The Rise And Fall Of Mike Sullivan...

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,581
10,272
All great coaches invariably fall into the same traps by virtue of being human. Any one or many may apply to Sullivan, I haven't watched the Penguins closely enough to know which:

1) Reading their own press and beginning to believe that their genius, and not the talent on the ice, is responsible for the team's success. This manifests in many ways. One of the most common ways is prioritizing their precious system over the realities actual talent. When coaches are at their peak, they're seen adjusting how the team plays to the strengths and weaknesses of the players they have, to injuries, to opponents. As coaches begin believing their own hype, they determine that their system is the secret, and it is the front office's job to find players to fit the system. When the front office fails to fill the roster top to bottom with players that can play the coaches system and his roles perfectly, square pegs are mashed into round holes and the players are blamed. Players that fill their role well are overvalued relative to the measurable on-ice impact of the role itself. You see grinders become coaches favorites for succeeding at an easier job, but skilled players are punished for making mistakes or playing outside the bounds of their role depite having greater positive impact on the game overall.

Another way this belief in their own hype frequently manifests is when the coach repeatedly ignores the most obvious option or solution to a problem. If the solution is too obvious, then ANYBODY could come up with it, and the coach doesn't get credit. So the coach must find a less obvious, more clever solution, so that if/when it works, he gets the credit for his creativity or innovation. This typically happens gradually, with a middle phase where the coach tries everything but the obvious for the bulk of the season, and only in the playoffs, sometimes pushing it even as far as being down by several games in a series, does the coach do the obvious thing. In the cases where this eventual switch to the obvious solution takes place and the team manages to win, the local press is often quick to praise the coach's genius, while fans that were paying attention facepalmed over the fact that coach should have been doing the obvious the whole damn time.

2) They grow attached to the players they won with. This is pretty understandable, especially if you consider how much more the coach sees of the players during these playoff runs than we do. The ice bags after the games, the limping to their rooms, riding highs and lows of a deep run together. It's understandable to bond with somebody that went to war for you. Unfortunately, this makes it difficult for coaches to accept when the players that were warriors for them in the past, can no longer carry that load. The coach doesn't want to be the one to tell a guy who put his body through the wringer for years following his instructions that he's cooked. He doesn't want embarrass that war buddy by cutting his ice time, reducing his responsibilities, etc. So they keep rolling out the guys they win with and loosening the standard demanded for certain guys. Which leads into...

3) Biases and favoritism. The meritocracy the coach established earlier on crumbles as players see their peers performance slipping without being held to account. Meanwhile, they themselves are still held to a high standard. Coaches darling makes mistakes shift after shift with no accountability, and then a new player slips up once over the course of a game they were otherwise excellent in and gets benched or scratched as an example. This kills morale and hurts the coaches credibility in the eyes of the increasing number of players he never won with, especially as the years since the coach won stack up. Eventually, the coach 'loses the room' and is fired when enough players make it clear in end of season meetings.
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
22,199
10,819
The Penguins roster is awful. Its much easier to blame the coach then numerous players.
It's both. The penguins are an old, slow team that's still trying to play like they're the fastest team in the league like in 2016. Sullivan is stuck in his ways and unable to adapt. If he gets canned I do think he'll find work quickly. He'd do well with a fast young team.
 

Oleksiak

Registered User
Jun 12, 2019
2,304
3,396
Victoria, BC
I'd argue the issue in Pittsburgh isn't Sullivan's coaching, its the roster made up of retirement home residents and a front office who's grand plan in the offseason is add more old washed up players
That team won't succeed until they replace Dubas with someone who understands the sport. They'd get better results giving Sullivan the GM job as well instead of having letting someone who is completely unqualified to work in hockey ops run the team. What's worse is that Dubas can't be trusted to hire a replacement either.
 
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bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
15,062
7,149
To sum it up, he’s well past his expiration date with the Pens. He’s been told he’s amazing for too long by too many people and he refused to adapt his speed based system to the roster and aging core. The results are a terrible on ice product that requires one or both of Sid and Malkin going into hero mode in order to win.

If he went to a younger team with actual speed, he’d probably do fine. He and the organization are just too stubborn/stupid to see this relationship has run its course.
They adapted to play a more passive style last year and were still average.
 

John Price

Gang Gang
Sep 19, 2008
385,204
30,623
As the fan of a competitor go ahead and keep him. We think he's doing a mighty fine job.

Pens are pretty barren of talent and he has them treading water as a fringe playoff team. Not bad enough to tank but not good enough to win it all. So while he's coaching them to hockey purgatory other teams are actually making coaching changes and going younger to adapt.
 

mikelvl

Registered User
Aug 6, 2009
5,982
2,191
Newton, MA
Shelf life, plain and simple. An aging roster and poorly constructed team doesn't help. They are done listening to him.
 

GAGLine

Registered User
Sep 17, 2007
24,321
21,239
When he was an assistant with the Rangers, a large portion of the fanbase (on HF at least) hated him. Once he was in Pittsburgh and winning, they all wanted him back as the HC.

Everyone in Pittsburgh thought he was great when the Pens were winning, now he sucks and can't be fired fast enough.

The reality is that the coach is still the same guy. If anything, he might be a better coach today than he was when the Pens were winning, having learned more since then. He probably got more credit for winning than he deserved, and now he's probably getting more flack for losing than he deserves.

The Penguins are one of the oldest teams in the league. They keep trying to piece the team together with Elmer's glue and Scotch tape. They've traded away a lot of picks and prospects, and the picks they have made haven't been good. The players they have chosen over the last 6 drafts have played a total of 64 NHL games. That isn't a winning strategy, no matter who the coach is.
 

eXile3

Registered User
Dec 12, 2020
4,611
4,469
They had 6 guys who scored 20+ goals two years ago and couldn’t make the playoffs because the defense is awful.

The team they have now you can say it’s talent but there are five previous season where they had the talent and underperformed.

Not sure why everyone wants to give Sully a pass. If he was coaching their teams they would be going crazy trying to get rid of him.
 

zappa4ever

Music is the Best!
Feb 10, 2010
1,719
2,553
MD/VA/WV intersection
When your PP1 is literally an All-Star Team and is 30th ranked?!? That means your stars aren't held accountable and maybe make their own lines too ;) (GCR) that seem to never get altered

8 years ago, the speed/swarm thing was the hot shit when they had the legs and speed but after a cpl years of that system there's just not 20 LeTang's out there who can sprint the whole gm
 

golfortennis1

Registered User
Mar 18, 2022
124
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When he was an assistant with the Rangers, a large portion of the fanbase (on HF at least) hated him. Once he was in Pittsburgh and winning, they all wanted him back as the HC.

Everyone in Pittsburgh thought he was great when the Pens were winning, now he sucks and can't be fired fast enough.

The reality is that the coach is still the same guy. If anything, he might be a better coach today than he was when the Pens were winning, having learned more since then. He probably got more credit for winning than he deserved, and now he's probably getting more flack for losing than he deserves.

The Penguins are one of the oldest teams in the league. They keep trying to piece the team together with Elmer's glue and Scotch tape. They've traded away a lot of picks and prospects, and the picks they have made haven't been good. The players they have chosen over the last 6 drafts have played a total of 64 NHL games. That isn't a winning strategy, no matter who the coach is.

No, he's not. He was absolutely brilliant in 2017 when the defense was down to Letang and some AHL guys. They won because he *adjusted* to what he had.

He does not make those adjustments anymore, and a lot of those players traded away are because he he held grudges against the players. He is the same guy, but he is not the same coach.

I've never understood this mentality. It seems coaches are never to blame when a team with talent underperforms. Just like the "one guy gets hurt another one steps up" crap. If the players were robots, you wouldn't have different salary levels, and they wouldn't have different talents.

Although the fault lies as much with ownership. Only an idiot lets a coach have input into who his boss is going to be if they want to have an effective organization. Dubas could be considered an idiot for taking a job when he couldn't hire his own coach, but with only 32 jobs....

Bottom line, Sullivan is not the same coach as 2017, and while Stanley Cups were longshots since then, no decent coach would have had Crosby playing so few playoff games these last 5-6 years. Imperfect roster or not, there has been enough talent to work with that any lottery talk in the locker room should have only been about the powerball.
 

Malkinstheman

Registered User
Aug 12, 2012
10,246
9,927
Mike Sullivan should have a course on how to build up a ton of goodwill and then run through it all. Most sane Pens fans hate his guts at this point.

Also saying that Dubas or the roster are the problems is just a stupid normie opinion. Sullivan is on his 3rd GM, 2nd ownership group and has gotten like 6 roster overhauls. He is a stubborn and moronic coach
 
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JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
19,534
18,933
I don't think that people remember Mike Sullivan has been a head head coach off and on for 20 years in this league.

His time in Boston back in mid 2000s was a failure. He wins cups in Pittsburgh so I guess he magically got smart only to magically become dumb again.

I don't prescribe to a "rise and fall". Some Coaches will look amazing when they just happen to be in the right place at the right time.
 

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
19,534
18,933
People are shitting way too hard on the roster. Crosby is the sixth best center in the league. Malkin is still a 1C. Eller has been great, and Hayes is a luxury at 4C. They don’t have any elite wingers, but they have a decent stable to compliment their center depth. The D is very poorly constructed, but overall it’s par for the league. Jarry sucks but they’ve been getting okay goaltending from others.

Sullivan should be getting more out of them.

In a vacuum and on paper, they may not look as bad, but the relevant context is how do they look for an 82 game season plus playoffs?

Their core is old, and the question of mileage is absolutely a valid one.
 
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eXile3

Registered User
Dec 12, 2020
4,611
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In a vacuum and on paper, they may not look as bad, but the relevant context is how do they look for an 82 game season plus playoffs?

Their core is old, and the question of mileage is absolutely a valid one.
They are but they’re also still the most effective players so that argument really doesn’t make sense.

Now the garbage around them is a different story.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
85,828
86,546
Redmond, WA
People are too black and white in this discussion, the issues with the Penguins are both that Sullivan is years beyond his expiration date and the Penguins roster sucks.

They're a middling team at best that seems like the bottom might be finally falling out with them.
 

GAGLine

Registered User
Sep 17, 2007
24,321
21,239
No, he's not. He was absolutely brilliant in 2017 when the defense was down to Letang and some AHL guys. They won because he *adjusted* to what he had.

He does not make those adjustments anymore, and a lot of those players traded away are because he he held grudges against the players. He is the same guy, but he is not the same coach.

I've never understood this mentality. It seems coaches are never to blame when a team with talent underperforms. Just like the "one guy gets hurt another one steps up" crap. If the players were robots, you wouldn't have different salary levels, and they wouldn't have different talents.
So, your contention is that he forgot how to coach?

Maybe the truth is that you didn't pay as much attention to the adjustments he made back then because the team was winning, and now that they are losing you are looking for people to blame.

Regardless, I didn't say coaches are never to blame. I distinctly said he probably got more credit for the wins and is now getting too much blame for the losses. That doesn't mean he doesn't deserve any of the blame, but the team they have assembled isn't good enough to win a cup no matter who the coach is.

According to NHL fans, every coach is terrible. The fans always know better. It's just a tiresome routine with no basis in reality.
 

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
19,534
18,933
They are but they’re also still the most effective players so that argument really doesn’t make sense.

Now the garbage around them is a different story.

"Most" effective players in what context?
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,992
21,732
All great coaches invariably fall into the same traps by virtue of being human. Any one or many may apply to Sullivan, I haven't watched the Penguins closely enough to know which:

1) Reading their own press and beginning to believe that their genius, and not the talent on the ice, is responsible for the team's success. This manifests in many ways. One of the most common ways is prioritizing their precious system over the realities actual talent. When coaches are at their peak, they're seen adjusting how the team plays to the strengths and weaknesses of the players they have, to injuries, to opponents. As coaches begin believing their own hype, they determine that their system is the secret, and it is the front office's job to find players to fit the system. When the front office fails to fill the roster top to bottom with players that can play the coaches system and his roles perfectly, square pegs are mashed into round holes and the players are blamed. Players that fill their role well are overvalued relative to the measurable on-ice impact of the role itself. You see grinders become coaches favorites for succeeding at an easier job, but skilled players are punished for making mistakes or playing outside the bounds of their role depite having greater positive impact on the game overall.

Another way this belief in their own hype frequently manifests is when the coach repeatedly ignores the most obvious option or solution to a problem. If the solution is too obvious, then ANYBODY could come up with it, and the coach doesn't get credit. So the coach must find a less obvious, more clever solution, so that if/when it works, he gets the credit for his creativity or innovation. This typically happens gradually, with a middle phase where the coach tries everything but the obvious for the bulk of the season, and only in the playoffs, sometimes pushing it even as far as being down by several games in a series, does the coach do the obvious thing. In the cases where this eventual switch to the obvious solution takes place and the team manages to win, the local press is often quick to praise the coach's genius, while fans that were paying attention facepalmed over the fact that coach should have been doing the obvious the whole damn time.

2) They grow attached to the players they won with. This is pretty understandable, especially if you consider how much more the coach sees of the players during these playoff runs than we do. The ice bags after the games, the limping to their rooms, riding highs and lows of a deep run together. It's understandable to bond with somebody that went to war for you. Unfortunately, this makes it difficult for coaches to accept when the players that were warriors for them in the past, can no longer carry that load. The coach doesn't want to be the one to tell a guy who put his body through the wringer for years following his instructions that he's cooked. He doesn't want embarrass that war buddy by cutting his ice time, reducing his responsibilities, etc. So they keep rolling out the guys they win with and loosening the standard demanded for certain guys. Which leads into...

3) Biases and favoritism. The meritocracy the coach established earlier on crumbles as players see their peers performance slipping without being held to account. Meanwhile, they themselves are still held to a high standard. Coaches darling makes mistakes shift after shift with no accountability, and then a new player slips up once over the course of a game they were otherwise excellent in and gets benched or scratched as an example. This kills morale and hurts the coaches credibility in the eyes of the increasing number of players he never won with, especially as the years since the coach won stack up. Eventually, the coach 'loses the room' and is fired when enough players make it clear in end of season meetings.
All apply to Sullivan.
 

TooManyHumans

Registered User
May 4, 2018
2,888
4,084
Haven't won a playoff round since 2018. Missed the playoffs two straight years by 1 point. There is simply no justification for him still being employed by the Penguins.
 
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heysmilinstrange

Registered User
Nov 10, 2016
3,344
4,810
I think Sullivan has a lot of input on what players the front office pursues and signs, so people solely blaming Dubas for the state of the team now are being short-sighted.
 

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