Top 5 (22 and under): NJD vs MTL vs DET vs OTT vs BUF vs ANA

[Mrb1p]

Did you forget Adam Fox exists?

Fox and many other can fit in with the last three but theyre mostly inconsequential to the conversation because of age.

 

[Nico Hischier]

Why are people acting like Dahlin is bad defensively and soft lmao? Are you guys even watching hockey or are you just debating on HFboards? This is insane. Dahlin is the 2nd most talented defender in the league. Hes a complete package and is the only thing thats gonna keep Makar from beating Lidstroms Norris count.

Makar
Dahlin
Byram
Nemec/Power/Seider

Fox and many other can fit in with the last three but theyre mostly inconsequential to the conversation because of age.

Age has nothing to do with winning Norris trophies

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Fox and many other can fit in with the last three but theyre mostly inconsequential to the conversation because of age.

Adam Fox is better than every defenseman you listed except for Makar, and he's only 8 months older than Makar...

I mean he just won the Norris as a 23 year old 2nd year defenseman and has 121 points in 133 games over the last 2 years while posting some of the best defensive metrics in the league.

He's way better than guys like Dahlin and Byram.

 

[Mrb1p]

Adam Fox is better than every defenseman you listed except for Makar, and he's only 8 months older than Makar...

I mean he just won the Norris as a 23 year old 2nd year defenseman and has 121 points in 133 games over the last 2 years while posting some of the best defensive metrics in the league.

He's way better than guys like Dahlin and Byram.

Ok

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Adam Fox is better than every defenseman you listed except for Makar, and he's only 8 months older than Makar...

I mean he just won the Norris as a 23 year old 2nd year defenseman and has 121 points in 133 games over the last 2 years while posting some of the best defensive metrics in the league.

He's way better than guys like Dahlin and Byram.

Maybe you can say he was better. I'm still going to take Dahlin going forward as he'll be 22 all season and on a decent team for the 1st time in his NHL career.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Maybe you can say he was better. I'm still going to take Dahlin going forward as he'll be 22 all season and on a decent team for the 1st time in his NHL career.

Naaah, Fox just won the Norris as a 22/23 year old. Dahlin may approach Fox offensively, but defensively Fox will always be far superior.

 

[lionsDen]

I’d say Ottawa now.

Naaah, Fox just won the Norris as a 22/23 year old. Dahlin may approach Fox offensively, but defensively Fox will always be far superior.

Nah dahlia is better then fox defensively from my views

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I’d say Ottawa now.


Nah dahlia is better then fox defensively from my views

That is one of the most factually incorrect things I have read on this site.

Fox is at worst a top 5 defenseman in the league in terms of shot and scoring chance suppression. He's better defensively than he is offensively IMO, though he's all-world in both ends of the ice.

It isn't even remotely close between the two:

 

[bsu]

I’d say Ottawa now.


Nah dahlia is better then fox defensively from my views

You're shitting me.

 

[Zach716]

The worst thing to happen in recent history on HF is people using JFresh (and a few others) generated adv stats cards without knowing how to apply them correctly, as if it is stats on a video game that can be used to curate a view that makes everyone an expert in Be a GM mode.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Naaah, Fox just won the Norris as a 22/23 year old. Dahlin may approach Fox offensively, but defensively Fox will always be far superior.

Um naaah, Dahlin will definitely be better offensively. Probably won't be too far behind defensively either.


And for your following post, I'm actually surprised I have to ask, but did you honestly think comparing the charts of Dahlin’s 18-20yo seasons on terrible Sabres teams under Housley and that one guy, to Fox's 22+ seasons was going to accomplish literally anything?

The teams and coaches were worse than most people seem to think. This is only the 2nd year with a good coach and 1st with a team that doesn't have a bunch of replacement level players (or worse).

 

[Jersey Fresh]

The worst thing to happen in recent history on HF is people using JFresh (and a few others) generated adv stats cards without knowing how to apply them correctly, as if it is stats on a video game that can be used to curate a view that makes everyone an expert in Be a GM mode.

How do you apply them correctly versus incorrectly?

 

[GOALOFSSON]

How do you apply them correctly versus incorrectly?

It's called context (assuming the charts are even worthwhile)

 

[Jersey Fresh]

It's called context (assuming the charts are even worthwhile)

Then what is it contextually that tells you Dahlin will be better than Fox?

I guess my point is if your argument is that the charts of course won't show Dahlin comparing favorably to Fox because of the team, the system, teammates, etc., then wouldn't you similarly not have the basis to say Dahlin will be better because he doesn't have the production/micro-stats/on-ice body of work to justify that prediction? Fox has put together the play on the ice, so while I guess you could conceivably say it's not fair to compare the two, you still wouldn't have the evidence to say Dahlin would be better even if the team/system issues were rectified.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

The worst thing to happen in recent history on HF is people using JFresh (and a few others) generated adv stats cards without knowing how to apply them correctly, as if it is stats on a video game that can be used to curate a view that makes everyone an expert in Be a GM mode.

Please explain to me how to apply them correctly.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Please explain to me how to apply them correctly.

You can start by not comparing 18-20yo seasons in very unfortunate circumstances to the seasons of a player who was older at the time than the other player is even now...

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Um naaah, Dahlin will definitely be better offensively. Probably won't be too far behind defensively either.


And for your following post, I'm actually surprised I have to ask, but did you honestly think comparing the charts of Dahlin’s 18-20yo seasons on terrible Sabres teams under Housley and that one guy, to Fox's 22+ seasons was going to accomplish literally anything?

The teams and coaches were worse than most people seem to think. This is only the 2nd year with a good coach and 1st with a team that doesn't have a bunch of replacement level players (or worse).

Dahlin has a looooong way to go to catch Fox. Fox is only 2 years older and just dropped 74 points in 78 games....

 

[Zach716]

Please explain to me how to apply them correctly.

You can start by not comparing 18-20yo seasons in very unfortunate circumstances to the seasons of a player who was older at the time than the other player is even now...

It's also pointless in the case of looking at Dahlin's metrics under Kreuger. When you get garbage in data, you are going to get garbage out data in return. This is a kid who joined the league at 18 as a defenseman who had a coach who wouldn't let him cross his side of the blue line. It's beyond pointless from a comparison standpoint and something that fans are just gonna have to use their eyes alone on to see his capabilities.

We will see this year with a promising team and a coach that lets him play his game.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Then what is it contextually that tells you Dahlin will be better than Fox?

I guess my point is if your argument is that the charts of course won't show Dahlin comparing favorably to Fox because of the team, the system, teammates, etc., then wouldn't you similarly not have the basis to say Dahlin will be better because he doesn't have the production/micro-stats/on-ice body of work to justify that prediction? Fox has put together the play on the ice, so while I guess you could conceivably say it's not fair to compare the two, you still wouldn't have the evidence to say Dahlin would be better even if the team/system issues were rectified.

I mean you can just watch the player/team. You can see Dahlin’s skillset pretty easily. While still taking age into account (like 18-20yo seasons as a defenseman are rare enough as is) you can see a coach not letting his defense attack. Not sure how this one would be reflected in the stats. During the years posted the teams were also especially bad from a player perspective outside of the top line. Hard to play at that age on teams that bad.

For some strange reason a bunch of people have forgotten just how talented Dahlin actually is. For reasons I explained earlier, even the "Charts" will be singing a different tune for Dahlin this year. Much different tune.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You can start by not comparing 18-20yo seasons in very unfortunate circumstances to the seasons of a player who was older at the time than the other player is even now...

The guy I was responding to said that Dahlin is already better defensively than Fox, so the context of age and situation are irrelevant.

Also, Fox's 21/22 y/o season >> Dahlin's 21/22 y/o season:

Fox in 2019-20
70gp 42p (28 ESP)
+22 (2nd best on team, led all Rangers defenseman)
15th among defenseman in scoring (9th in ES points) despite only playing 18:56 TOI and only 1:59 PP TOI.

Dahlin in 2021-22
80gp 53p (32 ESP)
-22 (Team worst)
13th among defenseman in scoring (26th in ES points) with 24:01 TOI and 3:01 PP TOI.

Fox was essentially just as good (if not better) offensively despite getting way less ice time (especially on the PP).

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Dahlin has a looooong way to go to catch Fox. Fox is only 2 years older and just dropped 74 points in 78 games....

You're saying that like it's not to be expected for Dahlin 2 years out. Based not only on the player but how loaded the team will be...

Dahlin should end up being PPG+ on some great Sabres teams in the not too distant future.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

I mean you can just watch the player/team. You can see Dahlin’s skillset pretty easily. While still taking age into account (like 18-20yo seasons as a defenseman are rare enough as is) you can see a coach not letting his defense attack. Not sure how this one would be reflected in the stats. During the years posted the teams were also especially bad from a player perspective outside of the top line. Hard to play at that age on teams that bad.

For some strange reason a bunch of people have forgotten just how talented Dahlin actually is. For reasons I explained earlier, even the "Charts" will be singing a different tune for Dahlin this year. Much different tune.

Guess we'll see this year, for sure.

I just don't find "just watch the player/team" to be a very convincing, reasoned basis to say the guy will be better than a 23-year-old Norris winner, but hey. There's nothing to actually tether that opinion to if the only foundation is all the things he wasn't able to do under a "bad" coach.

 

[Guy Tetreault]

The guy I was responding to said that Dahlin is already better defensively than Fox, so the context of age and situation are irrelevant.

Also, Fox's 21/22 y/o season >> Dahlin's 21/22 y/o season:

Fox in 2019-20
70gp 42p (28 ESP)
+22 (2nd best on team, led all Rangers defenseman)
15th among defenseman in scoring (9th in ES points) despite only playing 18:56 TOI and only 1:59 PP TOI.

Dahlin in 2021-22
80gp 53p (32 ESP)
-22 (Team worst)
13th among defenseman in scoring (26th in ES points) with 24:01 TOI and 3:01 PP TOI.

Fox was essentially just as good (if not better) offensively despite getting way less ice time (especially on the PP).

Dahlin often played late in the game when Buffalo lost by 1 or 2 goals. Buffalo withdrew their goaltender and the opposing Team scores a goal In the empty net. So Dahlin had a record of minus 1.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Dahlin often played late in the game when Buffalo lost by 1 or 2 goals. Buffalo withdrew their goaltender and the opposing Team scores a goal In the empty net. So Dahlin had a record of minus 1.

He was a combined -6 in all EN situations, and -16 otherwise.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

The guy I was responding to said that Dahlin is already better defensively than Fox, so the context of age and situation are irrelevant.

Also, Fox's 21/22 y/o season >> Dahlin's 21/22 y/o season:

Fox in 2019-20
70gp 42p (28 ESP)
+22 (2nd best on team, led all Rangers defenseman)
15th among defenseman in scoring (9th in ES points) despite only playing 18:56 TOI and only 1:59 PP TOI.

Dahlin in 2021-22
80gp 53p (32 ESP)
-22 (Team worst)
13th among defenseman in scoring (26th in ES points) with 24:01 TOI and 3:01 PP TOI.

Fox was essentially just as good (if not better) offensively despite getting way less ice time (especially on the PP).

Not that I agree that Dahlin is better defensively right now but you could have at least used the most recent season.



But again seriously? Even with what was shown Fox's season wasn't all that better. It still ignores Fox getting to not develop in a shit environment the previous two years and how bad our team was the first half of last season. We were expected to finish last again by some.

Guess we'll see this year, for sure.

I just don't find "just watch the player/team" to be a very convincing, reasoned basis to say the guy will be better than a 23-year-old Norris winner, but hey. There's nothing to actually tether that opinion to if the only foundation is all the things he wasn't able to do under a "bad" coach.

See the way you're sautéing sounds as if you don't fully appreciate the mess that was Krueger. That's fine, but he wasn't just a "bad" coach.

The teams at the start were worse than bad also and they never got much better until the last half of the season.

Finally Dahlin is just a special player. Literally anyone else and ya sure, but Dahlin combined with the team/coach factor plus what we've seen, ya I'll take Dahlin over Fox.

But we'll see in the next couple of years.