Player Discussion Tim Stützle - (C) - Part VI

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

I read the article…what accountability is Ian talking about exactly? All the other stuff still doesn’t address that one snippet or disprove it

It's a weird tweet.

1. Mendes wrote an article and included a quote that was misinterpreted by some (it happens, it's not maliciousness).
2. Another reporter asked Stützle to clarify the meaning of the quote during a media scrum
3. Stützle clarified what he meant
4. Mendes gets mad at how people consume media...?

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

but honestly how quickly the fans have turned on a player who they also say hasn’t played for real coach or manager his entire career is laughable

Quickly? It's Stützle's 4th season, and Tkachuk's 6th, and this is the first time they're getting even a hint of criticism.

They've been given every benefit of the doubt for years now.

Dorion sucked. DJ sucked. But these players also haven't proven anything.

I remember the heat guys like Phillips, Redden and Spezza got early in their careers. This isn't close to that.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Sigh you guys just keep going in circles…we’re not turning on the guy, it is his idiotic statements that are warranting discussion and his pouting attitude is on full display. Fans and analysts are absolutely right to call him out on his BS but it doesn’t mean we’re wanting him traded. Geez holy shit

I’ll trade him. I’ll trade anyone!!!

Quickly? It's Stützle's 4th season, and Tkachuk's 6th, and this is the first time they're getting even a hint of criticism.

They've been given every benefit of the doubt for years now.

Dorion sucked. DJ sucked. But these players also haven't proven anything.

I remember the heat guys like Phillips, Redden and Spezza got early in their careers. This isn't close to that.

Those were men. These are new age children.

 

[Relapsing]

I’ll trade him. I’ll trade anyone!!!

I'll trade anyone to get this team into the playoffs consistently again.

Time to think like new management: No ties to the players, just the logo and the team. Do whatever it takes to win from here on out. Be smart but honest in your evaluations. Be ruthless in making changes.

Hell, I'll even trade you!

 

[Do Make Say Think]

It's a weird tweet.

1. Mendes wrote an article and included a quote that was misinterpreted by some (it happens, it's not maliciousness).
2. Another reporter asked Stützle to clarify the meaning of the quote during a media scrum
3. Stützle clarified what he meant
4. Mendes gets mad at how people consume media...?

I think he's just annoyed that people don't read articles, they read headlines. He feels his article clarifies the quotes that caused a bit of ruckus.

I get it, but that's the name of the game he's in.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

I think he's just annoyed that people don't read articles, they read headlines. He feels his article clarifies the quotes that caused a bit of ruckus.

I get it, but that's the name of the game he's in.

The thing is, nothing in the rest of the article adds context or clarifies the specific quote that everyone is talking about.

There's a ton of good things in it, and when you read the whole piece, there's no reason to think Stützle hates Martin or is shirking responsibility for where the team is at. But it doesn't clarify that one quote.

When you read the quote, it can easily be taken as either:

1. One of the main reasons he, and the other core players, signed to stay here was because they wanted to keep playing for DJ
2. DJ helped him develop into the player that's worthy of the contract he got

Until Stützle clarified this afternoon, either interpretation would have made sense. Is Mendes mad that another reporter asked for the clarification?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

At least TSN 1200 gave us something to fight about today.

#VictimsofMendes

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

#VictimsofMendes

Must be one of those an anti-fans in 323.

 

[Micklebot]

I read the article…what accountability is Ian talking about exactly? All the other stuff still doesn’t address that one snippet or disprove it

Stü specifically discussed how DJ getting fired is on the players and how they played, and they as a group are accountable for him getting fired, that's likely the accountability Mendes is talking about, the snippet withing the full context is him discussing how he felt DJ did a lot to help the players become the players they are to today, and you can infer he felt they owed him better than the level play they gave him.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Stü specifically discussed how DJ getting fired is on the players and how they played, and they as a group are accountable for him getting fired, that's likely the accountability Mendes is talking about, the snippet withing the full context is him discussing how he felt DJ did a lot to help the players become the players they are to today, and you can infer he felt they owed him better than the level play they gave him.

I don't think that's what he's talking about. The quote in question is:

"I'm really a thankful and loyal person. And a lot of guys wouldn't be here without him. A lot of our guys wouldn't have signed those contracts without him."

Some took this to mean that the players signed here because they wanted to keep playing for DJ. That the coach was a main reason why they stayed. It'd be easy to see how someone could interpret it that way.

The social media narrative then went down the wormhole of... "well if DJ is no longer here... does this core still want to be here?"

A reporter asked Stützle to clarify this during the scrum, and he said that what he meant was that DJ helped make them the type of players who were worthy of such contracts. Not that they signed them because they thought they'd always play for him.

The rest of Mendes' article does go on to detail how the players blame themselves, take accountability, respect Martin, etc. But it doesn't add context to that one quote which was misinterpreted.

The fans freaked out for no reason, but Mendes put out an ambiguous quote from a guy who speaks English as a second language. All he had to do was retweet the clarification from Stützle, not finger-wag the fanbase.

 

[Micklebot]

I don't think that's what he's talking about. The quote in question is:



Some took this to mean that the players signed here because they wanted to keep playing for DJ. That the coach was a main reason why they stayed. It'd be easy to see how someone could interpret it that way.

The social media narrative then went down the wormhole of... "well if DJ is no longer here... does this core still want to be here?"

A reporter asked Stützle to clarify this during the scrum, and he said that what he meant was that DJ helped make them the type of players who were worthy of such contracts. Not that they signed them because they thought they'd always play for him.

The rest of Mendes' article does go on to detail how the players blame themselves, take accountability, respect Martin, etc. But it doesn't add context to that one quote which was misinterpreted.

The fans freaked out for no reason, but Mendes put out an ambiguous quote from a guy who speaks English as a second language. All he had to do was retweet the clarification from Stützle, not finger-wag the fanbase.

Well the whole quote was

“It was tough with the coaching change. I loved playing for him,” Stützle said. “He meant a lot. I’m a really thankful person and a loyal person. And a lot of the guys wouldn’t be here without him. And a lot of our guys wouldn’t have signed those contracts without him.

Followed by

“It was totally on the group in here and the way we played. I don’t think it’s ever on the coaching staff,” said Stützle. “And we take full accountability for that.”

Within the context, he's expressed his thanks for what DJ did for him and the team, then took ownership of why the coach was fired.the problem comes when you separate the quotes from the context.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

View attachment 795971

When a player says, "It's on us, not the coach, we didn't play well enough," I've always wanted a reporter to just ask "At some point in the last 3 months, why didn't you just start playing better?"

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Well the whole quote was

“It was tough with the coaching change. I loved playing for him,” Stützle said. “He meant a lot. I’m a really thankful person and a loyal person. And a lot of the guys wouldn’t be here without him. And a lot of our guys wouldn’t have signed those contracts without him.

Followed by

“It was totally on the group in here and the way we played. I don’t think it’s ever on the coaching staff,” said Stützle. “And we take full accountability for that.”

Within the context, he's expressed his thanks for what DJ did for him and the team, then took ownership of why the coach was fired.the problem comes when you separate the quotes from the context.

The two quotes jump topics. The second quote doesn't add context to the first quote. Even with it present, the whole could still be interpreted as:

"DJ was why the core signed to stay here. But, we let him down and it's our fault he got fired. We take accountability for it."

The 2nd quote doesn't clarify whether Stützle is saying that the core signed contracts to keep playing for DJ, or whether DJ developed them into players who warranted such contracts.

That's why Stützle had to clarify that it was the latter, during the scrum today.

If Mendes had left out, "And a lot of our guys wouldn’t have signed those contracts without him.", the intended meaning would have been clearer. It would have simply come off as Tim expressing thanks to DJ. (His editor should have caught that).

TSN1200 then tweeting the paraphrased snippet of what Stützle said Giroux told him about the new system, with zero context, made Mendes' tweet about "media literacy" funny, as well. "I can't believe fans are sharing a quote without context, as my media colleagues share a quote without context!"

With that said, I think the core reason for why the fanbase is questioning these comments coming from players is because of how shocked they seem to be by DJ's firing, and how glowingly they keep talking about their experience playing for him.

"All you did was lose. Why did you enjoy that so much? It wasn't great for us, the people buying tickets."

 

[LiseL]

Reactions to the quote similar to what we see here.
Its not clear if he meant (A) that they wouldn't have signed if it wasn't for DJ or (B) that DJ helped them get those contracts. It certainly seems like A when he says a lot of guys wouldn't have signed those contracts. I actually was leaning (B) but re-reading the quote it seems like (A)

A lot of the guys wouldn't have signed. Not he helped me earn my contract.. or helped me and others earn it... We wouldn't have signed ...

Almost seems like its been a subject of discussion

If they only want to play for a coach like DJ who was too much of a player's coach (no accountability, probably waited too long to coach the 200 ft game), they are in for a rude awakening in this league. I can't think of another HC that would coddle the players as much as DJ did, certainly on any contending team. Keefe might be a similar type coach, but even he has called out his team on occasion.

If his comments are true, that many of the core feel the way he does, then management might have to make many roster changes than we expect if they don't grow up and accept that every NHL team is going to want them to play the right way.

 

[LiseL]

The road back could be longer than anybody thought

That wasn't what Ryan was referring to. I can't remember if that episode of Coming in Hot showed it or not but I remember seeing it. Alfie is talking to him and Stu is just staring ahead not acknowledging anything he's saying. Also doesn't look too happy. If it wasn't shown on the podcast, someone may have posted it in the GDT thread of the Vancouver game.

Anybody have the clip of Alfie talking to Stu on the bench and Stu just staring off into space? Bobby Ryan mentioned

I think I saw it in one of the threads in this forum: either the GDT of the Vancouver game or the Martin/Alfie named as coaches thread.

 

[LiseL]

I don’t get why people are worked up about the emotional response to their first coaching change.

Hossa was in tears after being traded for the first time. So was Gretzky.

I doubt that happened ever again.

And I don’t think it’s because they weren’t professionals and not committed hockey players.

Those dramatic changes are always the most impactful the first time they happen.

I don't know if Hossa trade or any trade is comparable to a coaching change. Changing teams vs changing coaches is a much bigger change. New city, new teammates, new coaches, etc. Also, during arbitration, Muckler signed him to a long-term deal and promptly traded him to Atlanta without letting him know beforehand. I remember Chara was so pissed because it was so sneaky, he didn't sign here and went to Boston. I remember it well. Hossa was my favorite player (along with Alfie). I never forgave Muckler for making that move. Especially because so many players don't want to play in a small Cdn market but Hossa loved it here. Sorry for going on a tangent. This is one of the moves made that still makes my blood boil.

 

[LiseL]

I don't get it either. It's not like Stutz called a news conference to profess his love for DJ. He was likely asked something like ".. so DJ, is gone, what up?" and he said basically what all players say - really liked him and it's on us.

It's going to be like this for a while. Every little thing said will have incantations said over it while we chuck the chicken bones to see what it all means.

It's like that random clip with Alfie from above. Alfie is talking, Tim is standing watching the play and when Alfie is done he possible gives him a tap on the ass or tries to steal his wallet and Tim nods his head in acknowledgement of the message.

The clip posted above wasn't the moment Bobby Ryan was referring to. During Van game, Alfie is behind Stu talking to him and he is staring into space with a grim look on his face. Didn't even acknowledge Alfie was talking to him (nodding, turning around, etc.). Hard to not think he was tuning him out.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

The clip posted above wasn't the moment Bobby Ryan was referring to. During Van game, Alfie is behind Stu talking to him and he is staring into space with a grim look on his face. Didn't even acknowledge Alfie was talking to him (nodding, turning around, etc.). Hard to not think he was tuning him out.

This is it, I think. You can't tell whether Stutzle is looking at Alfie or not.

 

[LiseL]

They're going to get over it eventually. Obviously this is not ideal and its not a good look but the big picture will hit them directly in the face. No one will want players that have never won anything and shit the bed when a coach gets changed. Its a tough look so far for Stutzle and Tkachuk. Anyone that thought this change was going to happen over night with how inconsistent this team has played over the last few years wasnt really paying very close attention. Everyone wants immediate gratification but this league is too good to just flip a switch. Its going to come.

Batherson is embracing the change and is thriving, theres an example right on his line.

Drake and Norris both commented on the teaching being done during their post-game comments so I think they're both embracing it. Crickets from Timmy and Brady but lots of pouting.

 

[LiseL]

I am glad Martin is here to instill some level of discipline and structure into these guys on and off the ice

People keep saying DJ is a good rebuilding team coach. The more I see the less I agree with that. Some of this stuff should have been taught from the start. Since it was not we are going through the process now

Makes me wonder if we have some of the same issues in Belleville. I remember DJ saying that Belleville used the same system as the Sens.

 

[Micklebot]

The two quotes jump topics. The second quote doesn't add context to the first quote. Even with it present, the whole could still be interpreted as:

"DJ was why the core signed to stay here. But, we let him down and it's our fault he got fired. We take accountability for it."

The 2nd quote doesn't clarify whether Stützle is saying that the core signed contracts to keep playing for DJ, or whether DJ developed them into players who warranted such contracts.

That's why Stützle had to clarify that it was the latter, during the scrum today.

If Mendes had left out, "And a lot of our guys wouldn’t have signed those contracts without him.", the intended meaning would have been clearer. It would have simply come off as Tim expressing thanks to DJ. (His editor should have caught that).

TSN1200 then tweeting the paraphrased snippet of what Stützle said Giroux told him about the new system, with zero context, made Mendes' tweet about "media literacy" funny, as well. "I can't believe fans are sharing a quote without context, as my media colleagues share a quote without context!"

With that said, I think the core reason for why the fanbase is questioning these comments coming from players is because of how shocked they seem to be by DJ's firing, and how glowingly they keep talking about their experience playing for him.

"All you did was lose. Why did you enjoy that so much? It wasn't great for us, the people buying tickets."

It's not jumping topics, he's talking about the impact the firing had on him, the impact DJ had on the players development, and how they in the room take accountability for the firing,

Yes, his specific comment can be framed as they all signed their contracts to specifically play for DJ, but most players realize coaches have a shelf life, and that shelf life typically isn't 8 years, a person less inclined to view his comment through a pessimistic lense though will recognize his comments as a whole are just framing what DJ did for them. Without the context though it's much harder to come to the more positive interpretation, which is what Mendes was complaining about.

The article came out at a bad time, fans are primed to view things pessimistically with the team losing, pulling that line out of context made it far more difficult to come to a more charitable interpretation, and first impressions last, so am out of context tweet sways how everyone ends up framing it.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

It's not jumping topics, he's talking about the impact the firing had on him, the impact DJ had on the players development, and how they in the room take accountability for the firing,

Yes, his specific comment can be framed as they all signed their contracts to specifically play for DJ, but most players realize coaches have a shelf life, and that shelf life typically isn't 8 years, a person less inclined to view his comment through a pessimistic lense though will recognize his comments as a whole are just framing what DJ did for them. Without the context though it's much harder to come to the more positive interpretation, which is what Mendes was complaining about.

The article came out at a bad time, fans are primed to view things pessimistically with the team losing, pulling that line out of context made it far more difficult to come to a more charitable interpretation, and first impressions last, so am out of context tweet sways how everyone ends up framing it.

I don't disagree that if you read the piece as a whole, you walk away with a different impression than if you read that specific quote by itself.

He still should have removed or clarified the "a lot of our guys wouldn’t have signed those contracts without him" portion though, since that's part that could be taken to have two meanings, even in the context of the entire article.

With that said the timing of his tweet about the "fans" being media illiterate because they shared the quote without the context of the entire article, right after TSN1200 posted the tweet below, also without context, was pretty funny.



That quote, taken in the context of the ~5 minute scrum, sounds very different than it does standing alone.

Maybe he didn't see it and it was bad timing. But in the feed, it looked like he was finger-wagging the fan for taking quotes out of context, but not his media colleagues.

 

[LiseL]

Well the actions from stutzle have been poor.

But why does giroux need to tell Stutzle “it doesn’t matter if you don’t like the system”. Is stutzle going around bitching? It just reeks to me. And his attitude on the bench and on the ice doesn’t reflect anything better than that quote.


It was likely giroux sitting them both down

(Don’t have a source that is speculation for anyone wondering)

Something else about Giroux. In his post-game interview after Vancouver, he was asked if this loss would motivate them to come out stronger in the next game, His reply: "Maybe". His earlier responses also alluded to having to play 60 minutes. It sounds like G is frustrated IMO.

 

[Micklebot]

I don't disagree that if you read the piece as a whole, you walk away with a different impression than if you read that specific quote by itself.

He still should have removed or clarified the "a lot of our guys wouldn’t have signed those contracts without him" portion though, since that's part that could be taken to have two meanings, even in the context of the entire article.

With that said the timing of his tweet about the "fans" being media illiterate because they shared the quote without the context of the entire article, right after TSN1200 posted the tweet below, also without context, was pretty funny.



That quote, taken in the context of the ~5 minute scrum, sounds very different than it does standing alone.

Maybe he didn't see it and it was bad timing. But in the feed, it looked like he was finger-wagging the fan for taking quotes out of context, but not his media colleagues.

He wasn't calling fans media illiterate for misinterpreting the quote having only seen the tweet, he was critical of those that pull the quote out of context to start that shitshow.

I don't like what TSN1200 did with the quote about Giroux talking to Stu either, in the context of the scrum, the impression is very different, clearly TSN1200 heard the whole scrum and should have known pulling it out of context would give people a misleading impression, that's what Mendes is critical of, not the people who were misled.