Tribute Timothy Liljegren Discussion Thread

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I'm a big fan of Liljegren. If he becomes a Trouba I'd be thrilled.
I see that happening if the leafs give him opportunity and a path

Kudos to Justin Holl for his services but he shouldn't be a leaf after this season

Lilijgren is beyond ready and deserving and well probably need capspace from holl/Ritchie or kerfoot to make some moves.

Lilijgren-Sandin is my dream 2nd pairing for next year. Low key hoping Niemela is better fit than both to play top pairing with Mo giving us two elite pairs with 3 very young and 1 still great 1D in Rielly
 
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I see that happening if the leafs give him opportunity and a path

Kudos to Justin Holl for his services but he shouldn't be a leaf after this season

Lilijgren is beyond ready and deserving and well probably need capspace from holl/Ritchie or kerfoot to make some moves.

Lilijgren-Sandin is my dream 2nd pairing for next year. Low key hoping Niemela is better fit than both to play top pairing with Mo giving us two elite pairs with 3 very young and 1 still great 1D in Rielly
Niemala is doing unprecedented things right now in Liiga. Assuming health, he's going to have a monster WJHC and I imagine will be a more household name at that point.

Of course, that will come with people disecting his game even further and trying to convince everyone that he sucks.
 
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Niemala is doing unprecedented things right now in Liiga. Assuming health, he's going to have a monster WJHC and I imagine will be a more household name at that point.

Of course, that will come with people disecting his game even further and trying to convince everyone that he sucks.
He deserves to be.

Niemela by start of 2023 may surpass Amirov and Robertson as our best and most recognized prospect

Both of those guys should be leafs kapanen level players if they don't hit their ceilings so getting a player better than that in the 3rd round I believe is a very good pick. Full credit to Dubas for that great pick.
 
Just saw his practice interview today. He might not be ready for Top pairing minutes but he is 100% ready for Movember.
 
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I had to turn off my TV yesterday... The continuous negativity over Liljegren and Dermott was too much for me. Not one of them gave a valid reason for it... All I heard was things like "If they are expecting to win with those 2 in the lineup they're in trouble." ...(Paraphrasing)There was lots more and the love for Holl was also confusing. Either some of us are seeing something very different from all these so-called analysts or this has become a media echo chamber. All I'm asking for is for these 3 young defencemen to be given a fair chance because without that happening (including the balance of this season) our defence corps will slip back to the level we've suffered with for over a decade now. Barring a trade , probably of someone the caliber of Nylander, we won't be getting an established top 4 d-man in the foreseeable future so ,in my opinion, give the guys you've drafted a developed?? a legitimate chance. (Yes the ?? are intentional)
 
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Friendly reminder that Dermott is quite good, and an extended look in the top 4 is exactly the chance he's earned.

I wonder why the leafs 3rd pairing guys lead that table so highly... could it be they are one of the most sheltered pairings in the league historically or are Dermott/Sandin really a better pairing than Rielly/Brodie?

I mean you could try Dermott on the 2nd pairing on his offside but that is really the only spot for him in the top 4. Given how Muzzin has played this year I dont expect that pairing to look good unfortunately
 


Friendly reminder that Dermott is quite good, and an extended look in the top 4 is exactly the chance he's earned.

I would not fret too much these are non hockey media type click bait people .. they have zero idea on hockey skills and who has what skills .. quite frankly most of people even on here have no idea that Rielly and Dermy are WAY WAY faster than any other D men we have on either Leafs or Marlies .. now that is not only hockey skill required for defense success but it sure helps when you have flat out pull away speed at your disposal
 
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I wonder why the leafs 3rd pairing guys lead that table so highly... could it be they are one of the most sheltered pairings in the league historically or are Dermott/Sandin really a better pairing than Rielly/Brodie?

I mean you could try Dermott on the 2nd pairing on his offside but that is really the only spot for him in the top 4. Given how Muzzin has played this year I dont expect that pairing to look good unfortunately
They are heavily sheltered, but they do get great results. This has been the case for Dermott the last couple seasons as well, at some point you need to give him some more and tougher minutes to see what he can do in those matchups because he's killing it in soft usage.
 
They are heavily sheltered, but they do get great results. This has been the case for Dermott the last couple seasons as well, at some point you need to give him some more and tougher minutes to see what he can do in those matchups because he's killing it in soft usage.
Yes Dermott has definitely done quite well in his heavily sheltered offensive 3rd pairing role. That is undeniable.

However when Muzzin resigned and now especially after Rielly resigned I dont see him getting that opportunity in Toronto. I've always thought he was a good player but don't think he will end up a proper top 4 guy as he has a tendency to go a little deer in the headlights and/or over complicate things. He needs the Hainsey talk, I.e. some coach ot trainer to sit down with him and let him know he is going to be successful in the NHL as a transition or defensive player not doing spin o ramas as the last player back

Edit: he has moved up the lineup a few times and looked poor other than last year during all the injuries where he played pretty well
 
I turned off talk radio and my days are better.

I don’t give a damn about the opinions of any of these talking heads, with the exception of Bobby Mac.

I prefer to watch the games and make my own damn conclusions. I trust my observations more than the blowhards blabbering all day.
 
Who the f is Justin Bourne and why is he worth copying tweets from?

NHL analyst for Sportsnet right now. Former AHLer hockey player and also spent time as a video coach with the Marlies.

Not to say his tweets or opinions should matter more, just answering the question.

Clearly the idea that Dermott or Liljegren should come out for Holl is rather bizarre right now. Holl has been struggling a lot this season and only has himself to blame for sitting out... this isn't a bad decision from Keefe, it's an easy one. Give the younger guys leash. Play your best players. The Leafs desperately need to find out if Liljegren can hang in a long-term situation as well.
 
Honest question - is there any proof that the poster in here claiming to know Borje Salming actually knows Borje Salming. All of my insticts say its bullshit but some of you seem to be giving credibility to it which makes me think maybe I missed something where he proved he actually knows Borje?
That poster name drops in every thread for no reason. Hes gotta be running out of Leafs players he is friends with by now.

He also made a claim that Amirov is fat and that he doesn't work out at all, so he doesn't think he'll make it. I then posted a pic of Amirov that shows he clearly is not fat. I think its safe to say that poster shouldn't be taken seriously
 
Yes Dermott has definitely done quite well in his heavily sheltered offensive 3rd pairing role. That is undeniable.

However when Muzzin resigned and now especially after Rielly resigned I dont see him getting that opportunity in Toronto. I've always thought he was a good player but don't think he will end up a proper top 4 guy as he has a tendency to go a little deer in the headlights and/or over complicate things. He needs the Hainsey talk, I.e. some coach ot trainer to sit down with him and let him know he is going to be successful in the NHL as a transition or defensive player not doing spin o ramas as the last player back

Edit: he has moved up the lineup a few times and looked poor other than last year during all the injuries where he played pretty well
No one can make that determination yet .. not you, not me, not Shanny and not Keefer .. now Keefer or Shanny might do it anywho due to CAP/trade etc but young defenders with requisite skills take a long long long time to develop (some are faster sure) and it is not until mid-late 20s does any hockey person know what a defender is gonna be .. what you do know is MOST are gonna FAIL and not make it .. to me I always look at guys who are lacking in a core skill because they are most likely to fail .. so for instance Sandin has many amazing skills BUT in a race of our 7 defense down ice goal line to goal line we know 3 things - Rielly will win every race he is not tired, Dermy will come 2nd in every race he is not tired, (Brodie Muzzy Holl Lily ) will fall 3-6th every time and SANDIN will come in LAST place every single time .. why? because his stride is very very short and he can't keep up .. will he change his stride and develop speed MAYBE but odds are very very very LOW .. so as much as many folks on here like his core strength, his edge work, his hands, his vision etc he has a fundamental flaw in his game which is da reason he was available so far back in 1st round of draft .. in slower speed Marlie games he will be best defense on ice yes I have witnessed it .. in higher speed NHL games he will cost team likely 1 goal every 2 games when he is last man back and can't keep up
 
If you're on the twitter you must be some type of expert/insider. They don't give those accounts out to just anyone.
Justin Bourne IS an expert/insider, though. He had a short pro-hockey career in the ECHL and AHL, was a video coach for the Marlies for a bit, and has been a writer/analyst for a bunch of legit places like Sportsnet, the Athletic and the Score. Also the son of ex-NHLer Bob Bourne (good player for the Isles back in the day).

I disagree with him on Holl vs. Dermott, I think Dermott has been outplaying Holl this year, but he’s not some rando.
 
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No one can make that determination yet .. not you, not me, not Shanny and not Keefer .. now Keefer or Shanny might do it anywho due to CAP/trade etc but young defenders with requisite skills take a long long long time to develop (some are faster sure) and it is not until mid-late 20s does any hockey person know what a defender is gonna be .. what you do know is MOST are gonna FAIL and not make it .. to me I always look at guys who are lacking in a core skill because they are most likely to fail .. so for instance Sandin has many amazing skills BUT in a race of our 7 defense down ice goal line to goal line we know 3 things - Rielly will win every race he is not tired, Dermy will come 2nd in every race he is not tired, (Brodie Muzzy Holl Lily ) will fall 3-6th every time and SANDIN will come in LAST place every single time .. why? because his stride is very very short and he can't keep up .. will he change his stride and develop speed MAYBE but odds are very very very LOW .. so as much as many folks on here like his core strength, his edge work, his hands, his vision etc he has a fundamental flaw in his game which is da reason he was available so far back in 1st round of draft .. in slower speed Marlie games he will be best defense on ice yes I have witnessed it .. in higher speed NHL games he will cost team likely 1 goal every 2 games when he is last man back and can't keep up
While it is true defenders do develop later we might be approaching that point for Dermott. He is turning 25 in under 2 months.

I agree Dermott certainly has the tools to be a good defenders im just not sure he will be able to utilize those tools to the fullest extent. I see him as a bottom 4 guys. I.e better suited to a carrying a bottom pairing but can also play 2nd fiddle on the 2nd pairing.

I agree Sandin definitely needs to improve his skating. Hopefully better defensive positioning and gap control can help mitigate those deficiencies as I agree that his skating won't change drastically at this point. As others have said he needs to have a really athletic (fast and strong) defensive partner to help cover up his weakness.
 
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I would not fret too much these are non hockey media type click bait people .. they have zero idea on hockey skills and who has what skills .. quite frankly most of people even on here have no idea that Rielly and Dermy are WAY WAY faster than any other D men we have on either Leafs or Marlies .. now that is not only hockey skill required for defense success but it sure helps when you have flat out pull away speed at your disposal

This is why you need a balanced view. These Stats people do have information to contribute to the conversation, but they aren't, nor should they be the entire conversation. It's the same as the old school people, and the eye test... they have thoughts and opinions that should be part of the conversation as well. It's when you can properly take both stats, and old school smarts, to make they useful that you have the right read. Both groups can learn off of each other.
 
Justin Bourne IS an expert/insider, though. He had a short pro-hockey career in the ECHL and AHL, was a video coach for the Marlies for a bit, and has been a writer/analyst for a bunch of legit places like Sportsnet, the Athletic and the Score. Also the son of ex-NHLer Bob Bourne (good player for the Isles back in the day).

I disagree with him on Holl vs. Dermott, I think Dermott has been outplaying Holl this year, but he’s not some rando.

i always find it funny that fans call the analysts on TSN or Sportsnet stupid or that they don’t know what they are talking about. More than half of them played in the NHL or some sort of professional hockey. They have a level of understanding that we don’t. They can pick up on the minor details we overlook. If many analysts are questioning the skill set of some of our bottom pairing guys there is definitely some validity to it. They may take it to the extreme for entertainment purposes etc.

But they are right, our dcore as constructed is weaker compared to other teams. An upgrade or one of the three kids taking a big step in their game could really help things.
 
This is why you need a balanced view. These Stats people do have information to contribute to the conversation, but they aren't, nor should they be the entire conversation. It's the same as the old school people, and the eye test... they have thoughts and opinions that should be part of the conversation as well. It's when you can properly take both stats, and old school smarts, to make they useful that you have the right read. Both groups can learn off of each other.

I think it is also very important to note that "stats" people, at least legitimate and reputable ones, are not just looking at spreadsheets and numbers. There is a lot of logical inferencing and application, much of which is the same sort of mechanism used in the more subjective methods of evaluation (i.e. eye-tests), required to properly use statistics.

If anyone knows anything about statistics, that is pretty much the first thing they teach you about statistics besides basic probability.

Otherwise, you'd get a bunch of people saying Sandin-Dermott is better than Rielly-Brodie because they have a higher GF%... totally ignoring the fact that Rielly-Brodie are playing far tougher minutes with more defensive responsibilities, and therefore would need to be absolutely exceptional to do as well as guys in a lesser role.

One of the many things statistics can do is create an intelligent and objective guide to subjective methods, and the way I look at it, is that they effectively act like another scout, evaluator, coach, etc. when used in the right hands.

For example, Scout A, B, and C can all say similar or completely different things about Player X, and those may differ completely from what statistics will say about Player X. You can't entirely trust statistics because, at this point, they don't cover everything about a player. At the same time, you can't just trust Scout A, B, C because they each have a subjective perception of the player. Even if they are experts in their fields, they are still prone to make a lot more mistakes than objective means such as statistics.

And that is why, as you said, you use both. If you don't, you are asking to be left behind.
 
i always find it funny that fans call the analysts on TSN or Sportsnet stupid or that they don’t know what they are talking about. More than half of them played in the NHL or some sort of professional hockey. They have a level of understanding that we don’t. They can pick up on the minor details we overlook. If many analysts are questioning the skill set of some of our bottom pairing guys there is definitely some validity to it. They may take it to the extreme for entertainment purposes etc.

But they are right, our dcore as constructed is weaker compared to other teams. An upgrade or one of the three kids taking a big step in their game could really help things.

I can't speak for everyone, but typically when I say an analyst is stupid, it has to do more with their reasoning than their claim.

If they want to say Liljegren is bad, then that is fine. But they better have very strong support to back it up... Otherwise, they are severely failing at their jobs as analysts.

A lot of those analysts do a terrible job at supporting their arguments. They either use extremely small sample sizes, have very inconsistent expectations (i.e. Brannstrom vs. Liljegren), take things to the extreme and make much loftier claims than their evidence suggests, or just flat out make up crap altogether. A lot of this has to do with blatant bias/favourtism, which is another thing that would cause an analyst to fail at their jobs.

If these guys are experts and have all of this experience that fans do not have, then they should be a lot more insightful and effective analysts than an average fan... and TBH, most of them are not. At least from what I have seen and heard from them.
 
Both Fox and Sandin are listed at 5'11" and roughly 180, so the size argument holds no merit. Fox isn't a blazer, but his lateral movement and edges are fantastic.

This isn't to say I expect Sandin to follow a similar trajectory, I don't. Simply stating fact.
Not that you downplayed it any, but Fox's decision making is elite, which is a huge arrow in a 1st pairing Dman's quiver
 
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