Proposal: Toronto - Carolina this summer

[waitin425]

Svech will be a stud and could easily have the same ceiling as Marner. He’s obviously not there and may never reach that. But, Pesce evens it and then some.

This makes Toronto better and helps their cap situation. They could keep Gardiner too at that price as a solid second or third pair

Good deal

Marleau - Tavares - Svech
Hyman - Matthews - Kap
Johnsson - Kadri - Nylander

Reilly - Muzzin
Gardiner - Pesce

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Or, maybe the Canes deploy other options? UFA forward?

One of Faulk, Hamilton or Pesce pretty much has to be moved. I'm guessing it's Faulk even though the return won't be as good as if the other two are moved. Can't have 3 top 4 RHD taking up that much salary on a budget team. Wouldn't surprise me if TVR is also moved because I think McKeown can take over a bottom pairing role, plus I think the Canes want to open up a spot for Adam Fox.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I was surprised at how good of a passer/playmaker he is. I expected a physical goal scorer and he's doing fairly well at that given his age, linemates and usage, but his playmaking ability is an unexpected surprise.

Some of the passes he made showed creativity and vision in the games I saw.

 

[seanlinden]

Or, maybe the Canes deploy other options? UFA forward?

Ya they should probably have multiple irons in the fire. They're more than 1 good forward away,

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Kucherov was 9+9 in 52 in his 1st NHL season, and he was 20. And where is he now?

How many people put up 9+9 on their 1st NHL seasons and never became a superstar? I can guarantee it was a lot more... it is more likely he becomes a 30 goal, 30 assist guy than a 100 point player

 

[ole ole]

I'll do the 4th rounder.

But is Nylander worth a 4th?

 

[super6646]

Neither team does it, though I don't think the value is out of lunch like some leafs fans think it is.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

That's true. I think it's fair to remember that he's in his first season post draft. Guys like Marner, Aho, Nylander, weren't even in the NHL at a time when Svechnikov is on a 37 point pace (from the 3rd line playing with Jordan Martinook and Lucas Wallmark). I'm pretty happy with a 20G, 37 point pace for him at his age and how he's being utilized/developed. Still, if he's a 30G, 60+ point player in 2 years, I'll be very happy.

Leafs aren't trading Marner anyhow so it's a pointless discussion.

Fair points, Manrer did play in junior for 1 year after being drafted.

Not trying to disparage Svechnikov but a lot of people overrate potential and ignore the likelyhood that players will not reach their ceiling. I very much doubt Svechnikov becomes a 100 point player to be honest but that is because 100 point player are so rare.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

One of Faulk, Hamilton or Pesce pretty much has to be moved. I'm guessing it's Faulk even though the return won't be as good as if the other two are moved. Can't have 3 top 4 RHD taking up that much salary on a budget team. Wouldn't surprise me if TVR is also moved because I think McKeown can take over a bottom pairing role, plus I think the Canes want to open up a spot for Adam Fox.

Decided to take a look at CapFriendly which I hadn't done prior to my post. Looks like you guys will have about $30 million in cap space (if Cap is the rumored $83m) with just 12 players under contract for next year. No idea what your GM's budget is though. I suspect you have a better handle on that than me.

I was just making the point that there's lots of moving pieces/alternatives, and trading for one or our forwards is not the only option.

 

[GoldiFox]

So Svechnikov is going to go from 37 point pace (this year) to a 100 point pace in 2 years? Dont think I'm going to take your word on that lol let alone being 'very likely'

Should put some eyes on him and you might see why the points don't tell the whole story. Svechnikov has been very good as an 18 year old power forward in the NHL. The underlying stats show this as well.

Offensive Wins Above Replacement (oWAR) is Corsica's algorithm to determine player quality. It takes a lot of data and attempts to determine how valuable a player is above a replacement-level player.

oWAR top-20:
Pettersson, Pavelski, Point, Stamkos, Draisaitl, Guentzel, Stone, Panarin, Ovechkin, Skinner, Kucherov, Kreider, Pastrnak, Svechnikov (#14), Gaudreau, Debrincat, Arvidsson, Tavares, Kane, Palmieri

According to them Svechnikov ranks #1 in Shot Quality For and #8 in Shot Rates For. Certainly one can question the validity of this analysis, however it does exist as a data-driven objective interesting point of favor.

Corsica | WAR

 

[TkachukNorris79]

So Svechnikov is going to go from 37 point pace (this year) to a 100 point pace in 2 years? Dont think I'm going to take your word on that lol let alone being 'very likely'

LOL come on man... 37 points is pretty good for a draft+1 year. Marner had 61 points in his draft+2 year, and I would not be surprised one bit if Svechnikov hit that next year. He's also getting 3rd line minutes, vs 1st line minutes with Tavares.

Don't sit here and say that Marner is way more valuable than Svech. He still has 2 years left at 925k, which is the most valuable to Toronto. So if they were involved in a trade, it'd probably be one for one. But neither of them are going anywhere.

 

[LeafSteel]

If GM promises a player, he won't be traded, and then changes his mind, will players trust such a GM? You know the answer...

When a GM gets a deal that improves his Team, he does it.

A GM is loyal to improving his team, and doesn't report to a single player. If I'm a player and I want to win, I'm pissed if my GM doesn't do everything he can to make my team better. If I'm a player, and the 20 other guys I'm trying to win with don't have a promise not to trade me, I'm not happy that one guy considers himself untradeable.

I think Dubas' stock with players, and his follow-through to get Leivo a chance to play at a loss to us, cements Dubas' reputation with players.

Have I answered the question?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Should put some eyes on him and you might see why the points don't tell the whole story. Svechnikov has been very good as an 18 year old power forward in the NHL. The underlying stats show this as well.

Offensive Wins Above Replacement (oWAR) is Corsica's algorithm to determine player quality. It takes a lot of data and attempts to determine how valuable a player is above a replacement-level player.

oWAR top-20:
Pettersson, Pavelski, Point, Stamkos, Draisaitl, Guentzel, Stone, Panarin, Ovechkin, Skinner, Kucherov, Kreider, Pastrnak, Svechnikov (#14), Gaudreau, Debrincat, Arvidsson, Tavares, Kane, Palmieri

According to them Svechnikov ranks #1 in Shot Quality For and #8 in Shot Rates For. Certainly one can question the validity of this analysis, however it does exist as a data-driven objective interesting point of favor.

Corsica | WAR

Never said he wasnt having a good 18 year old season and from the games I have seen of Carolina he has looked like the best player on his line and then some. He would certainly be getting more points if he played higher in the lineup (not sure why he isnt) or was on the first PP unit.

I said it is not very likely he becomes as good as Marner in 2 years. Marner also brings so much more than just offensive to the table. He is great on the PK, strong defensive player, always rated highly in the league in takeaways etc.

 

[MinJaBen]

I wouldn't do the OP. Marner is obviously a world class player, but Pesce and Svech are very good in their own right and Svech has a lot of development room to grow. There are probably only two or three guys in the whole league I'd consider moving both for in a deal, and none of them are wingers.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

LOL come on man... 37 points is pretty good for a draft+1 year. Marner had 61 points in his draft+2 year, and I would not be surprised one bit if Svechnikov hit that next year. He's also getting 3rd line minutes, vs 1st line minutes with Tavares.

Don't sit here and say that Marner is way more valuable than Svech. He still has 2 years left at 925k, which is the most valuable to Toronto. So if they were involved in a trade, it'd probably be one for one. But neither of them are going anywhere.

I am going to sit here and say Mitch is way more valuable than Svechnikov because he has actually hit his cieling while Svechnikov is all projections at this point...

Ah so it is the Tavares propping Marner up argument. Funny how the reverse always gets used in Tavares threads. In his rookie season he played with Bozak and a collection of middle 6 guys mostly.

Referring to the bolded, if you actually think that I dont know what to say LOL

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Decided to take a look at CapFriendly which I hadn't done prior to my post. Looks like you guys will have about $30 million in cap space with just 12 players under contract for next year. No idea what your GM's budget is though. I suspect you have a better handle on that than me.

I was just making the point that there's lots of moving pieces/alternatives, and trading for one or our forwards is not the only option.

True. Here's how I see it.

Aho: $9M
Ferland (or replacement): $6M
Williams (1 year deal): $4M
Maenalanin/McGinn/Other 4th liner: $3M total
Mrazek/McIlhenney: $5M between them?

That will mostly fill our the roster and take up $28M in cap space (give or take a few million). The team REALLY needs to add more forward talent on top of that though, so unless a guy like Necas (or some other prospect) is top 6 ready, they'll need to add another player and I don't see Dundon spending to the cap, so that's why I think Faulk will be moved. I think they buy out Darling as well to save a couple of million.

 

[34]

Marner is electric. They don't move him.

This.

 

[SaskCanesFan]

I’d consider that for Nylander, but Marner is pretty much a non starter.

You'd "consider" BOTH Svech and Pesce for Nylander? Lol

 

[Kshahdoo]

LOL come on man... 37 points is pretty good for a draft+1 year. Marner had 61 points in his draft+2 year, and I would not be surprised one bit if Svechnikov hit that next year. He's also getting 3rd line minutes, vs 1st line minutes with Tavares.

Don't sit here and say that Marner is way more valuable than Svech. He still has 2 years left at 925k, which is the most valuable to Toronto. So if they were involved in a trade, it'd probably be one for one. But neither of them are going anywhere.

Yeah, Toronto fans forget one important thing: Pesce and Svechnikov are COMBINED worth half of what Marner asks for. So it's not Pesce + Svechnikov vs Marner, but Pesce + Svechnikov + Kapanen (or anybody else worth 6M/year) vs Marner. I think, it's pretty obvious, which part of this "equation" is worth more.

 

[joe dirte]

I bet, a lot of Toronto fans won't love it, but with Mattews and Tavares making the money they make, if they get another 11M+ player, they'll find themselves in big troubles cap wise and prespectives-to-win-the-Cup wise. So here a proposal

To Toronto
Pesce, Svechnikov

To Carolina
Marner

Svechnikov is a different type of a player, than Marner, more like a power forward and a goal scorer (he can pass as well, though), and can become a PPG player in a year or two.

Pesce is a solid young top4 defenseman with upsides. That's why Toronto should agree to this deal.

As to Carolina, they get another superstar forward to help Aho, both are very young and can drive the team to a promised land for many years to come.

If this were a poll it would be 100% no from leaf fans and shut down by now.

I award you no points.

 

[joe dirte]

Yeah, Toronto fans forget one important thing: Pesce and Svechnikov are COMBINED worth half of what Marner asks for. So it's not Pesce + Svechnikov vs Marner, but Pesce + Svechnikov + Kapanen (or anybody else worth 6M/year) vs Marner. I think, it's pretty obvious, which part of this "equation" is worth more.

I would give this one up if i were you. It's foolish.

 

[Kshahdoo]

If this were a poll it would be 100% no from leaf fans and shut down by now.

I award you no points.

Lol, Toronto fans won't be 100% yes to white isn't black, let alone to what is better for their team.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Lol, Toronto fans won't be 100% yes to white isn't black, let alone to what is better for their team.

Regardless of value, or perceived value, you are proposing that they trade one of their best, young, and virtually untouchable players. There are probably 20 other moves they'd make before trading Marner if they run into a cap problem. Trading a guy like Marner, who is an elite/near elite player, does not have any off-ice or dressing room issues, and is still an RFA rarely every happens.

 

[The S5]

Canes fans would love to have Marner, of course, but are quite happy keeping Pesce and Svech. I am sure it isn't Canes fans asking for this trade, so the back and forth is silly.
Let's stop with the Canes/Leafs trades.

 

[garyturner3]

Lol, of course you'd consider it, but you won't get Pesce for Nylander let alone Svechnikov. I think, Svechnikov will become a better player, than Nylander, as soon as next season.

Pesce wasn't enough to get Nylander when we were going through this his while contract saga earlier this year. You think Nylander's slow start all of a sudden changed that? Of course not. Pesce still doesn't have enough value to return Nylander straight up.