Blue Jays Discussion: TOR Acquires Francisco Liriano, Scott Feldman, Mike Bolsinger

[rojac]

It doesn't make sense to me to put Aaron Sanchez's arm in front of the Blue Jays winning a World Series. It just doesn't. Those talking about us in the future are making the foolish assumption that making the playoffs next season will be a given. It isn't. Especially in baseball, the most unpredictable sport of all. It isn't only foolish to assume the blue jays have a guaranteed spot in the playoffs in the future, it is prideful. And pride comes before a fall.

So, you believe that the only way the Jays can win a World Series this year is if Aaron Sanchez stays in the starting rotation? I don't.

It's also possible that the Jays could leave Sanchez in the rotation and he pitches 4 or 5 perfect games down the stretch, wins the American League Cy Young and the Jays miss the playoffs.

 

[Le Cobra]

I also love today's deals. The Jays have acquired two former Cy Young candidates. I prefer Feldman take Sanchez's spot rather than Loriano though. Still am massively disappointed that they want to move Sanchez to the bullpen. The man is on fire and has momentum. Which in sports is vital to success. You let him cool down and lose that momentum, it's going to be a challenge for him to pick right back where he left off. There is no switch to excellence that you can just arbitrarily toggle

 

[Canada4Gold]

For the record I don't even know how I feel about this Sanchez to the pen thing. I'm not inform enough on how much they can reduce the risk by moving him to the pen or whatever. I'm not for it, I'm not against it, I've just accepted it as something that's going to happen.

So again I'm not arguing specifics here, that statement just annoyed me.

 

[Le Cobra]

So, you believe that the only way the Jays can win a World Series this year is if Aaron Sanchez stays in the starting rotation? I don't.

No not the only way. It does better their odds
I do believe that the Jays have a better chance winning a WS with Sanchez as opposed to without. Ask Washington Nationals fans how they felt about their postseason sans-Strasburg

 

[Cor]

I'm not specifically arguing for/against anything here. There's no specifics. I just hate hearing a "I don't care about the future" statement because I know if management took that approach and made moves that failed there would be a hell of a lot of people here who in handing would suddenly care about the future. You may not be one of them, but you know what it's like, you know it and I know it.

Management is paid to care about the future too. Now is the biggest priority obviously, but the future exists too. And this isn't a last chance window team, this team can be very good for a while yet.

I 100% agree with that.

However, and I think this is where we are disagreeing, is where you think about the future.

That Liriano deal helped our future quite a bit, at the minimum from an asset stand point. I loved that deal.


I see no upside to Sanchez's move to the pen. I think we are being overly protective against something that has no indication of happening, and it may cost us majorly right now.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I 100% agree with that.

However, and I think this is where we are disagreeing, is where you think about the future.

That Liriano deal helped our future quite a bit, at the minimum from an asset stand point. I loved that deal.


I see no upside to Sanchez's move to the pen. I think we are being overly protective against something that has no indication of happening, and it may cost us majorly right now.

How would you handle Sanchez?

 

[Starry Knight]

And it's not like he's shut down completely. Him in the bullpen is still a huge asset for shutting down games.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

Where do the two prospects rank in the Jay system?

I know they were 8 and 9 in the Pirates system but having one of the weaker systems in baseball, do these guys rank higher in the jays system? 4-5? 6-7?

I'd have SRF, Greene, Alford, Vlad, Harris, Zeuch, Urena, Rios, Tellez and maybe Maese all ahead of them.

 

[Le Cobra]

It's also possible that the Jays could leave Sanchez in the rotation and he pitches 4 or 5 perfect games down the stretch, wins the American League Cy Young and the Jays miss the playoffs.

If you look at the standings, we are a half game behind the Orioles. If we miss the playoffs by one game, and we look back at the season and factor in that IF Sanchez were pitching would have most likely won that one game that cost us a run at the postseason, would you call that good management?

 

[Cor]

How would you handle Sanchez?

Honestly? I let him pitch until there is evidence of and sort of fatigue. Loss of velocity, even a decline in efficiency to some extent. Then, you start to put the wheels on a little bit. You set a pitch count limit on him. Once he hits that, he comes out.

Even skipping the odd start is an option.


However, if we go to a wildcard 1 game elimination, or a game 5/7, I want Sanchez starting, and once you get him on a relief schedule, that's not possible.

 

[theaub]

The what-if's will be answered come October

But it is more than likely the potential what-if's that come from this move are overwhelmingly negative, solely out of the nature that its unlikely the Jays will win in the first place and this will be seen as one of the scapegoats. Is that fair? Probably not...but its how its going to go.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Glad to hear you don't care about next year. If we suck next year for any reason whatsoever I expect to not see you in here complaining.

People don't tend to care about the future until it gets here and then they're complaining in hindsight we did something wrong 2 years ago by trading someone or by not treating a player's health properly.

It's management's job to care about all the years. Obviously this year is priority, but if management just went forward as if future years didn't exist that's how we end up with countless complaining about why we suck because of things we did 3 years prior.

to be fair - Cor did say he didn't care about next year, right now.


i guess - one argument could have been, they could have played him 5 innings - and saved him that way. as y'all know, i suck the big one at math, so i don't know if he'd still have to go to the bullpen if he only played 5 innings per start. but it could have been considered.

however - Cy Young Candidate or not, I think putting Sanchez in the bullpen does solidify us somewhat in the sense if his replacement doesn't blow up - Sanchez can shut them down for a few innings, and then cue Osuna.

AND it gives us an option in the playoffs. .. (right?)

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

If you look at the standings, we are a half game behind the Orioles. If we miss the playoffs by one game, and we look back at the season and factor in that IF Sanchez were pitching would have most likely won that one game that cost us a run at the postseason, would you call that good management?

And if the opposite happens...and the Blue Jays win the division...

 

[Le Cobra]

Honestly? I let him pitch until there is evidence of and sort of fatigue. Loss of velocity, even a decline in efficiency to some extent. Then, you start to put the wheels on a little bit. You set a pitch count limit on him. Once he hits that, he comes out.

Agreed. Also if Aaron explicitly says anything along the lines of not feeling 100%, having issues with (fill in the blank).

 

[Canada4Gold]

I see no upside to Sanchez's move to the pen. I think we are being overly protective against something that has no indication of happening, and it may cost us majorly right now.

I don't have the necessary information to come up with a counter to your point here. But I find it extremely difficult to believe that they would limit Aaron's innings if injuries were essentially a free for all. We've heard about the rule of thumb 30% increase for a long time.

You say there's no upside and that may be the case because there's no way of knowing for sure what will happen for the decision they don't make(keeping him in the rotation probably), but there's potentially an upside there that includes avoiding injury risk that makes him a long term better pitcher, and gives us a healthy Sanchez for the next 2 or 3 years.

That could have happened anyway even if they leave him there, so that's where they have to weigh the risk v. reward and I don't have the proper info to make such a decision.

Just for example it could be a Sanchez in the rotation + 40% chance he gets hurt in the next 2 years v. Sanchez in the pen + 15% chance he gets hurt in the next 2 years.

Like I said I don't know any specifics and I doubt anyone here does so I don't see the point in arguing about the Sanchez decision specifically, I'd just assume that since they're doing it, there's some risk avoidance here and the decision is whether that future risk avoidance is worth the loss of him pitching right now. And that's not a decision I'm informed enough to make. So I just accept what happens and move on because I don't know the right answer

 

[Woodman19]

Just did a little update on the salary sheet without calculating the money that changed hands nor the prorated portions.

 

[no13matssundin]

Pleased with: Feldman, Pittsburgh Prospect
Hate: Giving up Hutch for Liriano as his era & WHIP are bad. Hope to be proved wrong.

 

[theaub]

to be fair - Cor did say he didn't care about next year, right now.


i guess - one argument could have been, they could have played him 5 innings - and saved him that way. as y'all know, i suck the big one at math, so i don't know if he'd still have to go to the bullpen if he only played 5 innings per start. but it could have been considered.

however - Cy Young Candidate or not, I think putting Sanchez in the bullpen does solidify us somewhat in the sense if his replacement doesn't blow up - Sanchez can shut them down for a few innings, and then cue Osuna.

AND it gives us an option in the playoffs. .. (right?)

I'd be rather wary about putting the kid gloves on a guy for two months and then unleashing him in the playoffs.

If it was me, I'd let him run until he can't run anymore. I don't think there's any exact science about this stuff beyond 'throwing a baseball is bad for your arm.' If his UCL falls apart its going to happen whether he throws 10 innings the rest of the year or 100.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Why weren't the Jays in on Abad? He was had for a pitcher that has a 23 ERA and a 3 WHIP in low levels of the minor leagues.

 

[Rysto]

I realize that Sanchez getting hurt last year didn't help things, but not stretching out his innings pitched last year is going to go down as a big time blunder. In retrospect, why was Hutch getting starts down the stretch over Sanchez?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Honestly? I let him pitch until there is evidence of and sort of fatigue. Loss of velocity, even a decline in efficiency to some extent. Then, you start to put the wheels on a little bit. You set a pitch count limit on him. Once he hits that, he comes out.

Even skipping the odd start is an option.


However, if we go to a wildcard 1 game elimination, or a game 5/7, I want Sanchez starting, and once you get him on a relief schedule, that's not possible.

By the time velocity deterioration, or loss of command, and pretty much any other tangible measurable sign manifests, it is too late.

Actually, that's a bit of misnomer I continue hearing from most people, both on here or on the radio etc.; any negative result of an innings jump would likely not occur this year, but rather the next.

 

[Le Cobra]

And if the opposite happens...and the Blue Jays win the division...

Right. But why even take the risk? Millions of dollars are at stake. History is on the line. You want to play your best players and give yourself the best chance to win. If you have the tools to succeed and you gimp yourself, you only have yourself to blame. This isn't some Hollywood movie - it's common sense.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

Just noticed but Stroman had 30K's, 4 walks in 34 IP in July. Batters only hit .242/.265/.394/.659 off him in July. Still struggling to strand runners but a huge positive he didn't get hit hard too much in July and started striking guys out again.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Right. But why even take the risk? Millions of dollars are at stake. History is on the line. You want to play your best players and give yourself the best chance to win. If you have the tools to succeed and you gimp yourself, you only have yourself to blame. This isn't some Hollywood movie - it's common sense.

Common sense would indicate that the keepers of the franchise would want to protect what has likely become their most valuable asset.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I'd have SRF, Greene, Alford, Vlad, Harris, Zeuch, Urena, Rios, Tellez and maybe Maese all ahead of them.

That seems a little far down, I like almost all of those guys, but the 2 guys we got are considered borderline top 100 guys, we're they top 100 at the start of the year? WE have what, 2 or 3 top 100 guys?

I think I'd go SRF, Tellez, Urena, Alford, McGuire, Ramirez, Vlad, Maese, Greene, Zeuch, Harris, Rios for the guys you mentioned. I'd toss Bichette and Pentecost ahead of Rios too.