Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[ChiTownPhilly]

I'm not entirely sure Mikita was the 2nd best player on the Blackhawks. Glenn Hall definitely has a case there.

For example, the THN Top 100 rated the two of them back to back - Hall 16th, Mikita 17th: List of 100 greatest NHL players by The Hockey News - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To the surprise of absolutely no-one, I'm sure, I have Glenn Hall comfortably ahead of Mikita.

I'll post details when I'm able to more readily access my information- but I took a medium-dive into Glenn Hall's playoffs, to see if there was any justification to my belief that he's not as bad a playoff performer as is generally believed. I saw the 23 playoff series in which he had a role- and discovered his record was 9-14. That's consistent with a generalized impression that he was no great shakes in the playoffs... but sometimes you gotta take into account who he was up against! Prime Plante (and there were a couple of times he actually outduelled him). Sawchuk. Bower. Worsley. Vachon. Young Cheevers. (Not a strong HoFer, admittedly, but Hall was closing in on 40 at the time of that encounter.) His teams bested teams backstopped by Harry Lumley and young Parent. Hall-of-Famers-- and frequently upper-division ones. I'll pit that against whatever Brodeur was up against in his playoff-runs.

And before I leave the goalie-corner entirely, that plumb-bob once again reminded me that we might not discuss any more maddeningly inconsistent performer- perhaps in the entire project- than Terry Sawchuk. Entered the league with a furnace-hot peak, then would later go on to alternate otherworldly performances with cadaverine ones- sometimes in consecutive games! Poor enough to make Detroit play goalie-carousel, even.

I love me some ultra-hot goaltender peaks, really I do. But boy, does that guy extract a price for the experience.

 

[MXD]

Each to his own, but H2H goaltending is, to me, completely irrelevant, since netminders never square of directly against each others, except during line brawls.

EDIT : Of course, that doesn't mean Hall wasn't facing great teams.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Each to his own, but H2H goaltending is, to me, completely irrelevant, since netminders never square of directly against each others, except during line brawls.

Amen.

Never, ever, use H2H netminding results to drive a narrative.

I'm far more concerned with who was in front of the goalie and who was coming at him.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Amen.

Never, ever, use H2H netminding results to drive a narrative.

I'm far more concerned with who was in front of the goalie and who was coming at him.

couldn't agree more.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I saw the 23 playoff series in which he had a role- and discovered his record was 9-14. That's consistent with a generalized impression that he was no great shakes in the playoffs... but sometimes you gotta take into account who he was up against!

Wins and losses are a team stat. Mikita may be just as responsible for Chicago's playoff record in the 60's as Hall. Or at least, the defensemen and coaching staff.

 

[ImporterExporter]

And to be clear, if folks want to put Hall over Brodeur I'm not going to be upset at all. They're quite close in my book, I just think Brodeur was the more modern version of Glenn (with MB a better postseason goalie) and Brodeur's career overlapped greatly with Roy and Hasek, two guys already well off the board now. Brodeur was actually facing stiffer competition for goalie accolades regardless of how they fared head to head in real matchups, which isn't all that important as has been said my multiple people.

Just to re-post my look at Brodeur in case anyone missed it from earlier in the week:

Martin Brodeur:

I have a ton of respect for what Martin Brodeur accomplished in his long and illustrious career. I've felt the boards often underrated Brodeur because of the era, teams he played on, and more importantly the defensive structure of those teams. While those were certainly all factors to one degree or another, I think it is quite disrespectful to Brodeur on the whole.

@pappyline since he had asked about Brodeur yesterday. Didn't want him to miss my review.


Consider some of the insane numbers:

-691 wins. Most all time. Next closest? Patrick Roy who has 140 fewer. 3rd place is more than 200 wins behind.

-125 shutouts which shattered what many thought was an unbreakable record of 103 by Terry Sawchuk.

People try and use his games played (both single season and career) as some sort of negative. I have a completely different view. The fact that Broduer was so durable for as long as he was, is remarkable.

-He played 70 or more games IN A SINGLE SEASON 12 times! Patrick Roy did that exactly 0 times. Dominik Hasek did that ONCE. To have that kind of workload and still produce good to great numbers consistently is amazing to me. He was shouldered with a huge amount of work, year in and year out, and didn't waver much.

-He won 4 Vezina's. 2 during the end of the lower scoring dead puck era, and 2 directly after the lockout when scoring jumped considerably. Look at his Vezina win in 2006-07. The only goalie to face more shots was Miikka Kiprusoff and Brodeur had the best SV% of any goalie with at least 50 starts. He also had 12 shutouts, 4 more than Hasek. Kind of debunks the notion he couldn't put up excellent numbers while facing high volume doesn't it?

-Besides his 4 Vezina wins, he was a finalist another 5 times.

-He was top 5 in Hart voting 7 times.

-He was a 7 time post season all star, which is one more than Roy.

-Brodeur was spectacular at the 2002 Olympic games, where he helped Canada win gold.

-Was again amazing in 2004 at the World Cup of Hockey, where he allowed only 5 goals in 5 games, posting a .951 SV%.


Here's a look at some advanced studies:


TABLE 1 - CAREER SAVE PERCENTAGE (1956-2018)

Player	Min	SA	Saves	Sv%
Ken Dryden*	24,105	11,301	10,559	93.4%
Dominik Hasek*	44,465	22,090	20,434	92.5%
Tony Esposito*	54,387	27,782	25,613	92.2%
Patrick Roy*	62,369	30,475	28,036	92.0%
Bernie Parent*	37,214	18,100	16,650	92.0%
Johnny Bower*	31,983	16,202	14,885	91.9%
Billy Smith*	39,460	19,617	17,988	91.7%
Glenn Resch	33,023	16,442	15,066	91.6%
Jacques Plante*	51,842	24,846	22,758	91.6%
Tim Thomas	24,448	13,037	11,932	91.5%
Roberto Luongo	58,379	31,101	28,445	91.5%
Pete Peeters	28,397	12,737	11,644	91.4%
Tuukka Rask	27,263	13,228	12,093	91.4%
Henrik Lundqvist	48,956	24,127	22,040	91.3%
Glenn Hall*	61,347	29,793	27,213	91.3%
Don Edwards	26,797	13,100	11,965	91.3%
Tomas Vokoun	40,424	21,541	19,670	91.3%
John Vanbiesbrouck	52,351	26,207	23,927	91.3%
Sergei Bobrovsky	24,386	12,428	11,338	91.2%
Dan Bouchard	38,978	19,112	17,435	91.2%
Guy Hebert	29,289	15,905	14,508	91.2%
Cory Schneider	22,421	11,091	10,115	91.2%
Reggie Lemelin	28,584	14,100	12,858	91.2%
Mike Palmateer	20,586	10,904	9,943	91.2%
Ed Belfour*	57,444	26,554	24,203	91.1%
Kelly Hrudey	39,839	21,428	19,530	91.1%
Doug Favell	21,789	11,767	10,722	91.1%
Denis Herron	26,221	14,567	13,271	91.1%
Andy Moog	41,852	20,260	18,457	91.1%
Braden Holtby	22,158	11,180	10,185	91.1%
Daren Puppa	25,373	12,592	11,471	91.1%
Gump Worsley*	49,640	26,383	24,024	91.1%
Curtis Joseph	55,370	28,577	26,022	91.1%
Corey Crawford	24,814	12,122	11,038	91.1%
Glen Hanlon	26,624	13,717	12,490	91.1%
Martin Brodeur*	77,173	34,261	31,192	91.0%
Terry Sawchuk*	42,551	20,631	18,609	90.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This table lists all 117 goalies who have faced at least 20,000 (adjusted) shots from 1955-56 to present. That's the equivalent of around 330 games.

-Brodeur's save percentage is pretty solid, just 0.3 points below up for vote Hall, who i think is a slightly better regular season goalie, but as we go into more studies, will show that gap isn't all that big. Also, Brodeur suffers a little bit here because his minutes and shots faced are much higher than any other goalie all time. Generally the longer a career and more volume you face, especially as one ages, the lower your save percentage will end up being. Sawchuk looks poor here but unfortunately we only have save% data going back to 1956 at this point so that erases most of Terry's dominant peak. He'd be much higher on the list I'd wager but don't think he'd pass the other 2 given this is a career based study.


GOALS VERSUS THRESHOLD - CAREER @Hockey Outsider study with his overview below

Player	GVT
Patrick Roy*	1,145.7
Tony Esposito*	1,098.9
Roberto Luongo	1,001.9
Martin Brodeur*	960.5
Dominik Hasek*	942.0
Glenn Hall*	924.9
Jacques Plante*	834.5
Ken Dryden*	586.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Goals versus threshold compares the number of goals each goalie saves/allows, relative to a theoretical borderline NHLer. I've arbitrarily set the threshold save percentage in each season at 97.5% of the league average. This isn't scientific, but it looks about right. The theory is any goalie who's about 97.5% as good as the league average is just below the cusp of being an NHL player. If they're playing in the NHL, they're most likely a prospect who the team is trying to develop; an old veteran with an expensive contract; or an injury replacement. Since there are plenty of goalies in the minor leagues who are roughly at this level, a GM should be able to get a netminder of this quality for minimal consideration.

The reason I like this statistic is it shows that there's value in being an average (or even below-average) goalie. Even a below-average goalie has value in the sense that the coach isn't force to play someone who isn't even NHL calibre.

This statistic tends to reward players with longer career. Ken Dryden dominated the first two tables, but he fares much worse here.

Martin Brodeur, who spent a long stretch of his career stopping the puck at close to league average level, skyrockets to 4th place, as there was significant value in him playing so many games, even if it was at a lower level than, say, Dryden or Hasek.


PEAK SAVE PERCENTAGE (1956-2018) @Hockey Outsider study with my comments below table

Ken Dryden*	93.4%
Dominik Hasek*	93.2%
Tony Esposito*	92.9%
Patrick Roy*	92.9%
Bernie Parent*	92.6%
Glenn Resch	92.3%
John Vanbiesbrouck	92.2%
Jacques Plante*	92.1%
Ed Belfour*	92.0%
Roberto Luongo	92.0%
Dan Bouchard	91.9%
Martin Brodeur*	91.9%
Glenn Hall*	91.9%
Terry Sawchuk*	90.3%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-It's great to see Brodeur fare well in a peak study based around save %, because he generally is viewed by the average person as a career/longevity guy. But he stacks up well with Hall and they are both just marginally below Jacques Plante for reference.


GOALS VERSUS AVERAGE - PEAK HO study again! Amazing work.

Dominik Hasek*	365.5
Tony Esposito*	325.1
Ken Dryden*	319.9
Patrick Roy*	269.5
Bernie Parent*	239.4
Jacques Plante*	218.8
Roberto Luongo	209.1
Glenn Hall*	196.5
John Vanbiesbrouck	194.1
Curtis Joseph	192.3
Martin Brodeur*	186.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Hall edges Brodeur here but again, it would seem that Marty is usually either right on Hall's level among these regular season studies, or just below him by a small margin.



What about the postseason?

-He won 3 Stanley Cups. and was spectacular especially in 1995. HO can certainly chime in with more detail. How he doesn't have a Smythe is beyond me.

-2nd all time in playoff wins. (Roy)

-2nd all time in playoff shutouts. (Roy)

-2nd all time in shots against. (Roy is way ahead in 1st, Marty way ahead of 3rd place)


Career Save Percentage postseason - minimum 1,000 adjusted shots

* This table is now updated for 2018

Goalie	Shots	Saves	Sv%
Tim Thomas	1,526	1,409	92.4%
Olaf Kolzig	1,446	1,330	92.0%
Patrick Roy*	7,218	6,638	92.0%
John Vanbiesbrouck	2,030	1,865	91.9%
Ken Wregget	1,767	1,622	91.8%
Dominik Hasek	3,422	3,140	91.7%
Ed Belfour*	4,641	4,256	91.7%
Braden Holtby	2,374	2,177	91.7%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere	1,546	1,416	91.6%
Martin Jones	1,129	1,033	91.5%
Craig Anderson	1,482	1,356	91.5%
Tuukka Rask	1,958	1,790	91.4%
Kirk McLean	2,099	1,918	91.4%
Patrick Lalime	1,105	1,010	91.4%
Cam Ward	1,137	1,038	91.3%
Dwayne Roloson	1,478	1,348	91.2%
Jonathan Quick	2,445	2,228	91.1%
Felix Potvin	2,186	1,992	91.1%
Curtis Joseph	4,044	3,685	91.1%
Martin Brodeur	5,439	4,953	91.1%
Grant Fuhr*	3,966	3,610	91.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-This is an older table that doesn't include the players dating back to 1956, but perhaps @Hockey Outsider has the updated data including the 06 goalies like Hall, Plante and Sawchuk.


Top Thirty Playoffs – minimum 1,000 minutes @Hockey Outsider great work again

* updated for 2018

Goalie	Cup?	Smythe?	Year	Team	Minutes	Shots	Saves	Sv%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		1995	NJD	1,222	475	448	94.4%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1993	MTL	1,293	611	577	94.3%
Pelle Lindbergh			1985	PHI	1,008	468	441	94.3%
Ed Belfour*			1995	CHI	1,014	491	462	93.9%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1986	MTL	1,218	489	458	93.7%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere		Yes	2003	MDA	1,407	760	711	93.6%
Patrick Roy*			1989	MTL	1,206	521	488	93.6%
Reggie Lemelin			1988	BOS	1,027	442	414	93.5%
Olaf Kolzig			1998	WSH	1,351	770	720	93.5%
John Vanbiesbrouck			1996	FLA	1,332	720	672	93.4%
Tim Thomas	Yes	Yes	2011	BOS	1,542	789	736	93.3%
Jonathan Quick	Yes	Yes	2012	LAK	1,238	546	509	93.2%
Dominik Hasek			1999	BUF	1,217	616	574	93.2%
Tom Barrasso	Yes		1991	PIT	1,175	600	559	93.2%
Bill Ranford	Yes	Yes	1990	EDM	1,401	676	629	93.2%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	2001	COL	1,451	693	645	93.0%
Mike Smith			2012	PHX	1,027	611	568	93.0%
Dwayne Roloson			2006	EDM	1,160	625	581	92.9%
Sean Burke			1988	NJD	1,001	530	492	92.9%
Kirk McLean			1994	VAN	1,544	813	755	92.8%
Martin Brodeur			1994	NJD	1,171	526	488	92.7%
Andy Moog			1990	BOS	1,195	489	453	92.7%
Arturs Irbe			2002	CAR	1,078	511	474	92.7%
Marc-Andre Fleury			2008	PIT	1,251	603	559	92.6%
Tuukka Rask			2013	BOS	1,466	724	669	92.4%
Alain Chevrier			1989	CHI	1,013	478	441	92.3%
Ed Belfour*	Yes		1999	DAL	1,544	648	597	92.3%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		2003	NJD	1,491	678	626	92.2%
Chris Osgood	Yes		2008	DET	1,160	425	392	92.2%
Henrik Lundqvist			2014	NYR	1,516	731	674	92.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Brodeur doesn't get enough credit for his spectacular performance in 1995. His 92.7% save percentage looks strong on paper, but it's even more incredible when you consider that the league average was only 89.3% that year (88.9% after removing Brodeur's shots and saves). I am adamantly opposed to the idea that Brodeur deserved the Smythe in 2003, but arguably he deserved it in 1995.


Support Neutral Wins & Losses postseason @Hockey Outsider again!

* update for 2018

Goalie	Decision	Wins	Losses	Win%
Patrick Roy*	245	143	102	58.2%
Martin Brodeur	204	109	95	53.5%
Ed Belfour*	156	89	67	57.0%
Grant Fuhr*	137	72	65	52.3%
Curtis Joseph	129	69	60	53.6%
Henrik Lundqvist	126	68	58	53.7%
Mike Vernon	133	65	68	49.1%
Marc-Andre Fleury	133	65	68	49.1%
Dominik Hasek	114	65	49	57.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This is a concept developed by Taco McArthur – link. Essentially, it shows how many games a goalie would be expected to win, had they played on an average team. I’m not sure if I like this or Wins Added more (the latter is a statistic I created), but TM’s statistic is far easier to calculate and gives fairly similar results, so let’s go with his! The chart above shows the results for all goalies with 30+ decisions.

Best puckhandling goalie of all time?

Boy, one would have a hard time arguing for anyone else, at least definitively so. Marty is pretty much universally thought of as the best or near best at puck retrieval, and outlet passing as a netminder. I think the NJ's defensive system was so successful in large part because teams were often forced to dump the puck and Brodeur was so apt at getting to the puck and moving it before the opposing forwards could get to it, that the league eventually changed the rules as to where goalies could play the pucks. If that doesn't speak volumes i don't know what else would. The NJ trap probably wouldn't have fared as well with a goalie who couldn't skate and handle the puck, let alone pass it out quickly when needed.

Broduer (45) ranks tied for 3rd all time (Roy) behind Barrasso (48) and Fuhr (47) in assists which is pretty amazing considering who the goalies above him played with and the era they played in. Not to mention most of Brodeur's peak came in the dead puck era and he played on a team slanted towards defensive schematics.

 

[MXD]

And to be clear, if folks want to put Hall over Brodeur I'm not going to be upset at all. They're quite close in my book, I just think Brodeur was the more modern version of Glenn (with MB a better postseason goalie) and Brodeur's career overlapped greatly with Roy and Hasek, two guys already well off the board now. Brodeur was actually facing stiffer competition for goalie accolades regardless of how they fared head to head in real matchups, which isn't all that important as has been said my multiple people.

Just to re-post my look at Brodeur in case anyone missed it from earlier in the week:

Small caveat though : Hall faced Jacques Plante, who is definitely better than his ranking in this project would lead everyone to believe, and who mostly played for great teams as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

It feels a bit odd for me to "defend" Guy Lafleur, considering I see him as clearly better than only two players available this round (for those who are keeping score, that's Esposito and Sawchuk), but I have something on my mind that I want to raise about his post-prime period.


We know that he was injured, which could explain a least part of his « fall ». But I wonder at which point, when describing him as a player with a short prime/peak with not much on each side of it (a characterization who has some known flaws as it pertains to his pre-prime period, all we all know) who was a one-way offensive forward with no defensive duties to speak of (which is probably not 100% accurate, either, but is at least grounded on something), we don’t end up penalizing him twice for his flaws.


For all we know, the Canadiens switched to a very defensive system following Bowman’s departure. I mean, they already had a great defensive system during an era where few teams had defensive systems, but the point is, they started to focus much more on defense when their former depth players like Mario Tremblay and Pierre Mondou were asked to play a bigger roles. So, basically, defense from everyone became really important throughout the lineup.


To me, it’s extremely reasonable to assume that Lafleur’s lack of experience/skill/willingness on the defensive side of the game is a big reason why his output went downhill past 1981. Along with the other reasons, like the car accident and just getting older.


My point is : by giving lots of weight to the fact that his prime/peak was not very long, and that he wasn’t much outside of it, are we just punishing him twice for the same issue (lack of skill/experience/willingness), to a certain extent?


Nothing of the above should be construed as a suggestion that Lafleur should be given a mulligan for the injury.

Following the departure of Bowman, Dryden and Lemaire after the 1979 SC. The Canadiens were weaker defensively. GA under Geoffrion and Ruel rose to 240 from 204. Same under both 1979-80 coaches, exactly 3.00GA. Improved to 2.60GA in the playoffs.Next two seasons GA dropped slightly before skyrocketing.

Basic problem was that they were making defensive errors that caused losses in low scoring games. 1982 playoffs against Quebec being a prime example.

1981-82 Montreal Canadiens Schedule and Results | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[ImporterExporter]

Small caveat though : Hall faced Jacques Plante, who is definitely better than his ranking in this project would lead everyone to believe, and who mostly played for great teams as well.

Oh absolutely. I think Plante could have finished a few spots higher, certainly higher than 19th.

But at the end of the day Brodeur's main comp for goalie supremacy are the 7th and 13th players all time. And Eddie "The Eagle" who was no slouch himself and will almost surely be in the top 100.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Wins and losses are a team stat. Mikita may be just as responsible for Chicago's playoff record in the 60's as Hall. Or at least, the defensemen and coaching staff.

To the extent that the record leaves something wanting, I'd have no problem saying Mikita's more responsible.

The year Chicago won the Cup, Glenn Hall was Cup-Theft Great. In fact, you could even make the argument that it was a flat-out Cup Theft. If he'd performed like a mortal, Chicago would have had zero Cups between 1939 and 2010.

My overview has satisfied me that Hall belongs in the safety-zone this round. If you try to put the goat-horns on someone for Chicago's near-serial playoff-failures, you'll find they DON'T fit on Glenn Hall.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To the extent that the record leaves something wanting, I'd have no problem saying Mikita's more responsible.

The year Chicago won the Cup, Glenn Hall was Cup-Theft Great. In fact, you could even make the argument that it was a flat-out Cup Theft. If he'd performed like a mortal, Chicago would have had zero Cups between 1939 and 2010.

My overview has satisfied me that Hall belongs in the safety-zone this round. If you try to put the goat-horns on someone for Chicago's near-serial playoff-failures, you'll find they DON'T fit on Glenn Hall.

If you explained why you blame Mikita so much for the Black Hawks playoff failures, I must have missed it. His stats are generally fine, and I've seen more written about Bobby Hull's lack of defensive commitment in the playoffs than Mikita's.

The only thing specific I've seen thats bad about Mikita in the playoffs is that the much larger Beliveau owned him head to head, but that's at least partly management's fault for never acquiring support players who could play against Beliveau (like Toronto did with Kelly).

 

[ted2019]

After looking at more info you and @ContrarianGoaltender put forth I'm definitely thinking/leaning about bumping Bobby up a few spots. Won't be in my top 4-5 but likely out of that 2nd to last spot. I think he has a good chance next round to be honest if enough people examine those in depth playoff studies.

He will make it next round for me, unless there is an overwhelming change somewhere down the line.

 

[ted2019]

I'm not entirely sure Mikita was the 2nd best player on the Blackhawks. Glenn Hall definitely has a case there.

For example, the THN Top 100 rated the two of them back to back - Hall 16th, Mikita 17th: List of 100 greatest NHL players by The Hockey News - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I realize that list is littered with methodological problems, but the top 40-50 of the list does give an example of what the late 90s hockey establishment thought of players they saw play in the 50s-80s.

I think a lot of folks (myself included), ranked Mikita too high from the start. It's time to use our power to correct such things to make this exercise legit. I personally think that Hall was the 2nd member of the threesome myself and could possibly leap frog Mikita this round in my voting eyes.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

If you explained why you blame Mikita so much for the Black Hawks playoff failures, I must have missed it. His stats are generally fine, and I've seen more written about Bobby Hull's lack of defensive commitment in the playoffs than Mikita's.

The only thing specific I've seen thats bad about Mikita in the playoffs is that the much larger Beliveau owned him head to head, but that's at least partly management's fault for never acquiring support players who could play against Beliveau (like Toronto did with Kelly).

Béliveau wasn't the only one.

As to his generally fine stats, they were nice- in one notable instance even great- in two of his first three campaigns. And I'm not quite old enough to have pleasant childhood memories of those runs. I am old enough to have experienced the a few of the ones subsequent- and it was a disappointment.

It would be (has been) unfair for me to ignore those earlier days as though they should be whitewashed-- but ultimately, it's suggestive of the fact that countering stratagems were deployed... and ripostes to those measures were never developed. Perhaps it's more that Chicago's opponents "wised up" more than Mikita "fooled up." Whatever- he was outperformed- more often than a player of his pedigree should have been.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Amen.

Never, ever, use H2H netminding results to drive a narrative.

I'm far more concerned with who was in front of the goalie and who was coming at him.

Old one goalie O6, in season back-to-back games it was the narrative that adetermined the RS standings more often than not.

Split and you have a race, lose two and chances fade.

 

[pappyline]

I think a lot of folks (myself included), ranked Mikita too high from the start. It's time to use our power to correct such things to make this exercise legit. I personally think that Hall was the 2nd member of the threesome myself and could possibly leap frog Mikita this round in my voting eyes.

IMO Mikita was ranked just right from the start and should definitely be a top 5 this round. There are about 3 vocal naysayers that are obviously influencing people like yourself

 

[Batis]

Here are the best-on-best international tournaments numbers of the new available players. Again with a focus on the knockout stage but also taking the overall numbers into account. Note that for Brodeur I have only done the knockout stage numbers due to it being more time consuming to do this with goalies.

Clarke
Summit Series 1972: 8 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
Canada Cup 1976: 2 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage:10 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 14 gp, 3 g, 6 a, 9 pts

Fetisov
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1987: 4 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
World Cup 1996: 2 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 8 gp, 2 g, 6 a, 8 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 20 gp, 3 g, 14 a, 17 pts

Brodeur
World Cup 1996: 1 gp, 15 saves on 16 shots, 0.938
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 62 saves on 66 shots, 0.939
World Cup 2004: 2 gp, 50 saves on 52 shots, 0.962
Olympics 2006: 1 gp, 31 saves on 33 shots, 0.939
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 7 gp, 158 saves on 167 shots, 0.946

All of the new players have very strong best-on-best numbers. Especially considering that both Fetisov and Clarke brought alot more than offense to the table.

Fetisov's best-on-best numbers compare rather favourably to Potvin's numbers (even if Potvin is ahead) and in this current group of players I would only rank Esposito ahead of Fetisov when it comes to best-on-best performances.

Brouder's save percentage at the knockout stage is exactly the same as Hasek's save percentage there. I would still not say that Brodeur's actual performance was as impressive as Hasek's though considering that Hasek in his 5 knockout stage games was up against Team Canada two times (one of those times with both Gretzky and Lemieux), Russia two times and Team USA once while Brodeur faced somewhat easier opponents than that. Still Brodeur has a very strong best-on-best resume with impressive performances in both 2002 and 2004 and he ranks very high in this group of players when it comes to best-on-best resume in my opinion.

Clarke probably belongs somewhere among Messier and Lafleur when it comes to best-on-best performances thanks to his defensive performances combined with being rather productive offensively as well.

This is roughly how I would rank the available players based on their best-on-best resumes.

Esposito
Fetisov
Brodeur
Messier/Lafleur/Clarke
Ovechkin

Here are the numbers of the other available players again.

Esposito
Summit Series 1972: 8 gp, 7 g, 6 a, 13 pts
Canada Cup 1976: 2 g, 1 g, 2 a, 3 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 10 gp, 8 g, 8 a, 16 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 15 gp, 11 g, 9 a, 20 pts

Lafleur
Canada Cup 1976: 2 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 4 gp, 1 g, 2 a, 3 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 14 gp, 3 g, 14 a, 17 pts

Messier
Canada Cup 1984: 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1987: 4 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1991: 3 gp, 2 g, 3 a, 5 pts
World Cup 1996: 4 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 14 gp, 3 g, 8 a, 11 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 32 gp, 6 g, 20 a, 26 pts

Ovechkin
World Cup 2004: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2006: 3 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Olympics 2010: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2014: 2 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
World Cup 2016: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 8 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 23 gp, 10 g, 5 a, 15 pts

Another thing worth noting is that I have not included Mikita in this comparison since he only got the chance to play in a best-on-best competition when he already was out of his prime. But just for completeness Mikita had 1 point in 2 games at the 1972 Summit Series.

 

[Theokritos]

There are about 3 vocal naysayers that are obviously influencing people like yourself

I guess that's what happens when the yaysayers complain about the naysayers but don't really join the discussion to provide their own arguments.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I’ll try to throw something together regarding Terry Sawchuk tonight - who I might have top-3 with Messier and Nighbor, subject to the inevitable counter-arguments.

 

[pappyline]

I guess that's what happens when the yaysayers complain about the naysayers but don't really join the discussion to provide their own arguments.

Well, the naysayers go on and on about bad playoff performance which is refuted by the facts and has been mentioned several times. Have you read all the posts?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Here are the best-on-best international tournaments numbers of the new available players. Again with a focus on the knockout stage but also taking the overall numbers into account. Note that for Brodeur I have only done the knockout stage numbers due to it being more time consuming to do this with goalies.

Clarke
Summit Series 1972: 8 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
Canada Cup 1976: 2 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage:10 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 14 gp, 3 g, 6 a, 9 pts

Fetisov
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1987: 4 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
World Cup 1996: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 7 gp, 2 g, 6 a, 8 pts
Total at best-on-best tournaments overall: 20 gp, 3 g, 14 a, 17 pts

Brodeur
World Cup 1996: 1 gp, 15 saves on 16 shots, 0.938
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 62 saves on 66 shots, 0.939
World Cup 2004: 2 gp, 50 saves on 52 shots, 0.962
Olympics 2006: 1 gp, 31 saves on 33 shots, 0.939
Total at best-on-best tournaments knockout stage: 7 gp, 158 saves on 167 shots, 0.946

All of the new players have very strong best-on-best numbers. Especially considering that both Fetisov and Clarke brought alot more than offense to the table.

Fetisov's best-on-best numbers compare rather favourably to Potvin's numbers (even if Potvin is ahead) and in this current group of players I would only rank Esposito ahead of Fetisov when it comes to best-on-best performances.

Brouder's save percentage at the knockout stage is exactly the same as Hasek's save percentage there. I would still not say that Brodeur's actual performance was as impressive as Hasek's though considering that Hasek in his 5 knockout stage games was up against Team Canada two times (one of those times with both Gretzky and Lemieux), Russia two times and Team USA once while Brodeur faced somewhat easier opponents than that. Still Brodeur has a very strong best-on-best resume with impressive performances in both 2002 and 2004 and he ranks very high in this group of players when it comes to best-on-best resume in my opinion.

Clarke probably belongs somewhere among Messier and Lafleur when it comes to best-on-best performances thanks to his defensive performances combined with being rather productive offensively as well.

This is roughly how I would rank the available players based on their best-on-best resumes.

Esposito
Fetisov
Brodeur
Messier/Lafleur/Clarke
Ovechkin

Here are the numbers of the other available players again.



Another thing worth noting is that I have not included Mikita in this comparison since he only got the chance to play in a best-on-best competition when he already was out of his prime. But just for completeness Mikita had 1 point in 2 games at the 1972 Summit Series.

I haven't gone all the way through this, but I'd like to see Brodeur's W-L record in his games. Also, you seemed to have forgotten his 2 games in 2010.

EDIT: Now I see you only did the knockout stage games for Brodeur, that would explain his 2 round robin games in 2010 not being included.

 

[Batis]

I haven't gone all the way through this, but I'd like to see Brodeur's W-L record in his games. Also, you seemed to have forgotten his 2 games in 2010.

EDIT: Now I see you only did the knockout stage games for Brodeur, that would explain his 2 round robin games in 2010 not being included.

6 Wins and 1 Loss at the knockout stage for Brodeur.

Edit. But had he been the starter in the finals against USA in 1996 he would probably have picked up some more losses.

 

[Captain Bowie]

6 Wins and 1 Loss at the knockout stage for Brodeur.

Edit. But had he been the starter in the finals against USA in 1996 he would probably have picked up some more losses.

Cool, thanks. Interesting to see he doesn't have a single blemish on his record, considering how many tournaments he was a part of over many years.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Fantastic work @Batis

Brodeur and Fetisov both have stellar numbers.

.946 in all knockout games is money goaltending.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Cool, thanks. Interesting to see he doesn't have a single blemish on his record, considering how many tournaments he was a part of over many years.

Couple that with his postseason record and it's why I have him a touch higher than Hall.