Tim Thomas or Roberto Luongo & all goalie trade discussion

[ACC1224]

So thats why we don't get him? Because people are going to be upset or hope that he retires before the contract is up? Why are people more worried about the contract then the contribution on the ice?

The worry is he doesn't retire before his contract is up. I'd be fine with obtaining him at a minimum cost.

In a Salary Cap world, contract and contribution go hand in hand.

 

[Stats01]

The worry is he doesn't retire before his contract is up. I'd be fine with obtaining him at a minimum cost.

In a Salary Cap world, contract and contribution go hand in hand.

I get that, but man we've missed the playoffs for almost a decade...at some point you have to get aggressive, and take a risk. It's not like we don't have the cap space to do it, we're looking golden this year and especially next.

 

[Canucks LB]

I get that, but man we've missed the playoffs for almost a decade...at some point you have to get aggressive, and take a risk.

Look at the jays as a perfect example.

They sacrificed a future for the present, Burke knows this and needs to pull the trigger eventually.

 

[topched]

Look at the jays as a perfect example.

They sacrificed a future for the present, Burke knows this and needs to pull the trigger eventually.

A lot of people against the trade don't like the contract, wait for something better.

I'm trying to figure out what that better option is. FA's don't sign with losing teams. FA Goalies are rare, Bryzgalov is the last big name to hit the market, and he got a more ridiculous contract than Luongo. (Even under the new system it would still be outrageous).

The time is now to acquire a goalie. Luongo gives us stability for the next 5 years at least, in that time we can groom a young goaltender or two who can succeed him... while also making the playoffs and attracting better talent because we are a winning team.

With this deal you're likely not even sacrificing significant future talent to acquire him... its future cap space.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Look at the jays as a perfect example.

They sacrificed a future for the present, Burke knows this and needs to pull the trigger eventually.

Burkes strength is in his trading saavy....Hopefully years of bottom dwelling and acquiring prospects will be enough to package some of these assets for some solid roster players that will eventually make the Leafs competitive again...which would most likely make the Leafs a viable destination for high end Free Agents.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I get that, but man we've missed the playoffs for almost a decade...at some point you have to get aggressive, and take a risk. It's not like we don't have the cap space to do it, we're looking golden this year and especially next.

I could agree with that, but it's actually more than a risk. It's pretty much guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

And cap space isn't too plentiful. We have "room" but we're going to need to resign Phaneuf and Kessel, or replace them with what would have to be equal or better players at similar costs, as well as pay the first line center we'll need to have, Gardiner will probably need to get paid eventually, etc.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

The worry is he doesn't retire before his contract is up. I'd be fine with obtaining him at a minimum cost.

In a Salary Cap world, contract and contribution go hand in hand.

Couldn't agree more than this assessment. Not a Luongo fan...at all...but I wouldn't have objected to Burke going hard after Brad Richards when he was available...even on one of those stupid contracts. I just think Mr. Richards is worth it for what he brings to the table. He is a winner. He led his team to the Stanley Cup and was the most valuable player in doing so. And 31 isn't old. Luongo is 33 and his contract takes him to 43.....If you are on board with this...then you should be livid that the Leafs didn't offer a better player a similar contract when he was available. Say 10 years for 70M should have been offered.

 

[topched]

I could agree with that, but it's actually more than a risk. It's pretty much guaranteed to cause problems down the road.

And cap space isn't too plentiful. We have "room" but we're going to need to resign Phaneuf and Kessel, or replace them with what would have to be equal or better players at similar costs, as well as pay the first line center we'll need to have, Gardiner will probably need to get paid eventually, etc.

You've gotta realize that we're likely not adding much salary in resigning our own guys. Kessel is going to get more $$ and Phaneuf less... so that is negligible.Gards will get paid, but we've got lots of expriring contracts, Komisarek, Connolly, Lombardi to name a few.

We've got a ton of cap space, and if you believe that Luongo can be an elite goaltender for 5 years then its worth the "risk" in keeping his cap space after he's retired. If Van bears some of the cost, then its a different story also.

Also look at the recent "contenders"... the likes of LA with Quick and Bernier, Boston with Thomas and Rask, Vancouver with Luongo and Schneider and even Chicago with when they were paying Niemi and Huet etc. As long as you ensure that you've got a good succession plan with a couple of young draft pick options... that can play behind Luongo at the end (or take over) at entry level salary... then you're golden.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

LOL Oh my god people, his cap hit is 5.35M. MUCH LOWER than the $7-8M contracts being handed out to stars today. Remember 40 year old Ed Belfour in Toronto? He was great.

Give me Luongo please, Burke.

 

[indigobuffalo]

No one is making it out to be bad. A contract can't be considered good if you're hoping the Player retires before it ends.

Actually, the hope, as with any contract for any player, is that he earns it through the entire contract.

If Luongo is being paid his $1M and still a capable goaltender in the NHL, then he is an extremely valuable asset, especially to welfare teams.

Having a guy owed so little actual money with a cap hit of $5.33M would look mighty appetizing to a team like Phoenix or Florida.

And IF Luongo is not capable of playing at the level necessary for NHL competition, then he retires, and it's no loss to the Leafs.

You can't lose with Luongo's contract. Even if he isn't able to handle the Toronto spotlight, he has trade value no matter what, so we can recoup the cost to acquire him.

 

[colchar]

So thats why we don't get him? Because people are going to be upset or hope that he retires before the contract is up? Why are people more worried about the contract then the contribution on the ice?

Because with a lower salary cap his contract will make it more difficult to fill other needs. If there was no salary cap then nobody would care what they were paying him as it simply wouldn't matter. But in a salary cap world, especially one in which the cap is about to come down, his contract matters.

 

[New Liskeard]

Actually, the hope, as with any contract for any player, is that he earns it through the entire contract.

If Luongo is being paid his $1M and still a capable goaltender in the NHL, then he is an extremely valuable asset, especially to welfare teams.

Having a guy owed so little actual money with a cap hit of $5.33M would look mighty appetizing to a team like Phoenix or Florida.

And IF Luongo is not capable of playing at the level necessary for NHL competition, then he retires, and it's no loss to the Leafs.

You can't lose with Luongo's contract. Even if he isn't able to handle the Toronto spotlight, he has trade value no matter what, so we can recoup the cost to acquire him.

There is nothing appealing in aquiring a goalie at 34 who has a contract and cap hit till 42, and taking a 5.3 cap hit on a player who is not performing up to standard. His oontract is not insured due to the length, and teams will not pay 3 million in salary for a back up goalie, where that money could be used in a full time player. If you think there is a large market for him with his NTC and his contract, then good luck to you.

 

[Caustic]

Vancouver fan coming in peace.

Honestly, Luongo would be the best thing that happened to Toronto in a long time. I've watched the guy for years and while I will admit sometimes we've been left scratching our head over how he's been unable to step his game up in the playoffs, he has been the best goalie we've ever had and has brought Vancouver a long way since his arrival.

Here are the facts:

Pros:
1) His contract is long, but it is very reasonable for a goalie of his calibre. Try getting any other goalie with his stats for just over 5m. Good luck.
2) He is very competitive, and pushes his teammates to be so.
3) He's just a damn good goalie. He's so fun to watch.

Cons:
1) He's not getting any younger, and the question mark is when he will start his decline. No sign of it yet though.
2) He can get rattled in high-stress situations. Playoffs especially.
3) Toronto would have to give up some talent to get him.

Luongo would bring Toronto stability in goal which you guys have lacked for some time. You'd still need to shore up your D a bit, but with these tweaks I'd almost guarantee Toronto finally makes the playoffs and might actually cause other teams to sweat a bit. Contend for the cup? Probably not... but I promise you'd see a far more competitive team you can be proud to stand behind.

If Burke wants Toronto to succeed now, Luongo is the best option available. The only question in my mind is what it would take for Toronto to get him. Vancouver is not in the best bargaining position now that we've signed Schneider, and other GM's know this. There is also a limited amount of teams that require a #1 goalie. They know this too. Also, looking over the Toronto roster I really don't see a ton of players Vancouver would want or need... except maybe Bozak - but only because Kesler's return is unknown. Colborne could be a good player in 2-3 years but isn't what Vancouver needs right now. If Burke would be willing to let both go, I could live with that as a Vancouver fan.

 

[The Blue Devil]

You think the Leafs are comfortable going with two inexperienced goalies..well I guess as the saying goes. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. How many more years will we go without a legit goalie..We haven't made the damn playoffs for 8 years. it's getting ridiculous how cheap we've gotten in net.

I don't care about the next great European goalie (Gustavsson), or the next up and coming guy ( Scrivens, Reimer, Toskala etc.), I want a legit #1 goalie so we can have a team comfortable playing in the third period and not blowing games left right and center.

I think the Leafs only lost 4(might be more) times when leading after 2 last year. One of their biggest problems last year was getting scored on in the first few minutes of the game.

 

[Ruski]

A lot of people against the trade don't like the contract, wait for something better.

I'm trying to figure out what that better option is. FA's don't sign with losing teams. FA Goalies are rare, Bryzgalov is the last big name to hit the market, and he got a more ridiculous contract than Luongo. (Even under the new system it would still be outrageous).

The time is now to acquire a goalie. Luongo gives us stability for the next 5 years at least, in that time we can groom a young goaltender or two who can succeed him... while also making the playoffs and attracting better talent because we are a winning team.

With this deal you're likely not even sacrificing significant future talent to acquire him... its future cap space.

Assuming we are not trading away top line talent for him, i completely agree and hope Burke pulls the trigger.

The other intangible that Luongo brings is that over those next 4-5 years, the young guys will get to experience "winning" instead of "loosing". It is hard to believe that the Leafs would win more game without him in the short term. That winning attitude and feeling of some success is something that our team hasn't seen since the last lockout. Hard to measure that contribution in terms of cap space but to me its a risk we need to take.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

LOL Oh my god people, his cap hit is 5.35M. MUCH LOWER than the $7-8M contracts being handed out to stars today. Remember 40 year old Ed Belfour in Toronto? He was great.

Give me Luongo please, Burke.

Yeah because he was given a 12 year contract, that's why. Since he's signed until he's 43, he better have a cheap cap hit.

Remember 40 year-old CUJO in Toronto?

 

[HockeyOrDie]

I posted this in the Luongo thread on the rumours page as well...

More fuel for the fire...

Hockey Or Die! ‏@HockeyOrDie
Ben Kuzma on Team1260: Q: If #Luongo is traded, where does he end up? A: "Toronto, Toronto or Toronto" #NHL

 

[67Cup]

A number of points... I'm really, really tired of Canuck fans visiting, whether "in peace" or not, to tell us how great Luongo is, that his contract is reasonable and that he will turn around the Leafs. I live in Vancouver and I see him regularly. He would clearly be a big improvement on what the Leafs have now but there are already signs the decline may have begun. He is now an above average, rather than an elite goalie, IMO. And anyone who thinks the contract is not a problem is inhaling too much BC Bud. But it is possible that acquiring him might be good idea, provided, of course, that the price is right. No mortgaging the future for a depreciating asset!

I want to see the details of the new CBA, but if it is true that teams can amnesty a contract, if they wish, after this season or next, much of the sting is taken out of the contract. Two seasons with the Leafs should buy time for younger goalies to develop and tell us how he will play behind something other than a President's Trophy winning team. The Leafs have the cap space for the next two years, and if they can shed the contract after that point, the spectre of carrying the big cap numbers long after his effectiveness has disappeared, is no longer something to worry about. They just would have to be hardheaded two seasons from now.

The best thing for the Leafs future would probably be another top five draft position, especially in what is heralded as an excellent draft year, like 2003. But Burke has consistently tried to make the playoffs. I can't see him changing course in a final year of his present contract. He both wants to make the playoffs and likely needs to do so to keep his job. An upgrade in goal would be the best way to reach that plateau.

There is no guarantee that Luongo would backstop the Leafs to a playoff position. An injury or even a season like 2009-2010 when Luongo verged on mediocre much of the time, could always happen. (Heck, the injury business is true of any goalie in the league.) But the Leafs goaltending has been so poor, except for a brief stretch by Reimer as a rookie, that it is a worthwhile gamble for the team, IMO.

There might also be some potential trading matches between the two teams. I never thought Kaberle to Vancouver ever was a good match of needs but this trade might be. The lead story in the sports section of the Vancouver Sun today identified the needs of the Canucks as a third line centre, a depth defenseman and veteran backup. The Leafs could supply the first two.

No, don't trade Gardner. Don't deal the first round draft choice but see if a deal can be struck for a more reasonable price, assuming Luongo is willing to come to Toronto. If either of those assets is the price, say "No thanks," and walk away.

 

[Anthrax442]

I think the key for anyone, who is looking at Luongo, is not to overplay him. If they continue to have him play 65 + games a season, he won't last another 3 years.

 

[rdawg1234]

I actually wont get excited for this season until luongo.

Looking at reimer and scrivens seasons in more detail, Neither have huge potential, Luongo has elite skill on a good day, which can happen alot when he gets going.

He's a mixed bag in the playoffs, but he hasnt really faced the east minus Boston(where he got a couple shutouts) so we dont have to worry about chicago in the playoffs.

 

[rdawg1234]

I think the key for anyone, who is looking at Luongo, is not to overplay him. If they continue to have him play 65 + games a season, he won't last another 3 years.

I'm fine with him being 55-60 games a year. 20-25 for reimer/scrivens is a good amount.

I still think he'll be great for about 3 more years, beyond that we'll see.

But seriously 3 years of goaltending stability is huge. It's been along time. The best we've had is James Reimer, who will look like a joke once you see Luongo playing on this team alot.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Luongo is a great regular season goalie who in the last 2 playoffs has looked average and mentally weak. When he chirped Thomas coming out of the net in the Stanley Cup playoffs he completely took a nose dive after that and has been pulled in the playoffs in back to back years.

 

[mrsauve]

Vancouver fan coming in peace.

Honestly, Luongo would be the best thing that happened to Toronto in a long time. I've watched the guy for years and while I will admit sometimes we've been left scratching our head over how he's been unable to step his game up in the playoffs, he has been the best goalie we've ever had and has brought Vancouver a long way since his arrival.

Here are the facts:

Pros:
1) His contract is long, but it is very reasonable for a goalie of his calibre. Try getting any other goalie with his stats for just over 5m. Good luck.
2) He is very competitive, and pushes his teammates to be so.
3) He's just a damn good goalie. He's so fun to watch.

Cons:
1) He's not getting any younger, and the question mark is when he will start his decline. No sign of it yet though.
2) He can get rattled in high-stress situations. Playoffs especially.
3) Toronto would have to give up some talent to get him.

Luongo would bring Toronto stability in goal which you guys have lacked for some time. You'd still need to shore up your D a bit, but with these tweaks I'd almost guarantee Toronto finally makes the playoffs and might actually cause other teams to sweat a bit. Contend for the cup? Probably not... but I promise you'd see a far more competitive team you can be proud to stand behind.

If Burke wants Toronto to succeed now, Luongo is the best option available. The only question in my mind is what it would take for Toronto to get him. Vancouver is not in the best bargaining position now that we've signed Schneider, and other GM's know this. There is also a limited amount of teams that require a #1 goalie. They know this too. Also, looking over the Toronto roster I really don't see a ton of players Vancouver would want or need... except maybe Bozak - but only because Kesler's return is unknown. Colborne could be a good player in 2-3 years but isn't what Vancouver needs right now. If Burke would be willing to let both go, I could live with that as a Vancouver fan.

Gladly

...As a leafs fan

 

[Anthrax442]

I think Luongo for more than Bozak is a severe overpayment. His contract is too heavy. Unless Vancouver will eat another million or more of his cap hit.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Not my money, pull the trigger!


I remember those teams in the early 00's winning games they had no business of winning because they had elite goaltending.


I don't know if Luongo is in the same bracket, but close enough. And all its going to cost "us" is tyler bozak +?

I say no brainer.

Bring on the Lu, let him be a mentor to Reims and you have a great tandem for the rest of this decade.