - 660 GP and 129 PTS

We had one. He traded him.

And now... we have one again.

Just consider.....Babcock scratched Martin and there was $2.5 million of wasted cap space. And consider....Martin was strictly a 4th liner and couldn't play up the lineup - and was taking up far more cap room.

Kinda wish more thought went into your posts.

 

[kb]

It's pretty amazing that you read that quote and think it means that he's got no interest in grit or toughness.

Almost as amazing as your inability to see the difference between Clifford and Martin.

Well, Dubas is the new "Kadri" for him. There is an inability to hear anything but his own voice.

 

[1specter]

Martin has played PK this year.

5 minutes on the entire season to date, or 7 seconds a game.

 

[Gallagbi]

Dubas made a mistake in ridding the roster of physicality. He corrected it partially by bringing back a Martin.

At a third of the cost. Seems to be an important point.

 

[Pookie]

There was no admission of error. He's not trading for 3 minute a night tough guys.

Stay focused.

We were talking about 10-12 min per night Matt Martin being moved and now trading for 10-12 min per night, Kyle Clifford.

This fictitious 3 minute a night player doesn’t exist.

But hey, far be it from me to take away your pious "I told you so" even when he's clearly explained his position on toughness on more than one occasion. I can make up fallacies and fantasies too.

I’d like to thank you for taking me back to my undergrad Political Science classes.

“He’s clearly explained his position...” as if saying that word “clearly” makes it true.

We all know his position. We’ve posted his quotes with links to the articles.

Don’t care about I told you sos. That’s for insecurities and I’m quite secure.

I do however enjoy this 180 because now we actually have some jam

 

[Pookie]

At a third of the cost. Seems to be an important point.

Yep. Budget to work with.

Even if he’s just a rental.

(Though draft picks are not without cost... right? Player it could have been either in a different trade or draft).

Nice to see a roster spot finally dedicated to grit.

It wasn’t Dubas’ master plan before but I’m glad it’s there now.

 

[The Man with a Plan]

Stay focused.

We were talking about 10-12 min per night Matt Martin being moved and now trading for 10-12 min per night, Kyle Clifford.

This fictitious 3 minute a night player doesn’t exist.



I’d like to thank you for taking me back to my undergrad Political Science classes.

“He’s clearly explained his position...” as if saying that word “clearly” makes it true.

We all know his position. We’ve posted his quotes with links to the articles.

Don’t care about I told you sos. That’s for insecurities and I’m quite secure.

I do however enjoy this 180 because now we actually have some jam

You are failing to grasp that
Clifford is considerably cheaper. Also has 2 rings. How many does Martin have?

Much better to have someone who knows how to win the cup and didnt just do it once.

 

[Pookie]

Just consider.....Babcock scratched Martin

You are defending Babcock decisions now?

180’s aren’t just for Dubas.

and there was $2.5 million of wasted cap space. And consider....Martin was strictly a 4th liner and couldn't play up the lineup - and was taking up far more cap room.

Kinda wish more thought went into your posts.

Just consider - Trotz loves Martin. Trotz has tapped him for some PK time.

And he got to see round 2.

Anyhoo.... before you get all exited with the 900k difference ... remember he’s UFA in a couple of months and we have Kyle Dubas at the helm

 

[Pookie]

You are failing to grasp that
Clifford is considerably cheaper. Also has 2 rings. How many does Martin have?

Much better to have someone who knows how to win the cup and didnt just do it once.

Hold up... you believe that Dubas’ master plan was to let Martin go and 2 seasons later, after exiting the first round.... trade for Clifford to save $900k?

That’s a dumb plan.

 

[Gallagbi]

Hold up... you believe that Dubas’ master plan was to let Martin go and 2 seasons later, after exiting the first round.... trade for Clifford to save $900k?

That’s a dumb plan.

Were paying Clifford 800k, no? 50% retained? So less than a third of Martin's contract

 

[Pookie]

5 minutes on the entire season to date, or 7 seconds a game.

Man... you really don’t like Matt Martin.

What’s the over under on how long it will take you to try to run Clifford out of town too?

 

[Pookie]

Were paying Clifford 800k, no? 50% retained?so less than a third of Martin's contract

I was talking AAV.

The nuances of retained and LTIR are pretty moot for the remaining 27 games.

Either way... it’s good value.

Happy to have him.

The notion of waiting 2 years for replacement while pissing away a playoff series is one of the silliest things I have read.

 

[Gallagbi]

I was talking AAV.

The nuances of retained and LTIR are pretty moot for the remaining 27 games.

Either way... it’s good value.

Happy to have him.

The notion of waiting 2 years for replacement while pissing away a playoff series is one of the silliest things I have read.

Seems like it's as simple as getting a player he likes (Clifford) along with a player he needs (Campbell) at a costhe could handle. Both to play and acquire.

Martin was way overpaid for the role he had, same with a lot of our other toughness that was lost. When they've come up at the right numbers - Dubas has acquired just like last year with Muzzin.

 

[Pookie]

Seems like it's as simple as getting a player he likes (Clifford) along with a player he needs (Campbell) at a costhe could handle. Both to play and acquire.

Martin was way overpaid for the role he had, same with a lot of our other toughness that was lost. When they've come up at the right numbers - Dubas has acquired just like last year with Muzzin.

so... the right cost... as in:

Carl Grundstrom, Sean Durch, Trevor Moore, a 1st round pick, and 2 3rd rounders? For 2 guys that will be UFA in a few months?

I am not going in a rabbit hole related to cost though. It's nice that he got Clifford to fit under the cap.

It's absurd to think he held out this long to find the "right" 10-12 minute a night player while knowing that teams around the league felt they could come in and push us around.

He's done a 180.

Main point is that we dedicated a roster spot to grit after declaring that he doesn't buy into the physicality argument.

----

Not just me saying it's a 180.

"There’s been plenty of debate about Toronto’s lack of team toughness over the past couple of seasons, while Dubas has remained steadfast in pushing forward with a lineup overflowing with skill instead. This is the first time Dubas seems to have relented somewhat, as Clifford wouldn’t be described as a high-skill player with offensive upside. "

- Sportsnet

 

[Menzinger]

Stay focused.

We were talking about 10-12 min per night Matt Martin being moved and now trading for 10-12 min per night, Kyle Clifford.

This fictitious 3 minute a night player doesn’t exist.



I’d like to thank you for taking me back to my undergrad Political Science classes.

“He’s clearly explained his position...” as if saying that word “clearly” makes it true.

We all know his position. We’ve posted his quotes with links to the articles.

Don’t care about I told you sos. That’s for insecurities and I’m quite secure.

I do however enjoy this 180 because now we actually have some jam

And you keep ignoring the that there are literally tangible differences between Clifford and Martin when it comes to controlling play.... using icetime to try and argue two players are identical is pretty poor reasoning

Cody Ceci gets 20 minutes of icetime some games, that suddenly doesnt mean his on ice impact is that of a top 4 guy

 

[Gallagbi]

so... the right cost... as in:

Carl Grundstrom, Sean Durch, Trevor Moore, a 1st round pick, and 2 3rd rounders? For 2 guys that will be UFA in a few months?

I am not going in a rabbit hole related to cost though. It's nice that he got Clifford to fit under the cap.

It's absurd to think he held out this long to find the "right" 10-12 minute a night player while knowing that teams around the league felt they could come in and push us around.

He's done a 180.

Main point is that we dedicated a roster spot to grit after declaring that he doesn't buy into the physicality argument.

----

Not just me saying it's a 180.

"There’s been plenty of debate about Toronto’s lack of team toughness over the past couple of seasons, while Dubas has remained steadfast in pushing forward with a lineup overflowing with skill instead. This is the first time Dubas seems to have relented somewhat, as Clifford wouldn’t be described as a high-skill player with offensive upside. "

- Sportsnet

Yup, right cost as assets and cap.

Seems like Campbell is the motivation for the move moreso than Clifford on timing. I don't think there was panic about the toughness, but there certainly was about goaltending

 

[kb]

So trading Matt Martin because Babcock wouldn't play him means Dubas doesn't like grit? LMAO

Takes all kinds of special to think that. Like ignoring all available evidence.

 

[Menzinger]

So trading Matt Martin because Babcock wouldn't play him means Dubas doesn't like grit? LMAO

Takes all kinds of special to think that. Like ignoring all available evidence.

Muzzin trade, how he ran the Marlies and Greyhounds. Anyone making that claim hasnt paid nattention to how Dubas has managed teams in the past.

The only reason hes ever moved "gritty" depth guys is in part due to salary. Martin made 2.5 mil, Komarov would have cost 3+ mil to resign ect. And not that id call Brown "gritty" by any means, but again, a guy moved for salalry purpse to get guys like Kapanen and Marner signed

 

[1specter]

Man... you really don’t like Matt Martin.

What’s the over under on how long it will take you to try to run Clifford out of town too?

Don't deflect with a straw man. You were wrong.

 

[Pookie]

Yup, right cost as assets and cap.

Seems like Campbell is the motivation for the move moreso than Clifford on timing. I don't think there was panic about the toughness, but there certainly was about goaltending

Well the trade deadline is the time crunch. No panic though.

Just a deadline if you want to address something. Goaltending for sure. That's a major gaffe he is fixing. With Andersen UFA after next season and no replacement in sight... this is an even bigger issue beyond back up.

And as for Clifford, he could have stuck to his plan of skill and speed over physicality. But didn't.

We should commend him for his 180 and recognizing a weakness in his plan.

 

[Pookie]

And you keep ignoring the that there are literally tangible differences between Clifford and Martin when it comes to controlling play.... using icetime to try and argue two players are identical is pretty poor reasoning

Cody Ceci gets 20 minutes of icetime some games, that suddenly doesnt mean his on ice impact is that of a top 4 guy

Cody Ceci gets 20 mins of ice time because Kyle Dubas has created such a piss poor blue line he has to play 20 mins a night.

 

[Pookie]

Don't deflect with a straw man. You were wrong.

Nope

 

[ULF_55]

I just can’t seem to enjoy a whiskey. Folks say it’s an acquired taste but by the time I acquire a taste for it.... I will have outlived my liver.

Innis & Gunn in Whiskey barrels though... that’s some good stuff.

Was just a few shots, perhaps 6 ounces or so ... on ice.

 

[Pookie]

The only reason hes ever moved "gritty" depth guys is in part due to salary. Martin made 2.5 mil, Komarov would have cost 3+ mil to resign ect. And not that id call Brown "gritty" by any means, but again, a guy moved for salalry purpse to get guys like Kapanen and Marner signed

And the lack of acquiring grit over 2 seasons after that trade while signing, trading for or acquiring:

Ennis
Spezza
Mikheyev
Marincin
Holl
Petan
Sparks
Ceci
Barrie
Aberg
Shore
Gravel

?

What's the only reason that he brought these guys in?

 

[Menzinger]

And the lack of acquiring grit over 2 seasons after that trade while signing, trading for or acquiring:

Ennis
Spezza
Mikheyev
Marincin
Holl
Petan
Sparks
Ceci
Barrie
Aberg
Shore
Gravel

?

What's the only reason that he brought these guys in?

He values good players who are undervalued - i dont think "style" has as much to do woth things as you suggest - other than they need to be able to fit within a a strong puck movement and control system (so stone hands arent welcome). And whose available at that moment in time for the right cost.

Spezza was one of the most undervalued players of free agency this past summer - so of course hes going to pounce on a bargin player like that.

Sparks is an odd choice to bring in when talking about "grit" too....

Edit:couple typos