The Rise And Fall Of Mike Sullivan...

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

That team won't succeed until they replace Dubas with someone who understands the sport. They'd get better results giving Sullivan the GM job as well instead of having letting someone who is completely unqualified to work in hockey ops run the team. What's worse is that Dubas can't be trusted to hire a replacement either.

Can someone give me a TLDR on what the situation with Dubas is now?

5-8 years ago I remember him being touted as this highly regarded FO prospect just getting started, in a league where being a Burke-esque dinosaur really wasnt going to work anymore, he was the opposite. I recall the first few years after he took over from Lamiorello the leafs were built as fast and light as possible with debatable results.

Everybodys drunk uncle at thanksgiving hated him and called him lenscrafters dubas, but I always figured they just didnt like new-age NHL guys.

What happened?

 

[dalewood12]

Can someone give me a TLDR on what the situation with Dubas is now?

5-8 years ago I remember him being touted as this highly regarded FO prospect just getting started, in a league where being a Burke-esque dinosaur really wasnt going to work anymore, he was the opposite. I recall the first few years after he took over from Lamiorello the leafs were built as fast and light as possible with debatable results.

Everybodys drunk uncle at thanksgiving hated him and called him lenscrafters dubas, but I always figured they just didnt like new-age NHL guys.

What happened?

I think there's a sense that he signs big shiny stars that the team doesn't need, like EK or Tavares.

 

[Matty Sundin]

Their roster isn’t good and his coaching can’t mask their issue, which really isn’t his fault still. Maybe a different coach with different style could help mask their issues and have they squeak into the playoffs that’s probably all they could do.

 

[Oleksiak]

Can someone give me a TLDR on what the situation with Dubas is now?

5-8 years ago I remember him being touted as this highly regarded FO prospect just getting started, in a league where being a Burke-esque dinosaur really wasnt going to work anymore, he was the opposite. I recall the first few years after he took over from Lamiorello the leafs were built as fast and light as possible with debatable results.

Everybodys drunk uncle at thanksgiving hated him and called him lenscrafters dubas, but I always figured they just didnt like new-age NHL guys.

What happened?

His lack of hockey knowledge led to overpaying a lot of guys who didn't really care about winning and a blueline that had no one who could actually play defence.

 

[3074326]

His lack of hockey knowledge led to overpaying a lot of guys who didn't really care about winning and a blueline that had no one who could actually play defence.

The team was already a shitshow. I don't care if you don't like Dubas, but the real enemy is Ron Hextall.

 

[ijuka]

It is amazing how Sullivan can still gain so much benefit of the doubt for something he did 7 years ago.

 

[BHD]

He can still be an effective coach with a different team.

 

[Ignatius]

So weird that he was an amazing coach when the team was stacked and turned into a terrible coach when they got older and lost talent.

I have read your posts in the thread and I acknowledge what you have said as being accurate and true. The problems I would identify are more systemic in terms of how the organization is run. Many of the same issues that we have with Sullivan we had with Bylsma.

For some reason the Penguins org just don't want to play and develop most of their younger talent in favor of going out of their way to give vets every opportunity. There's no point in even getting younger guys that could help us if we're not going to give them the opportunity to do so.

I think we can all agree that Bylsma was a right time right place coach who had the benefit of operating under a more experienced and successful coach's system that he was able to make the right adjustments in which resulted in a Cup win, after that though he was exposed when he implemented his own system.

Sullivan is a great coach, however, he is like a Master Chef that needs all the right ingredients or else his product won't live up to his reputation. The organization hasn't been giving him the right ingredients on one hand and what he does have to work with is getting more and more stale, though in the case with Crosby and Malkin they are aging like fine wine in many ways.

I would say get rid of Sullivan only in favor of someone who could better work with what we have and what we know we're likely going to utilize and sit back and try to eat Clark Griswold's Christmas vacation turkey.

 

[BallardEra]

6-2 loss to the Jackets.

Mike Sullivan is not affected.

 

[Goose]

He'll go down as one of the better coaches in the modern era, Cooper is the only other active coach with two cups.

It's really, really, really, really hard to win multiple cups, plus his winning % remains strong.

He'd really have to fail miserably for a decade to hurt his legacy. He can take a few subpar years and bounce back with a strong team.

He also doesn't need to win another cup.

 

[capfit9]

It is amazing how Sullivan can still gain so much benefit of the doubt for something he did 7 years ago.

It’s amazing how manager Doobass can get so much benefit of the doubt for doing absolutely nothing despite inheriting elite level players.

 

[PaulD]

People named Mike in Pittsburgh don't get fired for being inept coaches who no longer win in the playoffs, if they can even get there.

Hell. I'd argue Sullivan deserves a little more grace since he's won a championship more recently than Tomlin has even won a playoff game...

But this is the new normal: the comfort of consistent mediocrity.

And toxic positivity.

Can someone give me a TLDR on what the situation with Dubas is now?

5-8 years ago I remember him being touted as this highly regarded FO prospect just getting started, in a league where being a Burke-esque dinosaur really wasnt going to work anymore, he was the opposite. I recall the first few years after he took over from Lamiorello the leafs were built as fast and light as possible with debatable results.

Everybodys drunk uncle at thanksgiving hated him and called him lenscrafters dubas, but I always figured they just didnt like new-age NHL guys.

What happened?

Play station GM.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Dubas took a bubble team and turned them into this. Not even like the stars have fallen off either. Unreal

 

[Empoleon8771]

It’s amazing how manager Doobass can get so much benefit of the doubt for doing absolutely nothing despite inheriting elite level players.

Imagine thinking that shitting on Dubas somehow excuses Sullivan.

Very few Penguins fans would argue against the thought that Dubas has done a terrible job as the Penguins GM. That doesn't change that Sullivan has been an awful coach for the Penguins for pretty much 5 years now. Any normal team would have fired him sometime in the 2020-2022 timeframe, yet it's about to be 2025 and we're still watching him.

Bylsma won a cup in 2009 and had playoff failure after failure after that. Despite that, he won a playoff series in 2010, 2 playoff series in 2013 and a playoff series in 2014 before he was fired after 2014. Sullivan hasn't won a playoff series since 2018 and they're now about to be 3 years missing the playoffs, yet there is literally zero question about Sullivan's job security.

Or if you want another example, Quenneville won 3 cups for the Hawks from 2010-2015. They then lost in the 1st round in 2016 and 2017, missed the playoffs in 2018 and was fired early in 2018-2019. Quenneville had more success yet still didn't last 5 playoff losses and 3 missed playoffs after his last cup.

 

[jani]

DELETE

 

[SteelCityCannon]

The team was already a shitshow. I don't care if you don't like Dubas, but the real enemy is Ron Hextall.

Dubas came in and immediately signed turd ass Jarry to a 5 year boat anchor and traded for Karlsson. Hextall sucked too but come on now. Dubas has done absolutely nothing in the NHL I still dont understand the hype.

 

[PaulD]

Imagine thinking that shitting on Dubas somehow excuses Sullivan.

Very few Penguins fans would argue against the thought that Dubas has done a terrible job as the Penguins GM. That doesn't change that Sullivan has been an awful coach for the Penguins for pretty much 5 years now. Any normal team would have fired him sometime in the 2020-2022 timeframe, yet it's about to be 2025 and we're still watching him.

Bylsma won a cup in 2009 and had playoff failure after failure after that. Despite that, he won a playoff series in 2010, 2 playoff series in 2013 and a playoff series in 2014 before he was fired after 2014. Sullivan hasn't won a playoff series since 2018 and they're now about to be 3 years missing the playoffs, yet there is literally zero question about Sullivan's job security.

Or if you want another example, Quenneville won 3 cups for the Hawks from 2010-2015. They then lost in the 1st round in 2016 and 2017, missed the playoffs in 2017 and was fired early in 2018. Quenneville had more success yet still didn't last 5 playoff losses and 3 missed playoffs after his last cup.

Bingo.
Sullivan and his fans throw everyone under the bus , GMs, assistant coaches, goalies, players aging, the 5 new forwards Sullivan gets every summer, ......everyone gets held accountable except Sullivan the genius. The coach hasn't won a round since 2018. When Sid and the boys were only 31.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Fun fact: there are only 4 NHL coaches who have been the head coach of their team since 2018, which was when the Sullivan led Penguins won their last playoff series. Those coaches are Sullivan (0 series wins), Cooper (2 cups and 11 series wins), Bednar (1 cup and 8 series wins) and Brind'Amour (7 series wins).

But yes, please tell us how Kyle Dubas is the issue the Penguins. Despite the fact that the Penguins have had 3 different GMs but only 1 coach since the last time the Penguins won a playoff series.

 

[SteelCityCannon]

But yes, please tell us how Kyle Dubas is the issue the Penguins.

Sure!

Erik Karlsson

Tristan Jarry

There's more, but that should cover it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sure!

Erik Karlsson

Tristan Jarry

There's more, but that should cover it.

Even had Dubas not made either of those moves (which were objectively bad), the Penguins would still suck today.

The only benefit of reversing those moves was that it wouldn't have cost the Penguins their 1st in 2024 and they would have been able to draft someone instead. They'd still have a crap roster because that Karlsson trade was cap dumps and a 1st for Karlsson. I wish they could reverse that deal to have that extra 1st to improve their prospect pool, but the roster would not be better by reversing that deal.

Had those moves not happened, the Penguins would instead have Petry, Rutta, Granlund and whatever goalie they replaced Jarry with instead of Karlsson and Jarry. That's not an improvement to the NHL team, the only benefit there is that they wouldn't have traded that 1st for Karlsson.

 

[SteelCityCannon]

Even had Dubas not made either of those moves (which were objectively bad), the Penguins would still suck today.

The only benefit of reversing those moves was that it wouldn't have cost the Penguins their 1st in 2024 and they would have been able to draft someone instead. They'd still have a crap roster because that Karlsson trade was cap dumps and a 1st for Karlsson.

Had those moves not happened, the Penguins would instead have Petry, Rutta, Granlund and whatever goalie they replaced Jarry with instead of Karlsson and Jarry. That's not an improvement to the NHL team, the only benefit there is that they wouldn't have traded that 1st for Karlsson.

Maybe he can also keep that Guentzel guy too.

I just dont understand what he's done to give him any sort of benefit of the doubt here. Unless youre banking on him replicating his success from Toronto /s

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe he can also keep that Guentzel guy too.

I just dont understand what he's done to give him any sort of benefit of the doubt here. Unless youre banking on him replicating his success from Toronto /s

The Penguins were completely right with trading Guentzel, because their window had firmly closed and it was way overdue for them to start a rebuild.

This isn't even defending the job Dubas has done, he has done a bad job. But trying to argue that he is the primary reason the team sucks is just a dead giveaway that you haven't given even a shred of attention to the Penguins situation.

The mistake Dubas made was not immediately starting the rebuild when he took the job in 2023, becuase the Penguins were spent because of the management JR and Hextall had before them. Dubas decided to try to buy in and make the team better, which backfired horribly and cost them a 1st they desperately needed. But even had Dubas not made that decision, this team would still suck today because of the decisions the 2 GMs before him made along with a coach that is 5 years past his expiration date.

 

[SteelCityCannon]

The Penguins were completely right with trading Guentzel, because their window had firmly closed and it was way overdue for them to start a rebuild.

This isn't even defending the job Dubas has done, he has done a bad job. But trying to argue that he is the primary reason the team sucks is just a dead giveaway that you haven't given even a shred of attention to the Penguins situation.

The mistake Dubas made was not immediately starting the rebuild when he took the job in 2023, becuase the Penguins were spent because of the management JR and Hextall had before them. Dubas decided to try to buy in and make the team better, which backfired horribly and cost them a 1st they desperately needed. But even had Dubas not made that decision, this team would still suck today because of the decisions the 2 GMs before him made along with a coach that is 5 years past his expiration date.

How are they right to trade Guentzel and continue to hang onto the old guard including the coach?

You cant say the primary reason is anybody when it's an overall mess. But coming into a team that is DESPERATELY in need of a rebuild and arguably acquiring the worst contract in the league and signing the second worst contract in the league is just a total disaster. There's no glossing over that. Also, you still didnt answer my question. Why do we think Dubas is any good in the first place?

 

[Empoleon8771]

How are they right to trade Guentzel and continue to hang onto the old guard including the coach?

You cant say the primary reason is anybody when it's an overall mess. But coming into a team that is DESPERATELY in need of a rebuild and arguably acquiring the worst contract in the league and signing the second worst contract in the league is just a total disaster. There's no glossing over that. Also, you still didnt answer my question. Why do we think Dubas is any good in the first place?

The old guard can't be traded due to their NMCs. I completely agree with you about them holding onto the coach, but that's all of an ownership/GM/players issue. Everyone seems to think Sullivan is this amazing coach and refuses to even entertain the idea of moving on from him.