Proposal: Toronto - Carolina this summer

[joe dirte]

Lol, Toronto fans won't be 100% yes to white isn't black, let alone to what is better for their team.

And yet the fact tgat its 100% agreed on by leaf fans here should tell you something then...

 

[The List Of Jericho]

Lol, of course you'd consider it, but you won't get Pesce for Nylander let alone Svechnikov. I think, Svechnikov will become a better player, than Nylander, as soon as next season.

This is a hilarious take..thanks for that. Nylander has started to hit his stride and worth more than Pesce lol

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Pesce wasn't enough to get Nylander when we were going through this his while contract saga earlier this year. You think Nylander's slow start all of a sudden changed that? Of course not. Pesce still doesn't have enough value to return Nylander straight up.

Yes, our forwards are too good! All we could offer for most teams defenders would be future considerations unless its a Doughty or Seth Jones type defender that is the return.

 

[93gilmour93]

Carolina would snap this trade off so quickly. Canes management would be drooling at the prospect of having Marner and Aho together.

 

[GoldiFox]

Pesce wasn't enough to get Nylander when we were going through this his while contract saga earlier this year. You think Nylander's slow start all of a sudden changed that? Of course not. Pesce still doesn't have enough value to return Nylander straight up.

Nylander's slow start doesn't change that. What changed between Nylander's signing and now is the reality that Matthews and Marner each want/got $11+ million a year. Back when Canes/Leafs fans were discussing Nylander the feeling from Leafs fans was that they would all take discounts to build a dynasty.

With 3 players making $33+ million combined I would think a top-pair RHD at $4 million x 5 years becomes an enticing option. Similarly Josh Manson would be another good option. Or the Leafs could continue to burn up futures on short-term solutions like Muzzin. That should carry them through their window just fine.

 

[Space Coyote]

If the Leafs decide to move Marner they'll be looking for player like Jones or Werenski and from the Canes its going to be Slavin not Pesce.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

How many people put up 9+9 on their 1st NHL seasons and never became a superstar? I can guarantee it was a lot more... it is more likely he becomes a 30 goal, 30 assist guy than a 100 point player

I agree, but you have to look at guys drafted very high, not any random 2nd/3rd/4th round pick that did it. While it's still not the norm, it's also not unheard of for guys to be underwhelming as an 18 year old and then putting up excellent seasons a few years later. Not all were 95+ points, but scoring wasn't constant year over year either. Some examples (not all were 95+ point players, just showing examples of great strides after a rookie season):

Eric Staal put up 11G, 31 points in his rookie season as an 18 year old and then put up 100 points 2 seasons later.
Stamkos put up 23G, 46 point in his rookie season as an 18 year old and then put up 95 points the very next season.
Scheifele put up 13G, 34 points in his rookie season (at an older age) and 3 years later put up 32G, 82P
Joe Thorton put up 3G,7P in his first season (55G), and 16G, 41P then 71 (in 72 games) 2 years later and had a 100 point season.
Kuznetsov put up 11G, 37P (at an older age) in his first full season then put up 77 a year later.
Giroux (as a 21 year old) put up 16G, 47P in his first full season and then 76 two years later and 93 the year after that.
Seguin put up 11G, 22 points as an 18 YO rookie, but 2 full seasons (excluding lockout) later had 37G, 84P
Rantanen put up 20G, 38P as a rookie, then 29/84 in year 2, and is on pace for over 100 in year 3.

I'm not saying Svechnikov will achieve those numbers as I'll be happy with a 30/30 guy, but using his 18 year old numbers, when he's being eased in on the 3rd line with Martinook and Wallmark isn't a good way to gauge him either.

All that said, I agree with Leafs fans that there is no way they move Marner.

 

[Fogelhund]

Finally a Carolina/Toronto thread, that has some sense... some, not a lot, but still some. Nylander traded for Pesce, as a basis, should be under strong consideration by both teams, July 2nd. My personal opinion, is that it's an expanded trade, or should be, but no point in arguing that here. What will be, will be. Special thanks, to those providing comic relief.

 

[Chan790]

Do people honestly think the leafs couldn’t get Pesce for Nylander? Like cmon this has been debunked by multiple sources like Lebrun and Bobby Mac many times. Dubas won’t even give up Kap or Johnsson for Pesce but keep dreaming canes fans you bunch of jerks.

We'd actually prefer to keep Pesce TYVM, but as far as things go...it was pretty clear from the things that he said to the media that DW walked on trade talks as soon as Dubas turned down the Canes Pesce-Nylander 1-for-1 offer.

Since then, the reports are all "Leafs scouting Canes" and not "Canes scouting Leafs." It's pretty clear who is desperate for this trade (Dubas) and who is not moving from their initial ask. (Waddell)

 

[member 147413]

I’d do it

 

[garyturner3]

Nylander's slow start doesn't change that. What changed between Nylander's signing and now is the reality that Matthews and Marner each want/got $11+ million a year. Back when Canes/Leafs fans were discussing Nylander the feeling from Leafs fans was that they would all take discounts to build a dynasty.

With 3 players making $33+ million combined I would think a top-pair RHD at $4 million x 5 years becomes an enticing option. Similarly Josh Manson would be another good option. Or the Leafs could continue to burn up futures on short-term solutions like Muzzin. That should carry them through their window just fine.

Leaf fans may have wanted that, but don't think for one second Dubas wasn't fully aware what was coming down the pipes in terms of salary demands and I have no doubt he's planned accordingly. Yes the salaries hurt and it'll be tough to keep everyone together, but the core players won't be the ones that we lose as a result. It'll be depth players. You don't go and trade Nylander for an inferior asset in Pesce just to save some money. That's poor asset management. You ship out guys like Brown, Zaitsev, etc. and problem solved. This gloom and doom cap crunch that people love to talk about isn't nearly as bad a people make it out to be. It takes 5 minutes plugging in the numbers on capfriendly to see how easy it is to work out once we trade a couple depth players.

 

[GoldiFox]

Leaf fans may have wanted that, but don't think for one second Dubas wasn't fully aware what was coming down the pipes in terms of salary demands and I have no doubt he's planned accordingly. Yes the salaries hurt and it'll be tough to keep everyone together, but the core players won't be the ones that we lose as a result. It'll be depth players. You don't go and trade Nylander for an inferior asset in Pesce just to save some money. You ship out guys like Brown, Zaitsev, etc. and problem solved.

IMO Dubas did plan accordingly once he started realizing his predicament (ongoing contract negotiations as well as Marner's continued dominance). He front-loaded Nylander's contract as much as he possibly could under current Cap rules and included a $8.3 million signing bonus due on July 1. The end result being that Nylander is a perfect trade chip to any cost-conscious team as soon as July 2 of this year.

I think you confuse inferior player and inferior asset. As a player who impacts the game Brett Pesce is undoubtedly lower vacuum value than Nylander. However, Brett Pesce's $4 million x 6 year contract increases his asset value significantly. It makes him highly desirable to any team that is bumping up against the Cap and also in their Cup window.

One can see an example of where this is misunderstood with Muzzin. Some Leafs fans state that they don't want Pesce and he isn't very valuable because Muzzin only cost 1st + 2 prospects. That is all well and good for this year. Next year the Leafs have to start game-planning to replace Muzzin. Maybe it costs another 1st + 2 prospects for another D with an extra year left. Rinse and repeat for the next 4-5 years and the cost in total is 3-5 first round picks and multiple prospects. This is a viable strategy but it is not directly comparable to acquiring a similar/better player who is cost-controlled for the next 5 seasons.

 

[WreckingCrew]

As much as I would love to have Marner, neither team would have any interest in this trade because all players involved would require overpayment to be pried away from their respective teams...there's just no trade to be had then. Svech COULD turn into the best player in the deal a few years down the line, and is on an ELC currently...that's not the risk-reward asset you would add to Pesce for Marner (from a Canes perspective). Neither team likes this

 

[Leaf Fans]

But is Nylander worth a 4th?

I would do a fourth for him. Buffalo fans might differ.

 

[hamzarocks]

Much rather do Kadri+ missing value piece for Pesce and Wallmark in the offseason. Lots of Cane fans have agreed that Kadri for Pesce is a fair deal one for one. Wallmark is cheap and signed for 2 seasons and can be a decent 3rd line center for the leafs. Not sure what the missing value would be but if cane fans are cool with a deal like this then surely a piece could be added to make it work.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Lol, of course you'd consider it, but you won't get Pesce for Nylander let alone Svechnikov. I think, Svechnikov will become a better player, than Nylander, as soon as next season.

Just like muzzin would cost a quality roster player ++? Pesce on his own is likely in the value realm of Kap and Johnsson. If the base is nylander and pesce Carolina is making a fat add on

 

[Nylanderthal]

You'd "consider" BOTH Svech and Pesce for Nylander? Lol

Yup, a #4 defensive dmen with no offensive upside would require a fat plus along side him to get Dubas to consider moving proven elite talent locked up like Nylander.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Nylander's slow start doesn't change that. What changed between Nylander's signing and now is the reality that Matthews and Marner each want/got $11+ million a year. Back when Canes/Leafs fans were discussing Nylander the feeling from Leafs fans was that they would all take discounts to build a dynasty.

With 3 players making $33+ million combined I would think a top-pair RHD at $4 million x 5 years becomes an enticing option. Similarly Josh Manson would be another good option. Or the Leafs could continue to burn up futures on short-term solutions like Muzzin. That should carry them through their window just fine.

You’re retaining on his deal and getting Slavin to switch handedness? He’s your only “top pairing blueliner on the canes

 

[Kshahdoo]

Yup, a #4 defensive dmen with no offensive upside would require a fat plus along side him to get Dubas to consider moving proven elite talent locked up like Nylander.

If you add Kapanen to Nylander, Carolina still won't trade Svechnikov for these two...

 

[Ciccio1980]

If you're trading kadri for peace the +is on the peace side

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Just like muzzin would cost a quality roster player ++? Pesce on his own is likely in the value realm of Kap and Johnsson. If the base is nylander and pesce Carolina is making a fat add on

Nope

 

[GoldiFox]

Just like muzzin would cost a quality roster player ++? Pesce on his own is likely in the value realm of Kap and Johnsson. If the base is nylander and pesce Carolina is making a fat add on

1.5 years of Muzzin cost 1st + two B prospects. If Pesce is similar and signed for three times as long then it would require three times the value. This will be an easier concept to understand next year when the Leafs will have to make another Muzzin-like deal to replace a rental Muzzin.

Yup, a #4 defensive dmen with no offensive upside would require a fat plus along side him to get Dubas to consider moving proven elite talent locked up like Nylander.

The problem is that Svechnikov is much more valuable than Nylander on his own.

You’re retaining on his deal and getting Slavin to switch handedness? He’s your only “top pairing blueliner on the canes

Who on Toronto is playing top-pair RD over Dougie Hamilton or Brett Pesce?

 

[WreckingCrew]

Just like muzzin would cost a quality roster player ++? Pesce on his own is likely in the value realm of Kap and Johnsson. If the base is nylander and pesce Carolina is making a fat add on

Pesce >>> Kap/Johnsson = Faulk

You're talking Faulk if you're using Kap or Johnsson as the trade pieces. Closest 1 for 1 swaps for Pesce would be Nylander or Kadri, and even still I think most Canes fans would be hesitant (Nylander contract $$, Kadri age) and would rather overpay slightly by using Faulk + ?asset?

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Yup, a #4 defensive dmen with no offensive upside would require a fat plus along side him to get Dubas to consider moving proven elite talent locked up like Nylander.

And what's the fat plus attached to Nylander to get the Canes to think about moving Svech?

 

[Nylanderthal]

1.5 years of Muzzin cost 1st + two B prospects. If Pesce is similar and signed for three times as long then it would require three times the value. This will be an easier concept to understand next year when the Leafs will have to make another Muzzin-like deal to replace a rental Muzzin.


The problem is that Svechnikov is much more valuable than Nylander on his own.


Who on Toronto is playing top-pair RD over Dougie Hamilton or Brett Pesce?

There’s lots of money to re up muzzin after next year if we decide he’s a core piece.?
What has Svechnikov done to prove he’s more valuable than Nylander and his back to back 60pt seasons broke under 22?
Just because pesce has 3x the term doesn’t mean he’s 3x as valuable you’re suggesting pesce gets 3 firsts plus?
Hamilton & Pesci might be shoe horned into those duties but doesn’t mean that they’re qualified to do so. Neither are among the leagues top 62 D