Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

wetcoast

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How in hell is Mikita's or even Messier's prime better than Lafleur's??


Off my phone now and will put up Mikita's 9 consecutive years in a row prime top 4 in scoring each season against Lafleur's 6 year peak/prime.

Those are finishes of 1,1,1,1,2,3,3,3,4 in 9 seasons.

That really should compare with Lafleur at 1,1,1,3,3,4 right?

Take out the identical seasons and we have Mikita with 1,2,3 advantage.

He also has a 10th year in 72-73 where he was 3rd in PPG with a very strong 57-27-53-80 line.

I happen to think that it's better than Lafleur with a 10th PPG season in 80-81.

Mikita was also 13th in points in 73-74 and in 15th in 74-75

Playoffs Lafleur has that 6 year peak, but let's look at Mikita's best 6 years and then the rest between them as well.

Mikita's 6 best consecutive year streak in the playoffs is 61-66 where his line is 57-22-37-59 good for 4th in points behind

Howe 66
Hull 66
Ullman 62
Mikta 59

Sure Lafleur's 6 year stretch is much better

Lafleur 110
Clarke 79
Potvin 77
Shutt 77
Lemaire 74

But outside of each players best 6 year consecutive stretch this is how they stack up

Lafleur in 73 overall games and Mikita in 98 games scored like this from best to worst:

Guy 8,5,3,3,2,1,1,1

Stan 20,18,12,11,10,7,4,4,3,1,1 and zero

This really brings Mikita closer to Lafleur.

The totality of Mikita just overwhelms Lafleur as he was a better 2 way player as well and his very long prime and significant number of seasons over Lafleur makes for a very overwhelming case IMO.

Frankly I'm very surprised Mikita hasn't already been selected.

I'm too tired to do the direct comparison with Messier right now but will just do the quick Coles not version.

Messier has 6 seasons as a top 10 scorer and 9 in PPG and they tend to tread closer to 10th than 1st to be sure.

Advantage to Lafleur for peak but Messiers prime is 15 years long as a very good scoring center bringing decent 2 way play and physicality as well.

It's the playoffs where Messier really stands out though.

Messier had 14 consecutive seasons in double digits in points in the playoffs.

I'll put that up over Guy and his 6 year peak 8 days a week.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Also, wingers carry less value.

I can find numerous Cup champions who won with average wingers top to bottom.

Very rarely do you see a Cup winner without a high end C or D.

Well, they did call the Shutt - X - Lafleur line the "donut line" because they didn't have a regular center.

(Center was usually Pete Mahovlich or Jacques Lemaire, though)
 

pappyline

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Jul 3, 2005
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Hall had some good moments in the playoffs, but I don't even know if he would have been the favorite in 1961. For what it's worth, the HHOF/SIHR study gave the retroactive Conn Smythe that year to Pierre Pilote: Retroactive Conn Smythe | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online (and the 1962 Smythe to Mikita in a losing cause).

Hall, of course, won the actual Smythe in 1968 for not allowing the expansion Blues to be completely embarrassed in the finals against Montreal.

Thanks for pointing this out though - shutting Montreal out twice in games 5 and 6 was a pretty big deal.

Hall was absolutely spectacular in the semis against Montreal in 1961. Montreal was coming off a 5 year cup run and were still packed with superstars. He certainly would of been in the running for the CS if it existed. Retro CS's be damned.
 

quoipourquoi

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Why Bobby Clarke's Offensive Performance in the Playoffs Was Better Than It Looks

I've noticed there is a general tendency to compare one-way players to two-players by comparing their offensive results and then trying to estimate whether the additional defensive impact "makes up the gap". I think this approach undervalues two-way forwards used in a shutdown role. The reason is that a shutdown forward's offensive contributions will almost certainly be more valuable to his team on average (in terms of increasing the chances of actually winning hockey games) than the offensive contributions of a forward who scores the same regardless of whether the score is 8-0 or 0-0. This is because the shutdown forward is only going to be trying his hardest to score in the most high-leverage situations, while trading offence for defence in other scenarios (especially when his team is ahead), meaning that he can't really take advantage of the juicy counterattack chances that tend to result when the other team is pressing to try to catch up on the scoreboard.

From a past analysis, I happened to have situational stats by score for the Philadelphia Flyers with Bernie Parent in net from the Hockey Summary Project box scores, so I went back and filled in a few gaps to get the data for Bobby Clarke's playoff career. Here is how his scoring broke down during his playoff peak from 1973-78 based on the score of the game, along with the minutes his team spent in each score situation, my estimate of Clarke's points per 60 minutes assuming he played one-third of his team's ice time in each situation, and the percentage of Philadelphia goals that Clarke got a point on in each scenario:

Bobby Clarke Situational Playoff Scoring, 1973-78:

ScorePtsTOIPts/60% of Tm
Trail by 2+8541.72.6625%
Trail by 121698.15.4240%
Tied271884.82.5829%
Lead by 1121032.12.0924%
Lead by 2+9939.91.7221%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The main takeaway is that Clarke's numbers are best with the game tied or especially with his team down a goal, but that they drop off significantly with his team already in the lead. That's exactly what we'd expect to see for a strong offensive player being used in a shutdown role.

Did Clarke's scoring patterns differ in the regular season? I don't have the full numbers but I'm confident the answer is yes, considering that just from March 5-26, 1975, he scored 12 points with his team already leading by 2 or more goals (in just 11 GP), even though he only had 15 such points in his entire 136 game playoff career. In other words, while deployed in a standard top line offensive player mode (including being given the opportunity to pad his stats in blowout scenarios against weaker opposition), Clarke had competitive scoring numbers with other elite forwards. The difference is that come playoff time he was used in a different way which lowered his offensive numbers (even though I think more than enough of Fred Shero to be quite confident it didn't actually hurt the Flyers one bit).

If Clarke scored at the same rate with his team leading as he did in all other situations, he would have scored an extra 14 points in those 83 games, improving his PPG from 0.93 to 1.10. That's still not quite at his 1.31 regular season average, but not only did the Flyers face strong playoff opposition on average (as pointed out by Kyle McMahon), it's actually very conservative to assume that a forward would score the same with his team leading as otherwise. Offensive forwards usually score at their best with their teams already in the lead. Take, for example, Clarke's contemporary Phil Esposito:

Playoff points by score:

Peak Esposito, 1968-1975 (71 GP): 17 trailing, 33 tied, 52 leading
Peak Clarke, 1973-78 (83 GP): 29 trailing, 27 tied, 21 leading

I don't have the full TOI by game score for Esposito's teams, but it is likely that his teams spent a bit more time in the lead than Clarke's. For example, Gerry Cheevers spent 45% of his career playoff TOI with his team in the lead, while Clarke's Flyers spent 39% of their total TOI with a lead from 1973-78. But even with those adjustments, I think it's pretty likely that Clarke actually had a better per-minute scoring rate with his team trailing than Esposito did. Even with favourable estimates for Boston's distribution of TOI by score, I'd estimate that peak Clarke scored up to 20% better than peak Espo while their teams were trailing, Esposito scored up to 80% better with the game tied, and Esposito scored at least 125% better with his team already in the lead.

Now it should be noted that plenty of those points scored while leading still had a very positive impact on win probability. Giving your team a two-goal lead has diminishing returns depending on the time remaining, but nevertheless holds real value at pretty much any point in the game other than the final seconds. But nothing is nearly as important as game-tying and go-ahead goals, particularly late in the game. Also, scoring with your team behind by a lot of goals is admirable but not really all that relevant to win probability either (although that doesn't really apply here since Clarke didn't score many of those goals, with only 5 points in his playoff career coming with his team already down by 3 or more).

If you're doubting how much this is a matter of usage and whether it could merely reflect some sort of clutch play or whatever, I can provide further evidence using advanced stats from Natural Stat Trick, with Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews as stand-ins for a player who is used in an offensive role regardless of situation and a two-way player who is often called on to matchup against opposing centers and defend leads. We see that Kane's individual Corsi events (the total number of shots on goal, missed shots, and shots that were blocked taken by that player himself) were consistent regardless of score at 5-on-5 in the playoffs (15.4 per 60 trailing, 15.2 tied, 15.3 leading), whereas Toews had more individual even strength attempts when his team was not in the lead (11.1 per 60 trailing, 12.5 tied, 10.2 leading). Kane also had more high danger and rush chances with Chicago in the lead, leading to a better finishing rate on his chances, whereas Toews' high danger and rush chances actually dropped with his team in the lead, which is unusual for forwards but reflects the fact that it usually wasn't Toews' job to take offensive chances in that scenario:

5-on-5 Playoff Stats, 2008-2018 (source: Natural Stat Trick):

LeadingTied/Trailing
Kane Pts/602.832.06
Toews Pts/601.511.66
Kane iCF/6015.315.3
Toews iCF/6010.212.0
Kane iHDCF/603.82.2
Toews iHDCF/602.83.2
Kane Rush/600.90.5
Toews Rush/600.20.3
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
(iCF - individual Corsi events, iHDCF - individual high danger chances, Rush - rush attempts)

So even though it has been claimed that a focus on stats causes voters to overrate offensive stars, I think the exact opposite should be true. A rational, detailed analysis of all the relevant numbers should generally favour two-way centers over one-dimensional offensive forwards. They deserve not only recognition for their defensive contributions and matchup deployment, but they should actually get extra credit for their offence because a majority of it comes in high leverage situations compared to offensive players who often pad their stats with their team's victory already mostly secured.

Fantastic analysis. I believe a similar conclusion was drawn a few years ago regarding Bergeron’s 2013 playoffs and Messier’s 1984 playoffs which saw a similar role to that of Clarke’s. In the latter example, Messier only scored 26 points, but had 46% of those points come specifically when the Oilers were trailing. This despite the Oilers being a +38 goal differential team in those playoffs.

Definitely something to be conscious of as we go through the numbers of some complete players.
 

quoipourquoi

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Lafleur had the higher (at least offensively) but significantly shorter peak/prime

Yeah, I think it’s fair to be critical of how long Lafleur (or even Clarke) were impact players relative to the guys they’re being compared to (just as we were for Potvin in Vote 3 and Vote 4), but it will come down to what is given more priority from each voter: a higher top-end or more mileage.
 

DannyGallivan

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Well, they did call the Shutt - X - Lafleur line the "donut line" because they didn't have a regular center.

(Center was usually Pete Mahovlich or Jacques Lemaire, though)
Virtually always those two. First Mahovlich and then Lemaire. And they were regular centers. Bowman was know for mixing up all his lines fairly often, so there were variations, but those were the usual centers.
 

DannyGallivan

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Messier had 14 consecutive seasons in double digits in points in the playoffs
How come context is so often forgotten? This was the 1980's and early 90's. Remember the scoring prowess of legends like Dennis Maruk and Blaine Stoughton? How about Bernie Nicholls? There's a reason they're not in the Hall of Fame. They played in an era where amassing a large amount of points was common place.

Also, playing on Gretzky's Oilers kinda helps Messier. He's playing on the highest scoring team in history, and he rarely if ever has to face the other teams' checking line (well, what passed for checking lines in those days).
 

bobholly39

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How come context is so often forgotten? This was the 1980's and early 90's. Remember the scoring prowess of legends like Dennis Maruk and Blaine Stoughton? How about Bernie Nicholls? There's a reason they're not in the Hall of Fame. They played in an era where amassing a large amount of points was common place.

Also, playing on Gretzky's Oilers kinda helps Messier. He's playing on the highest scoring team in history, and he rarely if ever has to face the other teams' checking line (well, what passed for checking lines in those days).

Of course he played in the 80s and of course there's the Gretzky factor but it's still crazy, crazy numbers for Messier.That stretch of 14 years is from 1983 to 1997 actually, so not just in the 80s.

What's almost more impressive is that outside of 1989 (7 games) - in everyone of those 14 years he has double digits in games played. Obviously he's not individually responsible for winning/games played in a team game - but he's always been a core player/leader of his teams, so i think a lot of that merit can go to him.

It's one thing i loved about Roy's playoff resumes, the games played, each year.
 

DannyGallivan

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I think has more positives than any player left. He just has a pretty big negative (lack of longevity as an elite player).

6 consecutive seasons scoring between 119 and 136 points (first player ever to do this, I believe) - and six years is a VERY LONG TIME... my first marriage lasted six years. It was an eternity.
6 consecutive seasons scoring over 50 goals (first player ever to do this, I believe)
9 straight seasons averaging over 90 points in terms of points per game
13 straight seasons with over 20 goals (including a 60 goal season, five 50 goal seasons, a 30 goal season and 5 seasons within three goals of 30)
3 consecutive seasons leading the playoffs in scoring
...and he also took four years off for early retirement before coming back and putting up very respectable numbers for a player his age given a reduced workload.

So tell me, what is the "cut off" for an acceptable length of time as an elite player? And don't forget, he just wasn't an elite player, he was the best it the world for at least three of those years.
 
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DannyGallivan

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What's almost more impressive is that outside of 1989 (7 games) - in everyone of those 14 years he has double digits in games played. Obviously he's not individually responsible for winning/games played in a team game - but he's always been a core player/leader of his teams, so i think a lot of that merit can go to him.
He stayed healthy, good for him.
Hey, I like Messier. I think that he would have been a worthy Conn Smythe winner in '94 (if Ovechkin could win it last year, then Messier would have been even more worthy in '94). He's just really been in tough competition during these rounds. Right now I have him in sixth place. There's no way he's got a chance to go ahead of Lafleur, and he's not going ahead of Esposito. Maybe I can put him ahead of Ovechkin, but now that Ovie has his Cup and Conn Smythe, it's hard (if not impossible) to keep him out of the top five this round. Brodeur has risen considerably for me and is in the top five, but I've never been overly impressed by him. Perhaps Messier can squeak past him. Or Nighbor.

... then there's Clarke and Mikita who I also think require serious top five consideration. Very difficult round.
 

bobholly39

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He stayed healthy, good for him.
Hey, I like Messier. I think that he would have been a worthy Conn Smythe winner in '94 (if Ovechkin could win it last year, then Messier would have been even more worthy in '94). He's just really been in tough competition during these rounds. Right now I have him in sixth place. There's no way he's got a chance to go ahead of Lafleur, and he's not going ahead of Esposito. Maybe I can put him ahead of Ovechkin, but now that Ovie has his Cup and Conn Smythe, it's hard (if not impossible) to keep him out of the top five this round. Brodeur has risen considerably for me and is in the top five, but I've never been overly impressed by him. Perhaps Messier can squeak past him. Or Nighbor.

... then there's Clarke and Mikita who I also think require serious top five consideration. Very difficult round.

i really don't think that's fair at all. It's one thing if you're a random 3rd or 4th liner in the playoffs - sure games played is more health and luck of being on a good team.

But Messier was a core player/leader of each of those teams. I think games played in the playoffs is actually pretty significant. I wouldn't discount them all that easily.

I don't really disagree with the rest. I'm not sure where to rank Messier either - and yes he probably could have won in 94 (Leetch >> Kuz though, so not apples to apples). Flip side is no one but Gretzky should have won conn smythes in any of the edmonton years, so he shouldn't have his conn smythe imo.
 
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MXD

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Brian Leetch is grossly overrated as a player specifically because he was an absolute force the '94 playoffs and totally deserved his Conn Smythe. Mark Messier was... well, very good. Especially considering he was, well, not exactly a spring chicken anymore.

But please... Don't say he deserved the Conn Smythe in 1994. That's making him a huge disservice. If you want to claim that his performance would've been good enough for a Conn Smythe (say.... in 2016!), go ahead.
 

bobholly39

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6 consecutive seasons scoring between 119 and 136 points (first player ever to do this, I believe) - and six years is a VERY LONG TIME... my first marriage lasted six years. It was an eternity.
6 consecutive seasons scoring over 50 goals (first player ever to do this, I believe)
9 straight seasons averaging over 90 points in terms of points per game
13 straight seasons with over 20 goals (including a 60 goal season, five 50 goal seasons, a 30 goal season and 5 seasons within three goals of 30)
3 consecutive seasons leading the playoffs in scoring
...and he also took four years off for early retirement before coming back and putting up very respectable numbers for a player his age given a reduced workload.

So tell me, what is the "cut off" for an acceptable length of time as an elite player? And don't forget, he just wasn't an elite player, he was the best it the world for at least three of those years.

No offense but you go from talking about 119+ points to 20+ goal seasons lol - there's such a huge drop off there.

Players like Lemieux and Orr lack longevity....even Bossy when he comes up will lack some....but we didn't see those guys decline. They lack longevity for injuries, or retirement, etc. I think Lafleur declined significantly in production/performance which is unappealing about him.

You'll be hard pressed to find a better 6 year stretch in hockey history outside of maybe 5-6 players, if that. Might be even less. But i do feel underwhelmed about his decline.

There was a lot of talk about Jagr's return to the NHL post KHL past few rounds. I think that return has some merit for him (not much, but some). Lafleur's return after retirement does a LOT less for him than even Jagr though, so it's not really relevant.
 

DannyGallivan

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You'll be hard pressed to find a better 6 year stretch in hockey history outside of maybe 5-6 players, if that. Might be even less. But i do feel underwhelmed about his decline
The first three years after his six year peak was still 90 - plus point to over a 100 points. Not much of a decline for someone in his 30's in those days. I've seen a lot more creative number crunching done for other players, while Lafleur detractors dismiss anything after 1980. So silly.
 

DannyGallivan

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Players like Lemieux and Orr lack longevity....even Bossy when he comes up will lack some....but we didn't see those guys decline. They lack longevity for injuries, or retirement, etc. I think Lafleur declined significantly in production/performance which is unappealing about him.
If he didn't decline, he would have been in the top four or five.
 

bobholly39

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Brian Leetch is grossly overrated as a player specifically because he was an absolute force the '94 playoffs and totally deserved his Conn Smythe. Mark Messier was... well, very good. Especially considering he was, well, not exactly a spring chicken anymore.

But please... Don't say he deserved the Conn Smythe in 1994. That's making him a huge disservice. If you want to claim that his performance would've been good enough for a Conn Smythe (say.... in 2016!), go ahead.

Yeah that's fair.

To me Conn Smythe worthy runs are important - and Messier 94 absolutely qualifies. As do a few of his Oiler runs.

Top end/all-time great runs are even more important - and Leetch in 94 might qualify there. To be honest - do *any* of Messier's runs qualify?

I'd guess he has the most "conn smythe worthy runs" in this grouping. But he might also rank close to last among players if we were to compare best individual runs of each player (or if not last - at least behind a lot of guys).
 

DannyGallivan

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I'd guess he has the most "conn smythe worthy runs" in this grouping. But he might also rank close to last among players if we were to compare best individual runs of each player (or if not last - at least behind a lot of guys).
How many would that be? Lafleur would have had three or four.
 

daver

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The first three years after his six year peak was still 90 - plus point to over a 100 points. Not much of a decline for someone in his 30's in those days. I've seen a lot more creative number crunching done for other players, while Lafleur detractors dismiss anything after 1980. So silly.

You seemed to miss the post that shows his claim to fame after 79/80 was #10 in PPG while playing 51 games at age 30.
 

bobholly39

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The first three years after his six year peak was still 90 - plus point to over a 100 points. Not much of a decline for someone in his 30's in those days. I've seen a lot more creative number crunching done for other players, while Lafleur detractors dismiss anything after 1980. So silly.

Here are his ppg ranks, from his last strong year and the 4 following

ppgppg rank
1979-19801.693
1980-19811.3710
1981-19821.2719
1982-19831.1224
1983-19840.8875
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
That's a really stark decline for me. He was barely 29-32 in those years, not that old. A lot of players passed him.

If he didn't decline, he would have been in the top four or five.

Yes, probably
 

wetcoast

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How come context is so often forgotten? This was the 1980's and early 90's. Remember the scoring prowess of legends like Dennis Maruk and Blaine Stoughton? How about Bernie Nicholls? There's a reason they're not in the Hall of Fame. They played in an era where amassing a large amount of points was common place.

Also, playing on Gretzky's Oilers kinda helps Messier. He's playing on the highest scoring team in history, and he rarely if ever has to face the other teams' checking line (well, what passed for checking lines in those days).

We are talking playoffs here, your 3 examples are regular season guys.

Yes he played in a higher scoring era it he still has a much better peak and prime playoffs compared to any player this round.
 

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