Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

ImporterExporter

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My early Wednesday rankings.
1. Frank Nighbor
2. Viacheslav Fetisov
3 - 9. Mark Messier/Glenn Hall/Marty Brodeur/Guy Lafleur/Phil Esposito/Stan Mikita/Alex Ovechkin ( not in any order)
10. Bobby Clarke
11. Terry Sawchuk

Spot on.

I know you're a big Clarke fan so i give you much respect for putting him near the bottom. Too early for him this round given the competition he's facing.

Sawchuk is NR'd for me. Nobody has really touched on him in depth which leads me to believe he'll be in the bottom few on most ballots. Which is correct.

I have Nighbor, Messier, Fetisov and Brodeur as my top 4. Not set on the their order quite yet but they're the ones I think should be moving on for sure.

Next tier would be Ovechkin, Hall, Mikita and probably Lafleur/Espo vying for the 2 spots ahead of Clarke/Sawchuk.

But obviously a fluid situation with most of these guys sans my locks and bottom 2.
 

BM67

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Thanks for the note on the date range.

The issue is, even with a 5:1 advantage in 18 shot or fewer games, the difference seems offset by other games as shown by @The Macho Man

SeasonMartin Brodeur's SA/60Backup(s) SA/60
'9428.2929.05
'9524.9425.26
'9626.4423.4
'9725.5227.13
'9822.823.01
'9924.4624.3
'0025.0027.64
'0124.6022.5
'0222.8423.16
'0323.5521.79
'0424.3021.46
'0628.9328.2
'0727.8728.33
'0827.0427.99
'0928.1729.27
'1026.7326.60
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The Devils were good at suppressing shots with other goalies in net too, even in pre-2006 years where there is no trapezoid.

Even Marty's "1-shot advantage" is probably skewed by the backup sample coming more from the 1993-94 and 2008-09 Devils than the more stingy 2000-01 to 2003-04 sample.

And even with 2008 Brodeur winning a Vezina, keeping SA/60 at 27.04 and playing 77 games, the Devils were the #4 GA team in the league. 1 year later, with Brodeur playing only 31 games, and the backups with the 29.27 SA/60 playing more - the 2009 Devils were the #4 GA team in the league.

Playing with the Devils also meant another key advantage - low numbers of PP shots against. From 1998-2014, here's how Brodeur looked against others in terms of PP shots: NHL.com - Stats

Here's the top three expressed in SA/60:
PlayerPP SA/60
Luongo6.42
Kolzig6.68
Brodeur4.14
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That's not puck handling. The Devils took a cartoonishly low number of penalties in the regular season: NHL.com - Stats

Between 1998 and 2004 the Devils took about as many penalties as Columbus. And Columbus spotted them a few years of not existing as a team. Of all teams who existed in 1998, New Jersey is clearly the team with the lowest SH time. (Or 1999. The Predators took more penalties in 82 fewer games.)

Like I said a single 50 shot game can have a measurable impact on Brodeur's career average SA/60, so of course it will have a pretty large impact in an individual season. The Devils SF in a game during the 1997-98 season ranged from 13 to 47, and SA from 12 to 37. A variance like that is going to swamp any impact of stickhandling, or other skills.

Not sure how accurate Macho's chart is either. The only year I looked at was 1997-98, and the backups faced 25.98 SA/60, even their saves/60 is higher than 23.01.

In 2008-09, both Weekes and Clemmensen had career years, but the Devils' GAA went from 2.23 in 2007-08 to 2.41 in 08-09.

As for PK SA, yes it impacts Brodeur's SV% and GAA positively, but it has no impact on wins, as the Devils also had by far the fewest PP chances. Both NJ shot under counting, and Brodeur's stickhandling have as large, or larger impacts on SV%.
 

The Macho King

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Like I said a single 50 shot game can have a measurable impact on Brodeur's career average SA/60, so of course it will have a pretty large impact in an individual season. The Devils SF in a game during the 1997-98 season ranged from 13 to 47, and SA from 12 to 37. A variance like that is going to swamp any impact of stickhandling, or other skills.

Not sure how accurate Macho's chart is either. The only year I looked at was 1997-98, and the backups faced 25.98 SA/60, even their saves/60 is higher than 23.01.

In 2008-09, both Weekes and Clemmensen had career years, but the Devils' GAA went from 2.23 in 2007-08 to 2.41 in 08-09.

As for PK SA, yes it impacts Brodeur's SV% and GAA positively, but it has no impact on wins, as the Devils also had by far the fewest PP chances. Both NJ shot under counting, and Brodeur's stickhandling have as large, or larger impacts on SV%.
I used HRs site but I was at the gate in the airport so I wont testify to its gospel accuracy. Transcribing errors are very plausible. I'll double check the numbers tomorrow.
 
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ContrarianGoaltender

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Why Bobby Clarke's Offensive Performance in the Playoffs Was Better Than It Looks

I've noticed there is a general tendency to compare one-way players to two-players by comparing their offensive results and then trying to estimate whether the additional defensive impact "makes up the gap". I think this approach undervalues two-way forwards used in a shutdown role. The reason is that a shutdown forward's offensive contributions will almost certainly be more valuable to his team on average (in terms of increasing the chances of actually winning hockey games) than the offensive contributions of a forward who scores the same regardless of whether the score is 8-0 or 0-0. This is because the shutdown forward is only going to be trying his hardest to score in the most high-leverage situations, while trading offence for defence in other scenarios (especially when his team is ahead), meaning that he can't really take advantage of the juicy counterattack chances that tend to result when the other team is pressing to try to catch up on the scoreboard.

From a past analysis, I happened to have situational stats by score for the Philadelphia Flyers with Bernie Parent in net from the Hockey Summary Project box scores, so I went back and filled in a few gaps to get the data for Bobby Clarke's playoff career. Here is how his scoring broke down during his playoff peak from 1973-78 based on the score of the game, along with the minutes his team spent in each score situation, my estimate of Clarke's points per 60 minutes assuming he played one-third of his team's ice time in each situation, and the percentage of Philadelphia goals that Clarke got a point on in each scenario:

Bobby Clarke Situational Playoff Scoring, 1973-78:

ScorePtsTOIPts/60% of Tm
Trail by 2+8541.72.6625%
Trail by 121698.15.4240%
Tied271884.82.5829%
Lead by 1121032.12.0924%
Lead by 2+9939.91.7221%
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The main takeaway is that Clarke's numbers are best with the game tied or especially with his team down a goal, but that they drop off significantly with his team already in the lead. That's exactly what we'd expect to see for a strong offensive player being used in a shutdown role.

Did Clarke's scoring patterns differ in the regular season? I don't have the full numbers but I'm confident the answer is yes, considering that just from March 5-26, 1975, he scored 12 points with his team already leading by 2 or more goals (in just 11 GP), even though he only had 15 such points in his entire 136 game playoff career. In other words, while deployed in a standard top line offensive player mode (including being given the opportunity to pad his stats in blowout scenarios against weaker opposition), Clarke had competitive scoring numbers with other elite forwards. The difference is that come playoff time he was used in a different way which lowered his offensive numbers (even though I think more than enough of Fred Shero to be quite confident it didn't actually hurt the Flyers one bit).

If Clarke scored at the same rate with his team leading as he did in all other situations, he would have scored an extra 14 points in those 83 games, improving his PPG from 0.93 to 1.10. That's still not quite at his 1.31 regular season average, but not only did the Flyers face strong playoff opposition on average (as pointed out by Kyle McMahon), it's actually very conservative to assume that a forward would score the same with his team leading as otherwise. Offensive forwards usually score at their best with their teams already in the lead. Take, for example, Clarke's contemporary Phil Esposito:

Playoff points by score:

Peak Esposito, 1968-1975 (71 GP): 17 trailing, 33 tied, 52 leading
Peak Clarke, 1973-78 (83 GP): 29 trailing, 27 tied, 21 leading

I don't have the full TOI by game score for Esposito's teams, but it is likely that his teams spent a bit more time in the lead than Clarke's. For example, Gerry Cheevers spent 45% of his career playoff TOI with his team in the lead, while Clarke's Flyers spent 39% of their total TOI with a lead from 1973-78. But even with those adjustments, I think it's pretty likely that Clarke actually had a better per-minute scoring rate with his team trailing than Esposito did. Even with favourable estimates for Boston's distribution of TOI by score, I'd estimate that peak Clarke scored up to 20% better than peak Espo while their teams were trailing, Esposito scored up to 80% better with the game tied, and Esposito scored at least 125% better with his team already in the lead.

Now it should be noted that plenty of those points scored while leading still had a very positive impact on win probability. Giving your team a two-goal lead has diminishing returns depending on the time remaining, but nevertheless holds real value at pretty much any point in the game other than the final seconds. But nothing is nearly as important as game-tying and go-ahead goals, particularly late in the game. Also, scoring with your team behind by a lot of goals is admirable but not really all that relevant to win probability either (although that doesn't really apply here since Clarke didn't score many of those goals, with only 5 points in his playoff career coming with his team already down by 3 or more).

If you're doubting how much this is a matter of usage and whether it could merely reflect some sort of clutch play or whatever, I can provide further evidence using advanced stats from Natural Stat Trick, with Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews as stand-ins for a player who is used in an offensive role regardless of situation and a two-way player who is often called on to matchup against opposing centers and defend leads. We see that Kane's individual Corsi events (the total number of shots on goal, missed shots, and shots that were blocked taken by that player himself) were consistent regardless of score at 5-on-5 in the playoffs (15.4 per 60 trailing, 15.2 tied, 15.3 leading), whereas Toews had more individual even strength attempts when his team was not in the lead (11.1 per 60 trailing, 12.5 tied, 10.2 leading). Kane also had more high danger and rush chances with Chicago in the lead, leading to a better finishing rate on his chances, whereas Toews' high danger and rush chances actually dropped with his team in the lead, which is unusual for forwards but reflects the fact that it usually wasn't Toews' job to take offensive chances in that scenario:

5-on-5 Playoff Stats, 2008-2018 (source: Natural Stat Trick):

LeadingTied/Trailing
Kane Pts/602.832.06
Toews Pts/601.511.66
Kane iCF/6015.315.3
Toews iCF/6010.212.0
Kane iHDCF/603.82.2
Toews iHDCF/602.83.2
Kane Rush/600.90.5
Toews Rush/600.20.3
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(iCF - individual Corsi events, iHDCF - individual high danger chances, Rush - rush attempts)


So even though it has been claimed that a focus on stats causes voters to overrate offensive stars, I think the exact opposite should be true. A rational, detailed analysis of all the relevant numbers should generally favour two-way centers over one-dimensional offensive forwards. They deserve not only recognition for their defensive contributions and matchup deployment, but they should actually get extra credit for their offence because a majority of it comes in high leverage situations compared to offensive players who often pad their stats with their team's victory already mostly secured.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Glenn Hall in the playoffs:

One big "claim to fame", stopped the Canadiens dynasty at 5 in first round in 1961. Montreal finished regular season first with 92 points, Chicago third with 75 points. Black Hawks beat Montreal in 6, Glenn Hall shuts out Habs in games 5 & 6. Chicago goes on to win the Cup, if there was a Conn Smythe trophy surely Hall would have won it.
 
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BenchBrawl

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You really shouldn't use a career average for Lafleur when we all recognize that his case is based mainly on peak value. At his peak, he was scoring 1.5 points per game in the playoffs, which is incredible, esepcially considering nobody else on his team was close.

Anyway, that said, I do think Messier comes out ahead in overall playoff value due to longevity.

It's just that I strongly disagree with using career average for a player who has such a clearly defined prime.

Seriously, using career average for Lafleur (or even 7 years VsX as opposed to 6 years!) is just complicating things as opposed to bring clarity.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Seriously, using career average for Lafleur (or even 7 years VsX as opposed to 6 years!) is just complicating things as opposed to bring clarity.

When is context ever complicated?

Lafleur simply does poorly in that metric at this stage of voting because outside of his 6 year peak he is well below average for a player going at this stage of voting.

We have other forwards with longer primes and more relevant, ie better than average, seasons both in the playoffs and regular ones.

To use or over empathize only one metric to favour him would be doing a disservice to the project IMO.
 

wetcoast

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Lafleur had the higher (at least offensively) but significantly shorter peak/prime

Sure but no one is disputing that here.

Lafleur having the best consecutive peak at the same time in both the regular season and playoffs has always been his strongest arguement.

There are other players this round that have more arguements or more positives to complete their resumes in comparison.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Glenn Hall in the playoffs:

One big "claim to fame", stopped the Canadiens dynasty at 5 in first round in 1961. Montreal finished regular season first with 92 points, Chicago third with 75 points. Black Hawks beat Montreal in 6, Glenn Hall shuts out Habs in games 5 & 6. Chicago goes on to win the Cup, if there was a Conn Smythe trophy surely Hall would have won it.

Hall had some good moments in the playoffs, but I don't even know if he would have been the favorite in 1961. For what it's worth, the HHOF/SIHR study gave the retroactive Conn Smythe that year to Pierre Pilote: Retroactive Conn Smythe | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online (and the 1962 Smythe to Mikita in a losing cause).

Hall, of course, won the actual Smythe in 1968 for not allowing the expansion Blues to be completely embarrassed in the finals against Montreal.

Thanks for pointing this out though - shutting Montreal out twice in games 5 and 6 was a pretty big deal.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Sure but no one is disputing that here.

Lafleur having the best consecutive peak at the same time in both the regular season and playoffs has always been his strongest arguement.

There are other players this round that have more arguements or more positives to complete their resumes in comparison.

I think has more positives than any player left. He just has a pretty big negative (lack of longevity as an elite player).
 
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wetcoast

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I think has more positives than any player left. He just has a pretty big negative (lack of longevity as an elite player).

That's possible (I don't happen to agree but we all have our preferences) and at this point I think the next round of candidates could compete quite well for top 5 spots with the current group of players.
 

Sentinel

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Mikita, Messier, Ovechkin and Nighbor all have clearly greater primes than Lafleur and that longevity and prime is pretty equal to Lafleur's peak regular season and playoffs (which is 90% of his case).

The first 3 guys and probably Nighbor have arguments that their primes hold more value.

And that's just among forwards 2 goalies and Fetisov have impressive primes as well at face value.
How in hell is Mikita's or even Messier's prime better than Lafleur's??
 
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wetcoast

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How in hell is Mikita's or even Messier's prime better than Lafleur's??

I'm on my phone right now, I'll give a more detailed account later on,both players had longer primes and more relevant seasons.

Messier is the better playoff performer and both were better 2 way players as well.
 

Sentinel

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I'm on my phone right now, I'll give a more detailed account later on,both players had longer primes and more relevant seasons.

Messier is the better playoff performer and both were better 2 way players as well.
Longer prime does not equal better prime. Lafleur's prime was better than Messier's. In his prime Lafleur was the best player in the world, and that would be half a decade.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Also, wingers carry less value.

I can find numerous Cup champions who won with average wingers top to bottom.

Very rarely do you see a Cup winner without a high end C or D.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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The only real consistent winner since 1950 without a #1 PMD is probably Clarke's mid-70's Flyers...win in 74, win in 75, went in 76 with a fringe goalie, no #1 d-man...but Clarke...

Not that I'm ready for Clarke this round certainly...I'm also not in a hurry to massage a goal-scoring winger fetish either...
Yeah I'm a little shocked at the just... complete discounting of Clarke this round. I guess shiny scoring stats are more sexy, but those Flyers teams were not especially talented or deep (especially considering the Cup winners that surrounded them), and Clarke was 100% the guy on those teams.
 

Canadiens1958

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Beliveau never had Lafleur's peak. Besides, he's already in. I'm not comparing Lafleur to Beliveau or Gretzky.
A lot of bluster about how well players trickled past their prime, and I've already proven that Lafleur did far better than a few have insinuated. That's all support arguments anyways. The "meat" is how the players did at their very best.

Beliveau had a career.
 

Michael Farkas

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He's definitely a guy I want to watch more of before I decide...maybe the 1974 Final would be good to re-watch this round...Orr -> Espo effect ("allegedly" before I upset the other side), Clarke's prowess, etc.

Fetisov and Brodeur are absolute wagons...I had Fetisov at like 12 overall or something like that...I hope to be able to make a case for him...but it might not be til Saturday...
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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He's definitely a guy I want to watch more of before I decide...maybe the 1974 Final would be good to re-watch this round...Orr -> Espo effect ("allegedly" before I upset the other side), Clarke's prowess, etc.

Fetisov and Brodeur are absolute wagons...I had Fetisov at like 12 overall or something like that...I hope to be able to make a case for him...but it might not be til Saturday...
I need convincing on Fetisov, so I'll wait for you to make your case.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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Yeah I'm a little shocked at the just... complete discounting of Clarke this round. I guess shiny scoring stats are more sexy, but those Flyers teams were not especially talented or deep (especially considering the Cup winners that surrounded them), and Clarke was 100% the guy on those teams.

I don't think anyone is really discounting Clarke.

I think he's simply running into more accomplished C's like Nighbor and Messier specifically.

Was there a playoff where the Flyers went all the way that you can definitively say he was the best and most important player to their success?

I don't know. But i do know that about Nighbor and Messier.


As requested for the ATD, here's even-strength VsX. I'm posting this here (rather than the ATD forum) as I'm sure there are undrafteds included here.

Disclaimers:
  • All the ES numbers were taken from Overpass's spreadsheet, and the yearly benchmarks were taken from Sprague Cleghorn's post. I haven't attempted to confirm/verify any of their information.
  • The data only goes back to 1960.
  • Each year is normalized to 70.

How much more offensively potent was Clarke over a Messier? Not much really, especially looking at even stregnth. Clarke was better defensively but Messier was just as good if not an even better PK'er. And nobody is going to put Clarke anywhere close to Messier in playoff accolades no matter how much we stretch and bend.

Nighbor is a lot like Clarke but simply better in the postseason.


Results - top 300 ES VsX (1960-2017) - best seven years

1GRETZKY, WAYNE 111
2JAGR, JAROMIR 81
3ESPOSITO, PHIL 75
4LEMIEUX, MARIO 74
5HULL, BOBBY 74
6LAFLEUR, GUY 72
7MIKITA, STAN 71
8CROSBY, SIDNEY 70
9YZERMAN, STEVE 68
10THORNTON, JOE 68
11BOSSY, MIKE 67
12OVECHKIN, ALEX 67
13SAKIC, JOE 66
14DIONNE, MARCEL 66
15KURRI, JARI 66
16ULLMAN, NORM 66
17RICHARD, HENRI 65
18LINDROS, ERIC 65
19RATELLE, JEAN 65
20IGINLA, JAROME 65
21ST. LOUIS, MARTIN 64
22HOWE, GORDIE 64
23KANE, PATRICK 64
24ORR, BOBBY 64
25TROTTIER, BRYAN 64
26MAHOVLICH, FRANK 64
27LECLAIR, JOHN 64
28BATHGATE, ANDY 64
29SELANNE, TEEMU 63
30MALKIN, EVGENI 63
31ROBITAILLE, LUC 63
32SEDIN, HENRIK 63
33OATES, ADAM 62
34MESSIER, MARK 62
35STASTNY, PETER 62
36RECCHI, MARK 61
37HULL, BRETT 61
38BUCYK, JOHNNY 60
39SUNDIN, MATS 60
40BELIVEAU, JEAN 60
41BURE, PAVEL 59
42FORSBERG, PETER 59
43SEDIN, DANIEL 59
44GETZLAF, RYAN 59
45TANGUAY, ALEX 58
46HODGE, KEN 58
47CLARKE, BOBBY 58
48GILBERT, ROD 58
49HEATLEY, DANY 58
50HAWERCHUK, DALE 58
51MODANO, MIKE 58
52FRANCIS, RON 58
53DELVECCHIO, ALEX 57
54FLEURY, THEOREN 57
55FEDOROV, SERGEI 57
56STAMKOS, STEVEN 57
57GILMOUR, DOUG 57
58SAVARD, DENIS 57
59DATSYUK, PAVEL 57
60TURGEON, PIERRE 57
61SITTLER, DARRYL 57
62STAAL, ERIC 57
63KOVALCHUK, ILYA 57
64GOULET, MICHEL 56
65SHUTT, STEVE 56
66SPEZZA, JASON 56
67WHEELER, BLAKE 56
68ELIAS, PATRIK 56
69PERREAULT, GILBERT 56
70PERRY, COREY 56
71COFFEY, PAUL 56
72BENN, JAMIE 56
73TAVARES, JOHN 55
74ANDERSON, GLENN 55
75ROENICK, JEREMY 55
76LECAVALIER, VINCENT 55
77ZETTERBERG, HENRIK 55
78KARIYA, PAUL 55
79MOGILNY, ALEXANDER 55
80LEMAIRE, JACQUES 55
81ALFREDSSON, DANIEL 55
82TOEWS, JONATHAN 54
83AMONTE, TONY 54
84KESSEL, PHIL 54
85HOSSA, MARIAN 54
86RIBEIRO, MIKE 54
87MULLEN, JOE 54
88TKACHUK, KEITH 54
89BACKSTROM, NICKLAS 54
90DEMITRA, PAVOL 53
91NICHOLLS, BERNIE 53
92LaFONTAINE, PAT 53
93CICCARELLI, DINO 53
94NASH, RICK 53
95KOPITAR, ANZE 52
96NASLUND, MARKUS 52
97PROVOST, CLAUDE 52
98BACKSTROM, RALPH 52
99KREJCI, DAVID 52
100PARISE, ZACH 52
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Gretzky is off the charts (even more dominant when looking just as ES, compared to looking at total offense).

Defensemen look much worse compared to the overall VsX summary. Coffey, Bourque and Karlsson are the only blueliners in the top 300. Most (all?) of Kelly's time from 1960 onwards was as a forward.

Henri Richard looks superb according to this metric (perhaps the strongest proof of his excellent ES scoring and limited powerplay time?) Joe Thornton also looks better than I thought.

Hall of Famer Dave Andreychuk is out of the 200, behind luminaries like Garry Unger, Miro Satan and Dennis Hextall.



TABLE 1 - BEST SEVEN YEARS, POINTS (last updated: 2018)

Wayne Gretzky 155.6
Phil Esposito 130.4
Gordie Howe 125.5
Mario Lemieux 119.8
Bobby Orr 114.8
Jaromir Jagr 114.2
Bobby Hull 108.3
Stan Mikita 107.8
Jean Beliveau 105.7
Guy Lafleur 104.5
Ted Lindsay 104.4
Marcel Dionne 103.3
Sidney Crosby 102.4
Maurice Richard 102.4
Howie Morenz 102.2
Andy Bathgate 101.1
Alex Ovechkin 98.4
Joe Sakic 97.7
Bill Cowley 97.0
Charlie Conacher 96.2
Bill Cook 96.0
Joe Thornton 95.6
Frank Boucher 95.1
Mike Bossy 94.8
Evgeni Malkin 93.7
Bryan Trottier 93.7
Steve Yzerman 93.2
Teemu Selanne 92.7
Martin St. Louis 92.4
Syl Apps Sr 92.4
Sweeney Schriner 91.3
Bobby Clarke 90.4
Max Bentley 90.4
Peter Forsberg 90.3
Nels Stewart 90.3
Adam Oates 90.0
Bernie Geoffrion 89.9
Mark Messier 89.6
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

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