Tkachuk or Marner

[typicalsavage]

He isn't just grit. He's grit + skill. A rare thing.

You act like Marner is a cream puff, compared to most of the skill guys in the league Marners one of the few that is soft and shy away from contact. Idk how you can defend eith Tkatchuk being better when he significantly outscores both. You want grit so bad get Kyle Clifford. Kane, Kucherov, Pastrnak etc arent gritty players doesnt mean a guy like Tkatchuk is better than them. Grit is easy to get, a 90+ point player isnt.

 

[typicalsavage]

It's closer than many people pretend here and Tkachuk would actually be a much better fit for Toronto.

How? Tkatchuk isnt going to drive a line with Tavares or Matthews or QB a pp like Marner does. I love when people make stupid comments pretending like they know about a team they dont watch.

 

[Rals]

How? Tkatchuk isnt going to drive a line with Tavares or Matthews or QB a pp like Marner does. I love when people make stupid comments pretending like they know about a team they dont watch.

You think Brady + JT wouldn't drive a line? (Or the entire pace of a game when they are out there?)

You've never seen Brady play. He's a driver and while he's doing it he has 5 guys on the other team making mistakes to try and hit him.

 

[Rals]

You act like Marner is a cream puff, compared to most of the skill guys in the league Marners one of the few that is soft and shy away from contact. Idk how you can defend eith Tkatchuk being better when he significantly outscores both. You want grit so bad get Kyle Clifford. Kane, Kucherov, Pastrnak etc arent gritty players doesnt mean a guy like Tkatchuk is better than them. Grit is easy to get, a 90+ point player isnt.

Yes you can hire a plug and take up a roster spot and play him 6 minutes.


Brady plays 20, with skill. And has grit. That is rare. Even more rare then a pure points guy on a high flying team.

 

[typicalsavage]

You think Brady + JT wouldn't drive a line? (Or the entire pace of a game when they are out there?)

You've never seen Brady play. He's a driver and while he's doing it he has 5 guys on the other team making mistakes to try and hit him.

Im not saying he isnt a driver, you think on a line of him and Matthews/Tavares he would be the one carrying the line because thats what Marner does. People overrate grit so much, I remember how overrated Simmonds was because of his “grit”.

 

[typicalsavage]

Yes you can hire a plug and take up a roster spot and play him 6 minutes.


Brady plays 20, with skill. And has grit. That is rare. Even more rare then a pure points guy on a high flying team.

That means jack s***. According to that logic prime Lucic is more valuable than guys like prime Kessel. You realize Marner is prt of the reason why the Leafs score right, its not the other way around like youre maakinf it out to be.

 

[Rals]

Im not saying he isnt a driver, you think on a line of him and Matthews/Tavares he would be the one carrying the line because thats what Marner does. People overrate grit so much, I remember how overrated Simmonds was because of his “grit”.

Yes. He drives lines. He drives whole games. Watch the rangers game v sens. Now, what exactly that means is harder to define because "grit" is a nebulous word.

He is huge, his is skilled. He is relentless, he is agressive as all hell, he's not a bad scorer. He lives and dies hockey. He's young. He would without a doubt create space and opportunities. TOR has playmakers already. I'm taking about trading a surplus for a need.

 

[Baxterman]

You're almost making the argument that Brady is younger and closing the gap in point difference year by year.

Obviously Marner is the better scorer. I guess the question is would you rather have an ~80 pts finesse player or a ~60 pts does everything heart and soul player.

Like when Roberts and mogilny were both on the leafs, Roberts made a bigger difference in a playoff series even though mogilny would get more points.

8o points finesse guy thanks. Talent wins in this league.

That is also wildly overrating the so called intangibles that Brady Tkachuk has and downplaying the intangibles that Marner has. I would say the difference between the two outside of pure points is pretty minimal.

I know Brady has an undeserved reputation of bringing so much more than points but it really isn't true at all. Marner is a much, much better hockey player. It isn't even remotely close.

 

[hoglund]

Brady Tkachuk or Mitch Marner.


I'm arguing with a friend over who would make the leafs better right now.

I say Brady.

Marner will be out until Christmas, so 12 to 16 games, which would make Tkachuk better. Marner has 18 points in 18 games so he was on pace for 82 points, what's Tkachuk at?

 

[Baxterman]

Yes. He drives lines. He drives whole games. Watch the rangers game v sens. Now, what exactly that means is harder to define because "grit" is a nebulous word.

He is huge, his is skilled. He is relentless, he is agressive as all hell, he's not a bad scorer. He lives and dies hockey. He's young. He would without a doubt create space and opportunities. TOR has playmakers already. I'm taking about trading a surplus for a need.

LOL

This is such crap. It isn't even true about his much better brother. You are wildly overrating the grit and other stuff that guys bring. It isn't nothing but it certainly doesn't make up for the huge skill gap between Brady and Marner.

 

[Rals]

That means jack s***. According to that logic prime Lucic is more valuable than guys like prime Kessel. You realize Marner is prt of the reason why the Leafs score right, its not the other way around like youre maakinf it out to be.

There was a time where Lucic might have been considered more valuable the Kessel.

But obviously not when his career is almost done. Your attempt at a disingenuous comparison actually kind of made my point.

 

[Baxterman]

There was a time where Lucic might have been considered more valuable the Kessel.

But obviously not when his career is almost done. Your attempt at a disingenuous comparison actually kind of made my point.

There was no point when Lucic would be considered more important than Kessel.

 

[Rals]

There was no point when Lucic would be considered more important than Kessel.

2010 could make a good argument

 

[Baxterman]

2010 could make a good argument

Phil Kessel was a much better player in 2010 than Lucic was I am not sure why you are posting that unless you are changing your mind.

 

[Rals]

In

Phil Kessel was a much better player in 2010 than Lucic was I am not sure why you are posting that unless you are changing your mind.

2010-11
Lucic 30g 32a
Kessel 32g 32a

Lucic won a cup
Kessel was malgined for eating hotdogs

"Considered better" is a reference to public opinion

So are you telling me there wasn't a moment in history when people where higher on Lucic after winning a cup

Compared to when Kessel was being bashed by the media?

 

[NyQuil]

That is also wildly overrating the so called intangibles that Brady Tkachuk has and downplaying the intangibles that Marner has. I would say the difference between the two outside of pure points is pretty minimal.

Yeah, this I don't agree with.

It's not enough to put Brady ahead, but in all aspects aside from scoring I'm pretty comfortable taking Brady.

There was criticism of Marner early this season (from Leafs fans mind you) because when he isn't scoring, he was unnoticeable.

Brady is noticeable in every game he plays.

I know Brady has an undeserved reputation of bringing so much more than points but it really isn't true at all.

Yeah, this isn't really true at all.

Tkachuk is the heart of the Senators - Seravalli had that right.

You don't have to drag our player down to make your player look better.

 

[Baxterman]

In


2010-11
Lucic 30g 32a
Kessel 32g 32a

Lucic won a cup
Kessel was malgined for eating hotdogs

"Considered better" is a reference to public opinion

So are you telling me there wasn't a moment in history when people where higher on Lucic after winning a cup

Compared to when Kessel was being bashed by the media?

Lucic's team won a cup he certainly didn't do it on his own and wasn't the best player on his team.

Lucic was also coming off a 20 point season and Kessel would have an 80 point season the next year. I think there would have been some short sighted people that would have taken Lucic but I think most people would have gone with the clearly more talented player in Kessel.

 

[Rals]

Lucic's team won a cup he certainly didn't do it on his own and wasn't the best player on his team.

Lucic was also coming off a 20 point season and Kessel would have an 80 point season the next year. I think there would have been some short sighted people that would have taken Lucic but I think most people would have gone with the clearly more talented player in Kessel.

You said never, now you are back tracking. Yes Kessel is better... but for a time.. and maybe for the boston bruins who had kessel but traded him lucic was more valuable. They did win a cup afterall. It's possible that a team with a need for grit/skill performs better with that kind of player vs a pure skill player.

it is my assertion that currently Toronto is a team like that, and that Brady is comparable value for a switch.


now, i think if you considered contracts and everything very few GM's would trade Brady for Marner.

 

[Baxterman]

You said never, now you are back tracking. Yes Kessel is better... but for a time.. and maybe for the boston bruins who had kessel but traded him lucic was more valuable. They did win a cup afterall. It's possible that a team with a need for grit/skill performs better with that kind of player vs a pure skill player.

it is my assertion that currently Toronto is a team like that, and that Brady is comparable value for a switch.


now, i think if you considered contracts and everything very few GM's would trade Brady for Marner.

How am I backtracking? I am saying even in your scenario Kessel was considered the better player.

You are wrong about Brady being a comparable value it is not even close. He does not bring the qualities that you think he does.

If you consider contracts 31 out of 31 GMs get rid of Brady and bring in Marner and there is zero hesitation in doing so.

 

[Rals]

How am I backtracking? I am saying even in your scenario Kessel was considered the better player.

You are wrong about Brady being a comparable value it is not even close. He does not bring the qualities that you think he does.

If you consider contracts 31 out of 31 GMs get rid of Brady and bring in Marner and there is zero hesitation in doing so.

No hesitation at 11m a season?. sure

 

[Baxterman]

No hesitation at 11m a season?. sure

For a 90 point forward who is 22 years old and much better than the guy you are giving up?

Yes no hesitation, even if they don't want to keep him they can flip him for a package better than Brady Tkachuk.

 

[Rals]

Its a pretty steep contract. there would be hesitation.

 

[Chef de Cuisine]

how is this a debate

Marner

A I N E C

 

[NyQuil]

Its a pretty steep contract. there would be hesitation.

That doesn't really have much to do about Marner or Tkachuk though.

That's Dubas.

The reason he got such a big contract is because he produced so much.

 

[Rals]

how is this a debate

Marner

A I N E C

everything is a debate, see flat earthers