Confirmed with Link: TOR sign G Ilya Samsonov to 1 year, 1.8M deal

[namttebih]

Smith really sucks. I think Campbell will put up good numbers there similar to here but I don’t think he’ll ever actually take them any further than they’ve already been. If they get our version of playoff Jack, that’s a guarantee.

I don’t know, I just saw projected pairings for the Oilers D in the Ryan Murray forum. Woof

Nurse Ceci as your top pair?

 

[Gabriel426]

I think at this moment, if saying Murray is as good as Campbell and Keumper, that’s Leafs goggle talking.

I think If Leafs signed Campbell or Keumper and Oilers traded for Murray with the same type of package the Leafs did. We would be laughing at the Oilers and some might even starts trade proposal to bring McD home.

I understand we all want to defend and rationalize Murray being the better option than Campbell and Keumper but that’s really not the case.

If Murray plays good next two years, would that be bc of the Leafs playing in front of him or due to him.
Dubas believes Murray is the better choice between him and Campbell, that is most likely based on knowing both of them personally instead of just stats, like Campbell might be struggling mentally in the playoffs series or it could simply be Dubas think he is outsmarting everyone due to his belief in Murray or it could just be a cheaper caphit.
Will be interesting to see if Murray can help the Leafs in the playoffs.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's mind-boggling to see people upset with Murray/Samsonov simultaneously arguing that we should have paid assets for the likes of Gibson/Georgiev.

 

[ACC1224]

I think at this moment, if saying Murray is as good as Campbell and Keumper, that’s Leafs goggle talking.

I think If Leafs signed Campbell or Keumper and Oilers traded for Murray with the same type of package the Leafs did. We would be laughing at the Oilers and some might even starts trade proposal to bring McD home.

I understand we all want to defend and rationalize Murray being the better option than Campbell and Keumper but that’s really not the case.

If Murray plays good next two years, would that be bc of the Leafs playing in front of him or due to him.
Dubas believes Murray is the better choice between him and Campbell, that is most likely based on knowing both of them personally instead of just stats, like Campbell might be struggling mentally in the playoffs series or it could simply be Dubas think he is outsmarting everyone due to his belief in Murray or it could just be a cheaper caphit.
Will be interesting to see if Murray can help the Leafs in the playoffs.

With Dubas track record with goalies it’s reasonable to be a little concerned.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Murray and Samsonov is a no-lose situation.

Almost no one is giving them a chance.

So anything good comes of it is a win, and if not it was expected.

This post is exhibit A on why you should think logically and critically instead of just listening to the media.

 

[rocketman588]

I would.

If they fail, new management.
If they don't fail they win.

I don't know if firing them is a win at this point

Mostly because the way the contracts and our team is set up the next two years after would be a gigantic Shitshow

 

[ULF_55]

I don't know if firing them is a win at this point

Mostly because the way the contracts and our team is set up the next two years after would be a gigantic Shitshow

How can you say that when there are dozens of posters here who could do a better job?

 

[DraftSchmaft]

It's mind-boggling to see people upset with Murray/Samsonov simultaneously arguing that we should have paid assets for the likes of Gibson/Georgiev.

It's mind-boggling how the people selling us on Murray's past performances and playoff experience also deny Gibsons past performances of being a top 3 goalie in the league when the Ducks were actually good.

The only word to use for Gibson from 2016 to 2019 is elite. Not an exaggerated use of the word elite to increase the confidence and hype, he was elite in it's absolute form, and there's so many goodies for you to cherry pick there, which I know you would, if we traded for him and made him the no.1.

I have no doubt he's the better option over Murray or Sam for a team like the Leafs so it is not "mind boggling" at all if there exists people who would rather use assets (depending on the total cost obviously) to acquire Gibson instead of hoping an asset other teams need to pay to get rid of rebounds.

 

[deprw]

I think at this moment, if saying Murray is as good as Campbell and Keumper, that’s Leafs goggle talking.

I think If Leafs signed Campbell or Keumper and Oilers traded for Murray with the same type of package the Leafs did. We would be laughing at the Oilers and some might even starts trade proposal to bring McD home.

I understand we all want to defend and rationalize Murray being the better option than Campbell and Keumper but that’s really not the case.

If Murray plays good next two years, would that be bc of the Leafs playing in front of him or due to him.
Dubas believes Murray is the better choice between him and Campbell, that is most likely based on knowing both of them personally instead of just stats, like Campbell might be struggling mentally in the playoffs series or it could simply be Dubas think he is outsmarting everyone due to his belief in Murray or it could just be a cheaper caphit.
Will be interesting to see if Murray can help the Leafs in the playoffs.

It's also an option, that we weren't comfortable enough, that we could have signed Campbell to that five year contract. It's really make or break contract for Oilers and it would have been also for us. Campbell don't have track record, so if crumbles, that contract is really hard to move and it's poison pill for contending team in that case. Same goes with Kuemper, though he has some record but has also injury history. If Murray fails or goes to LTIR it's still manageble situation and we have Samsonov as insurance.

It was out of the box solution and I understand criticism, but it wasn't the situation where we ignored the market with abudance of starters. There weren't any safe bets. Every team in some sense spinned the wheel.

We can argue about Talbot, Campbell, Husso, Kuemper, Georgiev, but can really for sure say that which one is best and who will definitely out play Murray in Toronto?

I can't.

I would have liked Husso, so I'm keen to see how he plays in Detroit, but if he fails they paid asset for him. If Murray fails or goes we got paid assets we can use to replacement mid season.

 

[rocketman588]

How can you say that when there are dozens of posters here who could do a better job?

There's many who can do a better job

If we have to fire him at this point due to non performance he'd be leaving an absolute mess since that would mean:

We're paying a goaltender 4.6 mil for sub par play

Every one of our "core" is coming into contract negotiations with someone they don't know looking at a roster retool.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's mind-boggling how the people selling us on Murray's past performances and playoff experience also deny Gibsons past performances

Nobody is denying Gibson's past performances, but if you're putting emphasis on past performances, then it's illogical to simultaneously be upset about Murray. At least Murray has something recent to be optimistic about.

 

[Gabriel426]

It's also an option, that we weren't comfortable enough, that we could have signed Campbell to that five year contract. It's really make or break contract for Oilers and it would have been also for us. Campbell don't have track record, so if crumbles, that contract is really hard to move and it's poison pill for contending team in that case. Same goes with Kuemper, though he has some record but has also injury history. If Murray fails or goes to LTIR it's still manageble situation and we have Samsonov as insurance.

It was out of the box solution and I understand criticism, but it wasn't the situation where we ignored the market with abudance of starters. There weren't any safe bets. Every team in some sense spinned the wheel.

We can argue about Talbot, Campbell, Husso, Kuemper, Georgiev, but can really for sure say that which one is best and who will definitely out play Murray in Toronto?

I can't.

I would have liked Husso, so I'm keen to see how he plays in Detroit, but if he fails they paid asset for him. If Murray fails or goes we got paid assets we can use to replacement mid season.

The guys you mentioned had a better recent track records than Murray. There is a reason why only Sabres was willing to trade for Murray while the ones you mentioend were all UFA signings(I think).
Put it this way, if Murray was a UFA like Campbell, would he gets a contract of 4.65mil x 2 yrs?
The answer is NO, which means at this moment, he is not worth his contract.

If Samsonov is the insurance, would he be a better insurance for someone like Campbell or Keumper. Either way, if the point is if Murray fails, we have Samsonov, who is also a risk due to his play in the NHL, why take a risk at Murray and not go with a safer bet in Campbell, who knows the system, players style in front of him and the City.

The gamble from Dubas is Murray will be clutch enough in the playoffs to win a round or more.

 

[Gallagbi]

I have no doubt he's the better option over Murray or Sam for a team like the Leafs so it is not "mind boggling" at all if there exists people who would rather use assets (depending on the total cost obviously) to acquire Gibson instead of hoping an asset other teams need to pay to get rid of rebounds.

I think its fine to have preferences, but at the end of the day youre still hoping a late 20 yo goalie rebounds after multiple off seasons. Murray's risky, I'd say Gibson less so for this year (albeit still has his share of question marks). The cost to acquire, aav and term all scare the shit out of me for Gibson. Especially if he continue(d) at his current pace of play in Toronto. The cost to dump that contract would be huge.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The guys you mentioned had a better recent track records than Murray.

Not really. Murray performed better last year than Campbell, Talbot, and Georgiev, and while Kuemper and Husso had good seasons, they also were last and 2nd last in GSAx in the playoffs. There are concerns with all of them.

 

[ULF_55]

There's many who can do a better job

If we have to fire him at this point due to non performance he'd be leaving an absolute mess since that would mean:

We're paying a goaltender 4.6 mil for sub par play

Every one of our "core" is coming into contract negotiations with someone they don't know looking at a roster retool.

At which point are you talking, at end of season?

That probably means the goaltending was subpar, but the buy-out is very easy at that point, $687k in 2023-2024, and then $2mm in 2024-2025.

 

[rocketman588]

At which point are you talking, at end of season?

That probably means the goaltending was subpar, but the buy-out is very easy at that point, $687k in 2023-2024, and then $2mm in 2024-2025.

Considering it's a two year desk yes I am talking about if this were to fail and wed have to fire him after this season.

2 million in dead cap even in one year is not an insignificant number. That's one sandin contract for example if we were putting it in today's terms

 

[ULF_55]

Considering it's a two year desk yes I am talking about if this were to fail and wed have to fire him after this season.

2 million in dead cap even in one year is not an insignificant number. That's one sandin contract for example if we were putting it in today's terms

There's lots of time to adjust though.
Lots of contracts end before then and any competent GM can adjust for $2mm.

 

[deprw]

The guys you mentioned had a better recent track records than Murray. There is a reason why only Sabres was willing to trade for Murray while the ones you mentioend were all UFA signings(I think).
Put it this way, if Murray was a UFA like Campbell, would he gets a contract of 4.65mil x 2 yrs?
The answer is NO, which means at this moment, he is not worth his contract.

If Samsonov is the insurance, would he be a better insurance for someone like Campbell or Keumper. Either way, if the point is if Murray fails, we have Samsonov, who is also a risk due to his play in the NHL, why take a risk at Murray and not go with a safer bet in Campbell, who knows the system, players style in front of him and the City.

The gamble from Dubas is Murray will be clutch enough in the playoffs to win a round or more.

Talbot failed in Oilers, so he has also question marks in contending situation. Husso had great 20 games stretch and was worrying in playoffs. Kuemper has been up and down most of his career and wasn't anything special in the playoffs. Far from it. Georgiev has been going down last few seasons and been backup all that time. Campbell's resume is from here and he was fairly ok.

Would have I kept Campbell with 4.65mil x 2 years instead of Murray? Might have, but would have I kept him for 5 mil x 5years. That's the question. I don't see him as goalie good enough for that contract and it would have also meant, that this team is put on his back. It's big pressure and immovable contract in state of failure.

Like you said it's gamble that Murray finds his game, but if he does that his better than any of those goalies. He has something to back that up. Husso might climb on level above that, but I'm doubtful that Talbot, Campbell or Kuemper does that.

Also like you said only Buffalo was only other (known) willing team to make that gamble. It's also tells something.

 

[ULF_55]

I think at this moment, if saying Murray is as good as Campbell and Keumper, that’s Leafs goggle talking.

I think If Leafs signed Campbell or Keumper and Oilers traded for Murray with the same type of package the Leafs did. We would be laughing at the Oilers and some might even starts trade proposal to bring McD home.

I understand we all want to defend and rationalize Murray being the better option than Campbell and Keumper but that’s really not the case.

If Murray plays good next two years, would that be bc of the Leafs playing in front of him or due to him.
Dubas believes Murray is the better choice between him and Campbell, that is most likely based on knowing both of them personally instead of just stats, like Campbell might be struggling mentally in the playoffs series or it could simply be Dubas think he is outsmarting everyone due to his belief in Murray or it could just be a cheaper caphit.
Will be interesting to see if Murray can help the Leafs in the playoffs.

Actually, I think the key point is Andersen and Campbell both came up short.

So keeping either would have taken some defending.

 

[Gabriel426]

Talbot failed in Oilers, so he has also question marks in contending situation. Husso had great 20 games stretch and was worrying in playoffs. Kuemper has been up and down most of his career and wasn't anything special in the playoffs. Far from it. Georgiev has been going down last few seasons and been backup all that time. Campbell's resume is from here and he was fairly ok.

Would have I kept Campbell with 4.65mil x 2 years instead of Murray? Might have, but would have I kept him for 5 mil x 5years. That's the question. I don't see him as goalie good enough for that contract and it would have also meant, that this team is put on his back. It's big pressure and immovable contract in state of failure.

Like you said it's gamble that Murray finds his game, but if he does that his better than any of those goalies. He has something to back that up. Husso might climb on level above that, but I'm doubtful that Talbot, Campbell or Kuemper does that.

Also like you said only Buffalo was only other (known) willing team to make that gamble. It's also tells something.

Nobody would Sign Murray for 4.65mil x 2 years this off season. Maybe 2-3mil for a year to see if he rebounds. Even Andersen didn’t get more than one year with the Canes when he left the Leafs and he was really only unhealthy for one season.

Now is Campbell worth the 5 x 5mil, I don’t think he is but would he taken a lower cap hit like 4mil to stay with the Leafs? We just won’t know.

Lastly, I think it will be very hard for Murray to not improve due to him really being bad lately. How much would that account for Leafs being one of the better defensive teams as stated by some of you or is it bc Murray is playing back to his Cuo winning standard. That’s a question that only can be answer comes playoffs time.

Actually, I think the key point is Andersen and Campbell both came up short.

So keeping either would have taken some defending.

That could be it too.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I don't know if firing them is a win at this point

Mostly because the way the contracts and our team is set up the next two years after would be a gigantic Shitshow

Negotiating is part of any GM's job. Timing of contracts should be irrelevant to any consideration of replacing Dubas.

 

[kb]

I think at this moment, if saying Murray is as good as Campbell and Keumper, that’s Leafs goggle talking.

I think If Leafs signed Campbell or Keumper and Oilers traded for Murray with the same type of package the Leafs did. We would be laughing at the Oilers and some might even starts trade proposal to bring McD home.

I understand we all want to defend and rationalize Murray being the better option than Campbell and Keumper but that’s really not the case.

If Murray plays good next two years, would that be bc of the Leafs playing in front of him or due to him.
Dubas believes Murray is the better choice between him and Campbell, that is most likely based on knowing both of them personally instead of just stats, like Campbell might be struggling mentally in the playoffs series or it could simply be Dubas think he is outsmarting everyone due to his belief in Murray or it could just be a cheaper caphit.
Will be interesting to see if Murray can help the Leafs in the playoffs.

Or it could be that those people who think the Leafs upgraded will prove to be just as right as you currently believe you are.

And the truth of the matter is that no one can say anything definitive until we see how it plays out.

That is the true ridiculousness of seeing an ongoing pissing match before the season even starts. IMO, I feel the Leafs dodged 2 long term bullets. Goalies have good seasons, cash in, and then go back to the middle of the statistical pack - or in Campbell's case - the bottom of the pack in a UFA season and still got 5 x 5. Outside of 2 games, Murray was head and shoulders better than Campbell based on the quality of team they played behind.

 

[Gabriel426]

Or it could be that those people who think the Leafs upgraded will prove to be just as right as you currently believe you are.

And the truth of the matter is that no one can say anything definitive until we see how it plays out.

That is the true ridiculousness of seeing an ongoing pissing match before the season even starts. IMO, I feel the Leafs dodged 2 long term bullets. Goalies have good seasons, cash in, and then go back to the middle of the statistical pack - or in Campbell's case - the bottom of the pack in a UFA season and still got 5 x 5. Outside of 2 games, Murray was head and shoulders better than Campbell based on the quality of team they played behind.

Like I said, playoffs.
Murray can tank the whole season but he helps the Leafs win the Cup or a few rounds, the gamble pays off.

 

[deprw]

Nobody would Sign Murray for 4.65mil x 2 years this off season. Maybe 2-3mil for a year to see if he rebounds. Even Andersen didn’t get more than one year with the Canes when he left the Leafs and he was really only unhealthy for one season.

Now is Campbell worth the 5 x 5mil, I don’t think he is but would he taken a lower cap hit like 4mil to stay with the Leafs? We just won’t know.

Lastly, I think it will be very hard for Murray to not improve due to him really being bad lately. How much would that account for Leafs being one of the better defensive teams as stated by some of you or is it bc Murray is playing back to his Cuo winning standard. That’s a question that only can be answer comes playoffs time.

That is bit nonsensical. Murray's contract is signed years back. Michael Bunting wouldn't play for under a million next season, if it was his choosing. It's the choice to take that player or not with that contract. Like Luongo once said he would have ripped his contract if he could've had. Murray's contract is what is and we knew for starter it isn't bad money, but he wouldn't get it from open market at the moment, but he wasn't on open market, that's the reason we got those attached assets.

It's another question why we didn't sign Campbell back in the summer of 2021 before we acquired Mrazek. We'll see in year or two how bad mistake it was or was it mistake all together. You know Campbell is almost in same position with Murray, there is lot to prove. There is more positive note, but since that contract is only two years it's easier situation for us.

When we talk about Murray, there is 22 goalies that get paid more than him next season. Andersen is behind him 24th, since he got two years for 4.5million last summer.

 

[rocketman588]

Negotiating is part of any GM's job. Timing of contracts should be irrelevant to any consideration of replacing Dubas.

If it doesn't work out we're also going to have to go through a pretty large roster retool as well