Blue Jays Discussion: TOR Acquires Francisco Liriano, Scott Feldman, Mike Bolsinger

[Starry Knight]

This is literally the first move I disagreed with.

I feel like I could scour the Blue Jays threads and find that this statement is hyperbole

 

[Kurtz]

"And if he and his team are waiting for his body to tell them when he's feeling fatigued, they have plenty of data that indicates that point hasn't arrived yet. His average month-by-month fastball velocity, according to Pitchf/x and Brooks Baseball, has stayed remarkably consistent:

April: 95.34 mph

May: 95.05 mph

June: 95.89 mph

July: 95.26 mph

We've wondered for years when teams would start using more sophisticated data than "innings pitched" to make decisions like this. It has finally happened. Atkins has said repeatedly that the Blue Jays will use as many facets of "today's technology" as possible to look for signs of fatigue. So we can all stop counting innings.

Why is that? Because not all innings are created equal. Because this is a guy who is so efficient that only 10 starters in baseball use fewer pitches per inning than he does (15.0). And because, if you look at a stat ESPN defines as "stressful innings" (30 pitches or more in an inning), Sanchez has had only four of them all season.

So if you see that Sanchez is 12th in baseball in innings pitched, you might say, "Hoo boy." But if you check out pitches thrown and see he ranks just 31st, feel free to say, "Never mind.""


http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page...when-comes-aaron-sanchez-toronto-options-easy

 

[Puckstuff]

More like Liriano had negative value. This was ownership dumping cash and doing what they can to do so.

Exactly my point Eyedea. We took on negative value to get prospects!! Not the time for this. Not the type of deal we should be focussing on. 95 % of the course of a teams outlook sure. Not in the stretch run, when you could legitatmitley make a run for a ring. These oppurtunitities to win don't happen happen often. I'm not focussed on value trades I'm focussed on winning a ring. This shows where is focus and mind was

 

[Cor]

Do you like the Liriano deal or not?

Just curious.

I Love It.

Two top prospects for taking on a pitcher that has pitched great with Martin catching him, and we gave up nothing of substance (IMO, some liked Hutch, I was indifferent).


Only thing I don't like is the Sanchez to the pen, because I whole hardheartedly believe it's the wrong move.

No matter if Canada4Gold tries to tell me to go away

 

[Le Cobra]

Nope, pretty sure taking your CY Young Candidate out of the rotation is the wrong answer.

I don't care about next year, or the year after right now. We are a World Series contender RIGHT NOW.

Our #2 pitcher is battling injuries, and can take a turn for the worse at any time. 3 of our best players are pending free agents this winter.


Shi Davidi JUST said on Sportsnet that some players are upset with this moving of Sanchez.

Heck, Sanchez himself sounded like he didn't want to go to the pen. He flat out said he had no stress, no wear and tear at all and wanted to keep going.

We aren't leading the division by 7-10 games where this is an easier pill to swallow. Things are insanely close to be pulling a risk like this to try and avoid something that has no indication of happening.

This. Sanchez is leading the AL in ERA, if this were the Orioles who had Sanchez or any other team lol they WOULD NOT be pulling Sanchez from their rotation. 100%

 

[TootooTrain]

Question: can the Blue Jays limit Sanchez's innings for a while and then re-integrate him into the rotation by late-September and in time for the playoffs?

If he was a seasoned player it would be less of a concern. However if they're concerned with the chance of hitting an innings limit, I highly doubt they'd be willing to move him back and forth from reliever to starter. That puts more unnecessary stress on him. If they want him in the post season, just let him continue to pitch. Maybe skip a start or two or three. If he's in the pen, he's there for the rest of the season.

 

[Cor]

I feel like I could scour the Blue Jays threads and find that this statement is hyperbole

I mean, have fun I guess.


Well sorry, I didn't like bringing back Dickey.

But other than that, I have quite enjoyed the past two years-ish.

 

[Leaftors]

Do i think it would be stupid to put sanchez in the pen? Ya
Would people look back on this in 2 years if half way through the season he blew his arm and it cost us a playoff spot, and him a cy young? Ya
Do i think anyone knows what the right decision is? No
Do i make any sense whatsoever? Probably not

 

[Eyedea]

Exactly my point Eyedea. We took on negative value to get prospects!! Not the time for this. Not the type of deal we should be focussing on. 95 % of the course of a teams outlook sure. Not in the stretch run, when you could legitatmitley make a run for a ring. These oppurtintoes to happen often.

Read my edit. This was a big market move. Liriano has as much upside as Hutch does on this team, so in our view it's a lateral move while attaining two good prospects.

Negative for Pittsburgh (because they are on a much lower budget), positive for us (because there's a lot of upside and potential to be had here).

This also removes Dickey/Thole from the equation if it wasn't already expected. McGuire could also slot in as soon as next spring.

 

[Cor]

"And if he and his team are waiting for his body to tell them when he's feeling fatigued, they have plenty of data that indicates that point hasn't arrived yet. His average month-by-month fastball velocity, according to Pitchf/x and Brooks Baseball, has stayed remarkably consistent:

April: 95.34 mph

May: 95.05 mph

June: 95.89 mph

July: 95.26 mph

We've wondered for years when teams would start using more sophisticated data than "innings pitched" to make decisions like this. It has finally happened. Atkins has said repeatedly that the Blue Jays will use as many facets of "today's technology" as possible to look for signs of fatigue. So we can all stop counting innings.

Why is that? Because not all innings are created equal. Because this is a guy who is so efficient that only 10 starters in baseball use fewer pitches per inning than he does (15.0). And because, if you look at a stat ESPN defines as "stressful innings" (30 pitches or more in an inning), Sanchez has had only four of them all season.

So if you see that Sanchez is 12th in baseball in innings pitched, you might say, "Hoo boy." But if you check out pitches thrown and see he ranks just 31st, feel free to say, "Never mind.""


http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page...when-comes-aaron-sanchez-toronto-options-easy

Hey, actual information!

 

[Eyedea]

Do i think it would be stupid to put sanchez in the pen? Ya
Would people look back on this in 2 years if half way through the season he blew his arm and it cost us a playoff spot, and him a cy young? Ya
Do i think anyone knows what the right decision is? No
Do i make any sense whatsoever? Probably not

I think you've made the most sense in this thread man.

 

[Canada4Gold]

This is literally the first move I disagreed with.

No Opinions Allowed, right bud?


Also, for being snarky to me... how about some reading comprehension. I said I don't care about next year 'right now'. Get out of here.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. If you don't care about the future right now, then you expect the team to be managed not caring about the future. So if Sanchez gets hurt next year or the year after you don't really have a right to complain about it but you wanted decisions made about that not caring about next year or the year after with Sanchez.

I've seen this over and over and over and I'm sick of it, so yes I'll feel free to point it out, thanks. People who don't care about the future and then the future gets here and then complain about the past moves which affected this future.

It's like they expect the team to be managed solely for the now, but somehow magically not affect the future.

Management is paid to care about the future so if you don't they're looking at it a different way then you, and way you'll be fine caring about when it gets here.

I don't understand how someone can say with a straight face they don't care about the future and want decisions made for the now only, and then feel free complaining in hindsight 2 years down the road.

 

[Cor]

Read my edit. This was a big market move. Liriano has as much upside as Hutch does on this team, so in our view it's a lateral move while attaining two good prospects.

Negative for Pittsburgh (because they are on a much lower budget), positive for us (because there's a lot of upside and potential to be had here).

This also removes Dickey/Thole from the equation if it wasn't already expected. McGuire could also slot in as soon as next spring.

Is McGuire projected to be MLB ready that soon? I know Ramirez was said to be fairly close as well.

 

[LeafChief]

Where do the two prospects rank in the Jay system?

I know they were 8 and 9 in the Pirates system but having one of the weaker systems in baseball, do these guys rank higher in the jays system? 4-5? 6-7?

 

[theaub]

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. If you don't care about the future right now, then you expect the team to be managed not caring about the future. So if Sanchez gets hurt next year or the year after you don't really have a right to complain about it but you wanted decisions made about that not caring about next year or the year after with Sanchez.

I've seen this over and over and over and I'm sick of it, so yes I'll feel free to point it out, thanks. People who don't care about the future and then the future gets here and then complain about the past moves which affected this future.

It's like they expect the team to be managed solely for the now, but somehow magically not affect the future.

Management is paid to care about the future so if you don't they're looking at it a different way then you, and way you'll be fine caring about when it gets here.

I don't understand how someone can say with a straight face they don't care about the future and want decisions made for the now only, and then feel free complaining in hindsight 2 years down the road.

Since when is Aaron Sanchez guaranteed to get hurt if he pitches in the rotation all year?

 

[bentharbour]

Is there any precedent of moving a young top-tier pitcher to the bullpen then back out to the rotation, if needed?

Absolutely no idea. Don't flame me for suggesting that we should do that because I didn't.

 

[Le Cobra]

It doesn't make sense to me to put Aaron Sanchez's arm in front of the Blue Jays winning a World Series. It just doesn't. Those who are making the foolish assumption that the jays making the playoffs next season will be a given - It isn't. Especially in baseball, the most unpredictable sport of all. It isn't only foolish to assume the blue jays have a guaranteed spot in the playoffs in the future, it is prideful. And pride comes before a fall.

 

[theaub]

Is there any precedent of moving a young top-tier pitcher to the bullpen then back out to the rotation, if needed?

Absolutely no idea. Don't flame me for suggesting that we should do that because I didn't.

This is the first time in history a pitcher with 20+ starts and a sub-3 ERA will be moved to the bullpen on a full-time basis.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Since when is Aaron Sanchez guaranteed to get hurt if he pitches in the rotation all year?

he's not I didn't say he was.

I also said yesterday I wasn't going to get into a for/against Sanchez argument(which I haven't, I'm just *****ing about the stupid, future doesn't exist until it gets here and then it'll be complained about garbage)

But when someone says they don't care about the future, and then hindsight complaining happens all the time from affects that were caused by decisions(in this case the decision to not lessen the risk on Sanchez, it's usually trade related) then I'm going to point it out.

There's no guarantees about anything with Aaron, but someone can state that without some completely all in everything now viewpoint.

 

[Cor]

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. If you don't care about the future right now, then you expect the team to be managed not caring about the future. So if Sanchez gets hurt next year or the year after you don't really have a right to complain about it but you wanted decisions made about that not caring about next year or the year after with Sanchez.

I've seen this over and over and over and I'm sick of it, so yes I'll feel free to point it out, thanks. People who don't care about the future and then the future gets here and then complain about the past moves which affected this future.

It's like they expect the team to be managed solely for the now, but somehow magically not affect the future.

Management is paid to care about the future so if you don't they're looking at it a different way then you, and way you'll be fine caring about when it gets here.

I don't understand how someone can say with a straight face they don't care about the future and way decisions made for the now only, and then feel free complaining in hindsight 2 years down the road.

So you are saying that I can't disagree with this move, because I may have complained 2 years down the line?

Ross Atkins? Is that you?

Seriously though, NO ONE would blame the Jays for not taking Sanchez out of the bullpen.

Just like no one blames Alex Anthopolous for emptying our farm system last July to go all in.


It's what contending teams do. We need to go for the World Series.


Scratch that.

We need to try and make the playoffs, because with no more Sanchez in the rotation, Stroman, Dickey and Liriano all having tough years, Estrada pitching injured, Donaldson and Tulo battling some injuries...

It's not a guarantee.

 

[Bloomberg]

I like the moves today. They are smart moves that builds for the future. I don't like trading top prospects for rentals because playoffs are so variable. We got Price last year and he wasn't the ace we needed in the playoffs. From a player's perspective, I can see frustration as this might be the last year we have Bautista and EE. As for Sanchez, I have no opinion. All I can say is that if we spent money in the offseason for a pitcher like Zimmerman, this problem might not be that big.

 

[Leaftors]

I think you've made the most sense in this thread man.

Just checking

 

[Cor]

Back to normal positivity, I still can't believe the Hutchinson deal. Shades of the Winnik deal for the Leafs

 

[Le Cobra]

This is the first time in history a pitcher with 20+ starts and a sub-3 ERA will be moved to the bullpen on a full-time basis.

There's a reason that it is the first time - because no other team would make such a bonehead move

 

[Canada4Gold]

So you are saying that I can't disagree with this move, because I may have complained 2 years down the line?

Ross Atkins? Is that you?

Seriously though, NO ONE would blame the Jays for not taking Sanchez out of the bullpen.

Just like no one blames Alex Anthopolous for emptying our farm system last July to go all in.


It's what contending teams do. We need to go for the World Series.


Scratch that.

We need to try and make the playoffs, because with no more Sanchez in the rotation, Stroman, Dickey and Liriano all having tough years, Estrada pitching injured, Donaldson and Tulo battling some injuries...

It's not a guarantee.

I'm not specifically arguing for/against anything here. There's no specifics. I just hate hearing a "I don't care about the future" statement because I know if management took that approach and made moves that failed there would be a hell of a lot of people here who in handing would suddenly care about the future. You may not be one of them, but you know what it's like, you know it and I know it.

Management is paid to care about the future too. Now is the biggest priority obviously, but the future exists too. And this isn't a last chance window team, this team can be very good for a while yet.