OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: They Blamed Canada

[ChaosAgent]

You could argue no rookie QB should be starting right away. I think there was a fairly common argument around here when it was clear that's where the Steelers were going with Pickett.

But if you don't believe that then yes, the scouting reports were he could start right away.


I also think you could argue that if the Steelers had picked Purdy, he'd be on someone else's practice squad and not an MVP candidate. The Steelers' ability to develop guys on the offensive side of the ball should absolutely be in that question. If Purdy came over to the Steelers now, sure, that'd be different, but it seems utterly plausible they wouldn't recognise what he can do and would screw it up.



Possible, either consciously or subconsciously. I'd be reluctant to say he does it consciously when that is such an act of self-sabotage.

edit: Also, and with second hand knowledge of the reports at the time, but isn't there reason to believe Fichtner and Canada were Rooney choices?

We'll never know the true power structure of Rooney/Tomlin/Ben on Fichtner and Rooney/Tomlin on Canada. But it's a fact that Mike Tomlin had a previous football relationship with Canada through Tomlin's son. And they had a good relationship, otherwise he would not have been hired.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Fichtner was promoted because Ben hated coach Todd and Fichtner was his buddy who would let him do what he wanted. There isn't anything more to it than that.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I’m still giving him another year and I’ll pretend Tomlin will actually admit to himself he can’t develop QBs and hire a talented OC who can.

More realistically we are stuck in Tomlin Purgatory for another decade+.

It will be like the 80s watching him try and develop his versions of the Todd Blackledges and Bubby Bristers.

Except Noll could still win playoff games even during those hard times with guys like Malone and Bubs.

Here's what I've come to accept as a truism in the NFL: you can miss on R1 QB's. But the key is to not hold onto them if you know they aren't the guy.

Tons of R1 QB's still in this league (Trubiski comes to mind) and they'll be ok as a backup. But you should be quick to move on. I mean T Lance is a great example. 49ers quickly made contingency plans once they saw he wasn't competent/durable enough. That's how they ended up with Purdy

Eagles moved on from Wentz and now they have Hurts. I'm all for giving KP another year but I don't see any extraordinary trait that screams he'll even develop into a Cousins or Alex Smith

Edit - Speaking of A Smith, the Chiefs realized he wasn't going to get them to the next level and astutely drafted Mahommes

All those currently powerhouse teams have taken this approach and it's gotten to where they are today. All those teams easily could have rested on their laurels and accepted "Good enough" from their QB's.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Fichtner was promoted because Ben hated coach Todd and Fichtner was his buddy who would let him do what he wanted. There isn't anything more to it than that.

But Canada? The fact that they were dead-set on such an underqualified guy who had no hype around him? Tomlin's relationship and feelings towards MC were surely a factor.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

My bar is set so low right now that I am not really upset. The Steelers are pretty much what I expected them to be, and the coaching is doing what I expected them to do.

The Steelers have finally hit Pirates level to me. Expectations so low that they cannot help but meet them. And the Pirates have the excuse of a non-Cap league and a cheap owner.

Competence would be a surprise.

In the Trib yesterday they asked a question, only moderately tongue in cheek.

What comes first? A Penguins power play goal, the Steelers scoring more than one Touchdown in a game, or the Pirates winning a playoff game?

It has come to this that the above is only mildly a joke.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Here's what I've come to accept as a truism in the NFL: you can miss on R1 QB's. But the key is to not hold onto them if you know they aren't the guy.

Tons of R1 QB's still in this league (Trubiski comes to mind) and they'll be ok as a backup. But you should be quick to move on. I mean T Lance is a great example. 49ers quickly made contingency plans once they saw he wasn't competent/durable enough. That's how they ended up with Purdy

Eagles moved on from Wentz and now they have Hurts. I'm all for giving KP another year but I don't see any extraordinary trait that screams he'll even develop into a Cousins or Alex Smith

Edit - Speaking of A Smith, the Chiefs realized he wasn't going to get them to the next level and astutely drafted Mahommes

All those currently powerhouse teams have taken this approach and it's gotten to where they are today. All those teams easily could have rested on their laurels and accepted "Good enough" from their QB's.

I’m a staunch believer you give a QB three years and be patient with him - and uh, surround him with high quality coaching, weapons, and a good line.

I have really zero confidence KP or the next guy will get proper coaching as long as Tomlin is around.

It’s pretty clear Tomlin is f***ing clueless on the offensive side of the ball, and he is atrocious at hiring coordinators so…

The only way this team sees Bradshaw/Roth like play ever again is if Dan Rooney takes over and fires Tomlin or doesn’t renew his contract most likely or…

Kahn makes a bold move into the top ten to get a QB even Tomlin can’t f*** up.

Realistically, if KP doesn’t work out, I see a long string of Bubs and Malones in the future.

 

[JTG]

You could argue no rookie QB should be starting right away. I think there was a fairly common argument around here when it was clear that's where the Steelers were going with Pickett.

But if you don't believe that then yes, the scouting reports were he could start right away.


I also think you could argue that if the Steelers had picked Purdy, he'd be on someone else's practice squad and not an MVP candidate. The Steelers' ability to develop guys on the offensive side of the ball should absolutely be in that question. If Purdy came over to the Steelers now, sure, that'd be different, but it seems utterly plausible they wouldn't recognise what he can do and would screw it up.



Possible, either consciously or subconsciously. I'd be reluctant to say he does it consciously when that is such an act of self-sabotage.

edit: Also, and with second hand knowledge of the reports at the time, but isn't there reason to believe Fichtner and Canada were Rooney choices?

Some guys probably shouldn't be playing, but their talent is so unbelievably great, the only way they are truly going to get ready is to play. That wasn't the level Kenny was on. Kenny probably could have used a year on the sideline to learn what he needed to do to be a pro because he was never going to make his career on talent. He's going to make his career on being the most prepared and picking defenses apart.

Stroud is a perfect example of what I'm talking about - watching him in college I never thought he would be doing what he's doing this year. He's just so talented that they are better off living or dying with him and letting him learn...or not and fizzle out.

Fichtner was promoted because Ben hated coach Todd and Fichtner was his buddy who would let him do what he wanted. There isn't anything more to it than that.

I didn't believe it at the time, but I could totally see Ben maybe not executing Haley's plays as well as he could have during peak power struggle years and then would go no huddle and call his own plays and would light it up.

I have heard that the struggle between the two of them was WAY worse than what was made public, and the reason for that is Ben isn't a heated guy and knew it would get out of control if he started yapping. He knew Haley would immediately go nuclear if Ben made the struggle public and would obviously win the court of yinzer opinion.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I’m a staunch believer you give a QB three years and be patient with him - and uh, surround him with high quality coaching, weapons, and a good line.

I have really zero confidence KP or the next guy will get proper coaching as long as Tomlin is around.

It’s pretty clear Tomlin is f***ing clueless on the offensive side of the ball, and he is atrocious at hiring coordinators so…

The only way this team sees Bradshaw/Roth like play ever again is if Dan Rooney takes over and fires Tomlin or doesn’t renew his contract most likely or…

Kahn makes a bold move into the top ten to get a QB even Tomlin can’t f*** up.

Realistically, if KP doesn’t work out, I see a long string of Bubs and Malones in the future.

Agree with most of what you said.
Basically the only way a QB succeeds here is to do in IN SPITE of the coaching. KP to me doesn't have the talent to do that.

 

[TimmyD]

He was and it was an atrocious QB class...probably the worst in decades. His age has nothing to do with learning the pro game. It makes no sense to get hung up on age with development of a player if size isn't the only issue. He needed to sit a year and then take over. He not only took over basically right away, but he also had a coordinator who was getting openly mocked on national television by players who played in the league for years, and an atrocious offensive line.

If you watched Kenny at Pitt, you have seen this Kenny before. He will look like this for a while, and then all of a sudden things slow down and he settles in. It's going to take a couple of years, and now he's going into next offseason with a brand new offense.

So he will be ready to start by the time he’s 30?

 

[T1K]

This mock has the Steelers taking a OT from Georgia with our 1st round pick. They also had Bo Nix as a top 10 pick, kind of surprised honestly.

2024 NFL Mock Draft: Caleb to Chicago, Maye a Patriot, While the QB3 Race Heats Up

Four quarterbacks — and lots of high-end receivers and offensive linemen — come off the board in our latest first-round projection

themessenger.com

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Agree with most of what you said.
Basically the only way a QB succeeds here is to do in IN SPITE of the coaching. KP to me doesn't have the talent to do that.

It’s pretty clear he doesn’t - given he’s had statistically one of the worst QB starts to a career in the last 40 yrs.

The best thing that can happen now in this ass rot of another Tomlin season, is for the offense to just implode and make it clear big changes need to happen.

Art has a habit of living in delusions so he literally has to be historically embarrassed into reality.

 

[JTG]

So he will be ready to start by the time he’s 30?

How things should have gone is he turned 25 when he got drafted. He probably should have sat last year. He would have been starting this year...so 27...or whenever he was ready to step out on the field and be able to quickly make decisions.

I'm not claiming Kenny is going to be the starter here, but I feel like everyone knew what kind of player he was when he was being drafted, now suddenly have totally forgot everything about that. He was the most NFL ready QB of an atrocious class. He was over drafted by AT LEAST 1 round. He should have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick. They may have actually destroyed him. We will see.

All being older does is ensure he is more physically mature, and he probably has more maturity to lead a room of men and put in what it takes to succeed.

 

[Peat]

Some guys probably shouldn't be playing, but their talent is so unbelievably great, the only way they are truly going to get ready is to play. That wasn't the level Kenny was on. Kenny probably could have used a year on the sideline to learn what he needed to do to be a pro because he was never going to make his career on talent. He's going to make his career on being the most prepared and picking defenses apart.

Stroud is a perfect example of what I'm talking about - watching him in college I never thought he would be doing what he's doing this year. He's just so talented that they are better off living or dying with him and letting him learn...or not and fizzle out.

I don't think I agree with this divide. I think all NFL QBs have to make their bones through being prepared and making good reads sooner or later; if redshirting is an adequate development tool for some of them, it's an adequate development for all of them. If Mahomes can sit for a year and it be a good thing, nobody is too talented to not get ready through sitting.

But that seems academic. There was an argument for Pickett learning through sitting, and the team clearly agreed because that's what they did. I don't want to say it was the right call, but it wasn't like it was some crazy thing to do.

The bit where they dropped him into a really flailing team with very little prep was a bit crazy though. We're far enough beyond that that it shouldn't be the deciding factor, but it's a good example of how the team's attitude towards developing players is a bit bizarre at times.

 

[JTG]

This mock has the Steelers taking a OT from Georgia with our 1st round pick. They also had Bo Nix as a top 10 pick, kind of surprised honestly.

2024 NFL Mock Draft: Caleb to Chicago, Maye a Patriot, While the QB3 Race Heats Up

Four quarterbacks — and lots of high-end receivers and offensive linemen — come off the board in our latest first-round projection

themessenger.com

That'd be a good pick.

 

[JTG]

I don't think I agree with this divide. I think all NFL QBs have to make their bones through being prepared and making good reads sooner or later; if redshirting is an adequate development tool for some of them, it's an adequate development for all of them. If Mahomes can sit for a year and it be a good thing, nobody is too talented to not get ready through sitting.

But that seems academic. There was an argument for Pickett learning through sitting, and the team clearly agreed because that's what they did. I don't want to say it was the right call, but it wasn't like it was some crazy thing to do.

The bit where they dropped him into a really flailing team with very little prep was a bit crazy though. We're far enough beyond that that it shouldn't be the deciding factor, but it's a good example of how the team's attitude towards developing players is a bit bizarre at times.

Where the sitting helped Mahomes is that he stepped into the league and became an MVP. Had they have not done that, I'm not sure he is the guy he is today. Again...one of those guys I watched in college and never in a million years would have thought he'd be what he is. The league shifted perfectly the year he was drafted.

 

[Peat]

Where the sitting helped Mahomes is that he stepped into the league and became an MVP. Had they have not done that, I'm not sure he is the guy he is today. Again...one of those guys I watched in college and never in a million years would have thought he'd be what he is. The league shifted perfectly the year he was drafted.

But are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me that nobody is too talented to sit?

 

[bigdaddyk88]

That'd be a good pick.

I do wonder if Daniels fell to 20 would the trade up for him but yeah he is solid

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

How things should have gone is he turned 25 when he got drafted. He probably should have sat last year. He would have been starting this year...so 27...or whenever he was ready to step out on the field and be able to quickly make decisions.

I'm not claiming Kenny is going to be the starter here, but I feel like everyone knew what kind of player he was when he was being drafted, now suddenly have totally forgot everything about that. He was the most NFL ready QB of an atrocious class. He was over drafted by AT LEAST 1 round. He should have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick. They may have actually destroyed him. We will see.

All being older does is ensure he is more physically mature, and he probably has more maturity to lead a room of men and put in what it takes to succeed.

Eh, KP was billed the most "NFL-ready" QB due to his age/college experience. He was supposedly at/near his ceiling when he was drafted. So I'm not sure if sitting would have benefitted THAT much. Remember he didn't start in Week 1, he sat for a few weeks so it's not like he was just tossed into the fire.

In short, I don't think KP's performance as we see it would be altered by sitting 1 year. It appears his flaws are the same as in college. The difference is they're magnified in the NFL bc you get figured out super quick. Note that I don't think this offense does him any favors either though.

 

[JTG]

But are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me that nobody is too talented to sit?

Agreeing for the most part.

I do wonder if Daniels fell to 20 would the trade up for him but yeah he is solid

I don't think they even ponder QB, to be honest. This organization giving up on Kenny after this season would be the most un-Steeler thing I have ever seen.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Note that I predict a W on Thursday night. Home teams on a short week have a TREMENDOUS advantage. Plus the Pats are tanking for that #1 pick

 

[JTG]

If we are faced with picking Mims in the 1st round - we are basically picking Broderick Jones 2.0. Like...tackling position REALLY set for the next 10 years.

Note that I predict a W on Thursday night. Home teams on a short week have a TREMENDOUS advantage. Plus the Pats are tanking for that #1 pick

Like they f***ing should...

We will just be over here ramming our heads into the "Never Had A Losing Season" wall.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Brugler has them taking Brian Thomas, WR from LSU. When I walk his mock after the Steelers pick. I would rather they take Cooper Dejean or Taliese Fuaga.

 

[SomeDude]

Note that I predict a W on Thursday night. Home teams on a short week have a TREMENDOUS advantage. Plus the Pats are tanking for that #1 pick

Belicheck would just trade 1 oa for 3 2nds and 18 6ths

 

[JTG]

Brugler has them taking Brian Thomas, WR from LSU. When I walk his mock after the Steelers pick. I would rather they take Cooper Dejean or Taliese Fuaga.

Fuaga, Latham, or Mims are my guys. 1st round for a RT is steep, but desperate times call for desperate measures and bringing one of those guys in there, the running game immediate goes to top 5. There is no way it couldn't. If they can get Jackson Powers-Johnson in the 2nd round - probably the best offensive line in the league.

Belicheck would just trade 1 oa for 3 2nds and 18 6ths

You nailed it. He will make that 1st OA pick pay dividends for the Pats for the next 5 years. He did that in the 2010's - I think it was with Garaopolo trade. He was playing around with picks from that deal for a good 5 years.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Where the sitting helped Mahomes is that he stepped into the league and became an MVP. Had they have not done that, I'm not sure he is the guy he is today. Again...one of those guys I watched in college and never in a million years would have thought he'd be what he is. The league shifted perfectly the year he was drafted.

Andy Reid is to offense and quarterback development compared to Tomlin as is the difference between Albert Einstein and Rain Man.