Top 5 (22 and under): NJD vs MTL vs DET vs OTT vs BUF vs ANA

[Mrb1p]

Yikes, this list is putrid. That's all the keystrokes I am going to spend on it.

Let me guess, you take offense to the Zegras and McTavish rankings ? I really wonder why lmao

 

[bsu]

Let me guess, you take offense to the Zegras and McTavish rankings ? I really wonder why lmao

Don't try to put your homer-ism on me. You're deflecting.

 

[Mrb1p]

Del

Don't try to put your homer-ism on me. You're deflecting.

My homerism ?

Realistically this list was off the top of my head and Id move the non-nhl guys quite a bit (McTavish was way too low, so was Edvinsson, Power.)

How do you deal with calling me a homer while I have Guhle and Dach super low and guys like Drysdale and Nemec much higher than anyone else ? Maybe its not homerism and just that my evaluationis different, be it wrong or right, of yours and other people?

 

[Just Linda]

Id rank them

Buffalo - NJD - Habs - Detroit - Ottawa - Anaheim

I just don't have a good feeling about Ottawa's young core. They seem like a group of really good players without elite qualities, I worry about their rebuild. Anaheim just lacked the elite prospect most the others had, they are still early in their rebuild though. Detroit is quite a bit ahead of the other two, Im a bit more skittish on Cossa and Berggen but Seider and Raymond are real nice. For the Habs Im a lot lower of Guhle, Dach (now, I was high on him 3 years ago), and Slavkovsky but much higher on Suzuki than most. NJD and Buffalo were quite a bit ahead of everyone else for me, I see Powers and Dahlin having the potential to be top 10 in their position across the league, didnt see anyone on NJD having that potential but I think NJD have the better overall crop.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Very constructive thanks

Caufield just had a stretch of 40 games where he scored at a 50 goals (Yes, goals, not points.) pace to finish the season and Suzuki has the best playoffs resume of everyone listed here and is actually a 70 points 2-way 1C... All that while playing with two good Dmen that could move the puck up and a rotating door of winger on their wing (Hoffman and Pitlick, mostly, lmao.)

The fact that i have Drysdale, Nemec and Raymond ahead of Caufield probably shows im not being a homer at all here. I understand that some might consider Zegras, Stutzle and Tkachuk and they wouldn't be wrong.

I don't have much faith in Dach, Id trade a bunch of players for him, but I can't deny he's very talented, probably more so than a lot of players on this list. He's actually pretty freaking low considering he was just a top 3 pick in 2019 and was just traded for a 22 yo top 4 D/Frank Nazar/A lottery pick, lol.

Suzuki is a 2way 70 point center.... but has never actually hit 70 points? and a career -50... isnt exactly what id hope for in a legit 2 way guy. Sure he has playoffs over everyone, but thats also because most these players havnt been in the playoffs before, kinda a dumb arguement.

So your teling me caufield is potentially streaky?

The fact that you have Drysdale ahead of Zegras is silly, because there isnt a duck fan alive that would share that thought process.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Del


My homerism ?

Realistically this list was off the top of my head and Id move the non-nhl guys quite a bit (McTavish was way too low, so was Edvinsson, Power.)

How do you deal with calling me a homer while I have Guhle and Dach super low and guys like Drysdale and Nemec much higher than anyone else ? Maybe its not homerism and just that my evaluationis different, be it wrong or right, of yours and other people?

Maybe you should have done it by tiers, not individual players.

Dach near Tkachuck is kinda hilarious.... you use playoffs as a reason to overrate Suzuki.... but then you disregard actual regular season stats.... and throw Dach ahead of cozens, even tho cozens has been much better than dach at the nhl lvl.

I think Edvinsson is better than nemec.... but you have edvinsson down in no mans land.

 

[Mrb1p]

Suzuki is a 2way 70 point center.... but has never actually hit 70 points? and a career -50... isnt exactly what id hope for in a legit 2 way guy. Sure he has playoffs over everyone, but thats also because most these players havnt been in the playoffs before, kinda a dumb arguement.

So your teling me caufield is potentially streaky?

The fact that you have Drysdale ahead of Zegras is silly, because there isnt a duck fan alive that would share that thought process.

Sigh.

Patrice Bergeron was a minus 20 in his first 3 years in the league.

Caufield isn't streaky, he played for the worst coach, potentially ever. Literally every player stopped producing under Ducharme. Also, Caufield had more goals in the playoffs while Ducharme had COVID under Richardson than he had with Ducharme regular season and POs included.

I dont care about Ducks fans, this is my list, my opinion, formed by my own viewings.

You either a) havent watched much of the Habs (Wouldnt blame you, they suck and were extremely boring to watch.) Or are b) being purposely obtuse.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Sigh.

Patrice Bergeron was a minus 20 in his first 3 years in the league.

Caufield isn't streaky, he played for the worst coach, potentially ever. Literally every player stopped producing under Ducharme. Also, Caufield had more goals in the playoffs while Ducharme had COVID under Richardson than he had with Ducharme regular season and POs included.

I dont care about Ducks fans, this is my list, my opinion, formed by my own viewings.

You either a) havent watched much of the Habs (Wouldnt blame you, they suck and were extremely boring to watch.) Or are b) being purposely obtuse.

Nah i mostly just think your list is crap... and im talking to you as a hockey fan not a duck fan.

Only thing i mentioned about anaheim was that no fan in anaheim has Drysdale over Zegras.

I even gave you a tip, to make it read a little better by putting players in Tiers rather than an individual ranking.

 

[Xspyrit]

Ottawa likely has a higher ranking If Pinto isnt lost for the season 5 games in ...Kid is a player....If that top 9 is together and healthy its going to light up the Atlantic

Even worse than that, he was injured after 1:20 in his 4th game on October 21st. He tried to come back on November 13th but re-injured himself after 4:51. So he basically played 3 games last season. But hockeydb.com says 1 point in 5 games which means "meh prospect"

The Devils defense wasn’t bad last season. You’re tricked into thinking it was because our goalies couldn’t stop a beach ball. Every metric except GA backs this up

In all the games/periods I saw (mostly vs Sens + Habs), Devils seemed fairly easy to score against and it wasn't just because of goaltending. It reminds me of people blaming Sens goalies for their historically putrid defense at the start of the 2020-21 season.

I'm sure a lot of goals given up by the Devils was a result of the goalies being left out to dry. Of course a guy like prime Luongo would cover a lot of these deficiencies but it's not an automatic for the vast majority of goalies.

 

[EverTheCynic]

Even worse than that, he was injured after 1:20 in his 4th game on October 21st. He tried to come back on November 13th but re-injured himself after 4:51. So he basically played 3 games last season. But hockeydb.com says 1 point in 5 games which means "meh prospect"



In all the games/periods I saw (mostly vs Sens + Habs), Devils seemed fairly easy to score against and it wasn't just because of goaltending. It reminds me of people blaming Sens goalies for their historically putrid defense at the start of the 2020-21 season.

I'm sure a lot of goals given up by the Devils was a result of the goalies being left out to dry. Of course a guy like prime Luongo would cover a lot of these deficiencies but it's not an automatic for the vast majority of goalies.

Naw dude, theyre 100% right. Jersey was ok defensively and had atrocious goaltending. This is a heatmap of their defensive performance last season, and then one for strictly saves.

Dzone coverage was ok. Not great, but not bad at all. Goaltending was horrendous.

 

[bert]

You had Tkachuk 19th. already producing at a 30/40 pace while bringing physicality and leadership abilities. You have no ability to evaluate.

Let me guess, you take offense to the Zegras and McTavish rankings ? I really wonder why

Naw dude, theyre 100% right. Jersey was ok defensively and had atrocious goaltending. This is a heatmap of their defensive performance last season, and then one for strictly saves.





View attachment 572823View attachment 572824

Dzone coverage was ok. Not great, but not bad at all. Goaltending was horrendous.

Heat maps or not you watch games and they let teams get to the net very easily and trade chances all game long. Watching the games still matters.

 

[ninetyeight]

Heat maps or not you watch games and they let teams get to the net very easily and trade chances all game long. Watching the games still matters.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Devils fans watch their team way more than you. Maybe they just looked terrible in the few games you've seen (against Ottawa)? The only reason heatmaps and xGA vs GA stats are brought up is that you don't believe the people who've watched all 82 Devils games. The Devils defence was certainly not good, but it wasn't bottom of the league like you suggested. The goaltending however was, and every stat backs that up.

Why do you hate the Devils? I'm trying to root for the Senators but their fans keep shitting on my #1 team and our fans. We are not in the same division and both franchises haven't won anything in a long while. Both have incredibly exciting young core and young prospects. We should be rooting for each other against the Leafs, Caps, Tampa, Pittsburgh etc that have dominated the league for a while now.

 

[Clam Jensen]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Devils fans watch their team way more than you. Maybe they just looked terrible in the few games you've seen (against Ottawa)? The only reason heatmaps and xGA vs GA stats are brought up is that you don't believe the people who've watched all 82 Devils games. The Devils defence was certainly not good, but it wasn't bottom of the league like you suggested. The goaltending however was, and every stat backs that up.

Why do you hate the Devils? I'm trying to root for the Senators but their fans keep shitting on my #1 team and our fans. We are not in the same division and both franchises haven't won anything in a long while. Both have incredibly exciting young core and young prospects. We should be rooting for each other against the Leafs, Caps, Tampa, Pittsburgh etc that have dominated the league for a while now.

B-b-but the eye test!!!

 

[Xspyrit]

Naw dude, theyre 100% right. Jersey was ok defensively and had atrocious goaltending. This is a heatmap of their defensive performance last season, and then one for strictly saves.

Dzone coverage was ok. Not great, but not bad at all. Goaltending was horrendous.

okay "dude". I'm not against advanced stats, I think they have to be considered and actually I was already in this when it first came out long time ago. The sites I used back then don't even exist anymore but after playing and following the game for a long time, my opinion is that these stats just can't explain the whole sport

So, again, based on every game OR period that I have seen the Devils play last season (against Sens + Habs for sure and some random games on networks here), their defensive coverage and "hockey systems" in the defensive zone were far from optimal (maybe it was just coincidence and they were only bad when I watched them?). So they were maybe not as bad as the Sens have been in the recent past (like first month of 2020-21 for example) but still way below average. Like I said, goalies can sometimes cover it up partially but Devils goaltending was below average too. Improving "TEAM DEFENSE" has to come from the whole team, including coaching and goalies

Why do you hate the Devils? I'm trying to root for the Senators but their fans keep shitting on my #1 team and our fans.

Where? Is it because, for example in the case here, some fans say the Devils defense wasn't good last season? I don't see this as "shitting"... What am I missing?

 

[ninetyeight]

Where? Is it because, for example in the case here, some fans say the Devils defense wasn't good last season? I don't see this as "shitting"... What am I missing?

It wasn't "not good", it was "one of the worst defensive teams in hockey" . Which is just not true if you look at high danger chances and expected goals against vs actual goals against.

But combination of threads really. Our fanbase was called the most delusional by many people in the Bratt vs Connor thread. Just a week or so ago some guy called us toxic fanbase in our subboard. I don't know how many were Sens fans, but even in this thread the tone is quite dismissive of Devils players (even when they are leading the poll). Granted some of our fans come across pretty arrogant here too, but they are just so used to getting trolled and talked down on (mostly by other metro fanbases) that they might be extra defensive and aggro by default.

I just hate that even polls among league's bottom teams it always goes hostile and vicious.

 

[NyQuil]

I just hate that even polls among league's bottom teams it always goes hostile and vicious.

It's really dumb because it's a lot of folks getting emotional about projections.

In a few months, the teams that have it will prove it.

The reason this poll is interesting is that all the teams objectively sucked last year but they all also have reason for optimism in the months and years ahead.

Hopefully the positive aspect is people learning more about the other rivals in the thread.

 

[Clam Jensen]

It's really dumb because it's a lot of folks getting emotional about projections.

In a few months, the teams that have it will prove it.

The reason this poll is interesting is that all the teams objectively sucked last year but they all also have reason for optimism in the months and years ahead.

Hopefully the positive aspect is people learning more about the other rivals in the thread.

Yea we’re all a bunch of salty sensitive bitches lol.

 

[Xspyrit]

It wasn't "not good", it was "one of the worst defensive teams in hockey" . Which is just not true if you look at high danger chances and expected goals against vs actual goals against.

But combination of threads really. Our fanbase was called the most delusional by many people in the Bratt vs Connor thread. Just a week or so ago some guy called us toxic fanbase in our subboard. I don't know how many were Sens fans, but even in this thread the tone is quite dismissive of Devils players (even when they are leading the poll). Granted some of our fans come across pretty arrogant here too, but they are just so used to getting trolled and talked down on (mostly by other metro fanbases) that they might be extra defensive and aggro by default.

I just hate that even polls among league's bottom teams it always goes hostile and vicious.

I'm personally very interested in arguing the content but I often get emotional responses because some people don't like the points I am making. But I don't see why it happens aince I am basing myself on pure information and/or observation. I am not trying to trigger emotional responses and I don't exaggerate with hyperbole to prove a point. I find that hyperbole actually brings a lot of those emotional responses. I might be in minority but would prefer if we could argue things like robots would. That's my approach but somehow some people still get mad at it lol

So don't worry I understand if you get annoyed by some of the responses you get. On behalf of all Sens fans, I am sorry if some of our responses have been too much. Knowing the HF Sens fanbase, I find that Sens fans here are well temperate in general so I'm not sure if a lot of the trolling you get comes from them. In the end, we all have to remember that this is just an entertainment and not much in the grand scheme of things of all the bad stuff happening in this world.

By the way, I voted Devils in this poll. I think both the Devils and Sens are very well positioned to be the next powerhouses in the East. Competition will be ferocious though

 

[Golden_Jet]

Del


My homerism ?

Realistically this list was off the top of my head and Id move the non-nhl guys quite a bit (McTavish was way too low, so was Edvinsson, Power.)

How do you deal with calling me a homer while I have Guhle and Dach super low and guys like Drysdale and Nemec much higher than anyone else ? Maybe its not homerism and just that my evaluationis different, be it wrong or right, of yours and other people?

Ya homerism ,hate, or jealousy for not drafting him I’m not sure.
When you have Tkachuk that low.

 

[Mrb1p]

Ya homerism ,hate, or jealousy for not drafting him I’m not sure.
When you have Tkachuk that low.

I had Tkachuk 9th overall in 2018 before the draft, so nah, theres no jealousy or hate lol.

I think he's a fine player and in hindsight I wish the Habs did draft him because thats clearly what they wanted (A ready made player to compete now) but I think it's not unfair to saw all these guys have higher upside than him.

He's a high-end 2nd liner, low end first liner, it's not like he's Sidney Crosby. I know what he brings is valuable but its unclear how valuable it really is.

 

[Pinto Bean]

Go read the Tanner Jeannot Trade thread to see how much value a player like Tkachuk has. And respectfully, Tkachuk is Jeannot on steroids.

 

[topshelf15]

How about a list 25 and younger???or 24 and younger....Making a list that favors a certain element to your team is kinda bush and doesnt represent the entire picture on actual team strengths

 

[GOALOFSSON]

How about a list 25 and younger???or 24 and younger....Making a list that favors a certain element to your team is kinda bush and doesnt represent the entire picture on actual team strengths

Same with limiting the list to 5 players

 

[Zach716]

Sigh.

Patrice Bergeron was a minus 20 in his first 3 years in the league.

Caufield isn't streaky, he played for the worst coach, potentially ever. Literally every player stopped producing under Ducharme. Also, Caufield had more goals in the playoffs while Ducharme had COVID under Richardson than he had with Ducharme regular season and POs included.

I dont care about Ducks fans, this is my list, my opinion, formed by my own viewings.

You either a) havent watched much of the Habs (Wouldnt blame you, they suck and were extremely boring to watch.) Or are b) being purposely obtuse.

What does Patrice Bergeron in his first 3 years then going on to be one of the consistently best defensive players to ever play in the NHL have anything to do with Suzuki’s play and how it is currently? Can everyone just include Bergeron’s first 3 years into their young players season discussions to claim they are going to become defensive prodigies now?

 

[Xspyrit]

Same with limiting the list to 5 players

Yes, I would personally like to compare a top-15 for 25 y/o and under (U-26)

Tim Stutzle (20)
Josh Norris (23)
Alex DeBrincat (24)
Drake Batherson (24)
Brady Tkachuk (22)
Shane Pinto (21)
Ridly Greig (19)
Alex Formenton (22)

Thomas Chabot (25)
Jake Sanderson (20)
Jacob Bernard-Docker (22)
Lassi Thomson (21)
Erik Brannstrom (22)
Tyler Kleven (20)

Mads Sogaard (21)

What would be the Sabres top-15? (8 forwards, 6 D-men and 1 goalie)