OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Steelers need a new ball thrower for the handball game thingy

[Coastal Kev]

Malik Willis has a cannon. Sitting him for a year and letting him develop could pay huge dividends. I doubt we trade up for him and that he’ll be around at pick 20, but he clearly has the most upside of anyone in the class.

And yet here I am rooting against him.......

I don't know, I'll have to look at the video more. It's so hard to gauge a guy who relies on athleticism when he's playing against B average athletes.

 

[DanielPlainview]

What’s going on right now is an attempt to simplify offenses so “better athletes” can play QB. If more players are able to play the position, they become more interchangeable, thus lose bargaining ability/ become less expensive. So there’s a shift to push toward hyper mobility and RPO instead of pure passing skills and mental acuity (game processing, defense reading, decision making, etc.). It’s the only reason guys like Willis and Jackson (and maybe even Lawrence) have been so hyped. But I think the project is going to fail. There’s simply no substitute for skillful and intelligent offenses run by highly skilled QBs.

 

[ChaosAgent]

What’s going on right now is an attempt to simplify offenses so “better athletes” can play QB. If more players are able to play the position, they become more interchangeable, thus lose bargaining ability/ be less expensive. So there’s a shift to push toward hyper mobility and RPO instead of pure passing skills and mental acuity (game processing, defense reading, decision making, etc.). It’s the only reason guys like Willis and Jackson (and maybe even Lawrence) have been so hyped. But I think the project is going to fail. There’s simply no substitute for skillful and intelligent offenses run by highly skilled QBs.

Yes we know your opinion on this, hence the unhinged stuff on Lamar Jackson as he is an avatar for the opposing view.

You make a good point.
I don't think it's at the NFL level. It's an organic bottoms-up thing from High School and College. You straight up win with more mobile QBs versus statue passers, and frankly there's no excuse to not be an athlete at age 17-22.

As a result the most successful college QBs are going to be mobile, and those are the premium QBs making the NFL.

 

[DanielPlainview]

It’s like trying to find a pitcher who can also slam home runs. In the last 100 years there’s been Babe Ruth and Otahni and no one else really. You either have a highly skilled passer with some mobility or a highly mobile QB is mediocre passing ability. The reason for this is simple: they’re competing skills/ not complementary. A highly mobile QB is going to lean on his athleticism to the detriment of developing or displaying a high level of QB skill. These guys will have success in HS and in college, sure and some people will reach on them at the NFL level, but they’re going to bomb the vast majority of the time.

The one in 50,000,000 type player who can do both at a high level is not really worth changing the game over

 

[ChaosAgent]

It’s like trying to find a pitcher who can also slam home runs. In the last 100 years there’s been Babe Ruth and Otahni and no one else really. You either have a highly skilled passer with some mobility or a highly mobile QB is mediocre passing ability. The one in 50,000,000 type player who can do both at a high level is not really worth changing the game over

I don't need a QB to be Lamar Jackson. I just need him to be able to not be the slowest human on the team (ahem, Ben). Brady being phenomenal and skewing the numbers doesn't change that.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Ben never developed the level of skill Brady has. Ben relied on being big and mobile until he got too old and beat up. Then he blew his elbow out. He should’ve retired.

None of this changes the fact the best QBs of all time were all elite passers and displayed that ability over their mobility, if they had it.

 

[T1K]

And yet here I am rooting against him.......

I don't know, I'll have to look at the video more. It's so hard to gauge a guy who relies on athleticism when he's playing against B average athletes.

He was a 4 star recruit at Auburn. He transferred to Liberty after losing the starting job to Bo Nix (Auburn legacy/top recruit). I just mention that because I assumed Willis was a guy who emerged out of no where at a low-tier school when I had first heard of him.

His ability to improvise and make off platform throws is something every team wants. His arm strength is legit, best in this class. Willis has a lot of traits the superstar QBs in the league have.

 

[Coastal Kev]

He was a 4 star recruit at Auburn. He transferred to Liberty after losing the starting job to Bo Nix (Auburn legacy/top recruit). I just mention that because I assumed Willis was a guy who emerged out of no where at a low-tier school when I had first heard of him.

His ability to improvise and make off platform throws is something every team wants. His arm strength is legit, best in this class. Willis has a lot of traits the superstar QBs in the league have.

Interesting, I didn't know that he transferred. I have only seen a small sample so far, TBD

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ben never developed the level of skill Brady has. Ben relied on being big and mobile until he got too old and beat up. Then he blew his elbow out. He should’ve retired.

None of this changes the fact the best QBs of all time were all elite passers and displayed that ability over their mobility, if they had it.

Yes but at the same time who is the last ATG QB with >5.0 40 time? In terms of draft year. Even Rodgers is extremely mobile as compared to Ben, Brady and Manning. So too was Andrew Luck

 

[bigdaddyk88]

What’s going on right now is an attempt to simplify offenses so “better athletes” can play QB. If more players are able to play the position, they become more interchangeable, thus lose bargaining ability/ become less expensive. So there’s a shift to push toward hyper mobility and RPO instead of pure passing skills and mental acuity (game processing, defense reading, decision making, etc.). It’s the only reason guys like Willis and Jackson (and maybe even Lawrence) have been so hyped. But I think the project is going to fail. There’s simply no substitute for skillful and intelligent offenses run by highly skilled QBs.

You do know Maholmes didn’t even know who the Mike was until year 2 and is the best QB in football. He plays a ton of backyard football. A lot of the QB aren’t asked to call protection and sit in the pocket any more. Herbert Allen are what you want as your next QB. You don’t want a Murray who has to run to be successful who has to back up to see over the line.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Ben ran a 4.75 at the combine. That's about where Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, etc. timed. He was not a "statue" QB until he got old.

Since the early/mid-80s, when I think most people accept the modern passing game developed, the 10 best QBs (retired) have been:
Marino
Manning
Montana
Elway
Brees
Roethlisberger
Aikman
Young
Favre
Kelly

Most of them ran between a 4.6 and 4.8 (+/- 0.5 sec).

There have always been attempts to establish "dual-threat" or "scrambling" QBs. Most don't work out that well in the pro game. Some become average or above average. Randall Cunningham was probably the best of them.

It's not much different today. The vast majority of the elite QBs run in the same range, with a couple outliers:
Brady 5.17(u)
Garrapolo 4.97
Winston 4.97
Cousins 4.93
Ryan 4.89
Goff 4.82
Daniel Jones 4.81
Stafford 4.8
Mahomes 4.8
Wentz 4.77
Rodgers: 4.7
Lawrence 4.7(u)
Carr 4.69
Herbert 4.68
Mac Jones 4.68
Burrow 4.67
Watson 4.67
Trubisky 4.67
Tannehill 4.65
Jalen Hurts 4.6
Prescott 4.56
Wilson 4.55
Lance 4.5(u)
Allen 4.45
Fields 4.44
Tua 4.41
Murray 4.38
Jackson 4.34

 

[pistolpete11]

Mobility is great. But you need to be a passer first and foremost or you'll end up being a flash in the pan.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Mobility is great. But you need to be a passer first and foremost or you'll end up being a flash in the pan.

Mobility is the bare minimum even Brady and Peyton were mobile with in the pocket. No one is saying you need to draft a runner who can throw AR2 has stated multiple times he wants a young Ben like Allen and Herbert. Mobility adds a ton to your offense it helps hide your o line and help your running game and buys time for your wr to get open. Brady is the last of his breed and it’s why strong from Nevada even if his knees were cleared isn’t on anyone top 150

 

[pistolpete11]

Mobility is the bare minimum even Brady and Peyton were mobile with in the pocket. No one is saying you need to draft a runner who can throw AR2 has stated multiple times he wants a young Ben like Allen and Herbert. Mobility adds a ton to your offense it helps hide your o line and help your running game and buys time for your wr to get open. Brady is the last of his breed and it’s why strong from Nevada even if his knees were cleared isn’t on anyone top 150

The conversation is about 40 times, not mobility within the pocket.

 

[T1K]

Ben ran a 4.75 at the combine. That's about where Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, etc. timed. He was not a "statue" QB until he got old.

Since the early/mid-80s, when I think most people accept the modern passing game developed, the 10 best QBs (retired) have been:
Marino
Manning
Montana
Elway
Brees
Roethlisberger
Aikman
Young
Favre
Kelly

Most of them ran between a 4.6 and 4.8 (+/- 0.5 sec).

There have always been attempts to establish "dual-threat" or "scrambling" QBs. Most don't work out that well in the pro game. Some become average or above average. Randall Cunningham was probably the best of them.

It's not much different today. The vast majority of the elite QBs run in the same range, with a couple outliers:
Brady 5.17(u)
Garrapolo 4.97
Winston 4.97
Cousins 4.93
Ryan 4.89
Goff 4.82
Daniel Jones 4.81
Stafford 4.8
Mahomes 4.8
Wentz 4.77
Rodgers: 4.7
Lawrence 4.7(u)
Carr 4.69
Herbert 4.68
Mac Jones 4.68
Burrow 4.67
Watson 4.67
Trubisky 4.67
Tannehill 4.65
Jalen Hurts 4.6
Prescott 4.56
Wilson 4.55
Lance 4.5(u)
Allen 4.45
Fields 4.44
Tua 4.41
Murray 4.38
Jackson 4.34

Most of your top 10 greatest QBs ran between 4.6-4.8 because that’s the average 40 time for a quarterback.

You’re the first person I’ve ever seen try to argue that it’s better to be slower than faster

 

[DanielPlainview]

When it comes to the QB position? It's good to be mobile. Not good to be so mobile it impacts your passing and defense-reading development.

 

[T1K]

When it comes to the QB position? It's good to be mobile. Not good to be so mobile it impacts your passing and defense-reading development.

Your point is completely illogical. Speed has nothing to do with one’s ability to throw the football or read a defense.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah no sh1t Ben ran okay at the combine. If he was clocked in 2019 it would have been 5.4-5.7

 

[DanielPlainview]

I'm amazed people already forget how mobile Ben was

 

[DanielPlainview]

Your point is completely illogical. Speed has nothing to do with one’s ability to throw the football or read a defense.

Yes it does. QBs who run lean on it to the detriment of their overall skills.

 

[Peat]

Your point is completely illogical. Speed has nothing to do with one’s ability to throw the football or read a defense.

In isolation, no.

In terms of skill development, a QB with elite speed is probably going to be taught to rely on it more than a QB without it, and conversely is going to spend less time using their passes and reads in a game environment. Which means they'll fall behind the players who didn't rely on it.

 

[OnMyOwn]

I understand completely what KM is saying. You see it in high school and college levels all the time. The best athlete is usually the QB because they touch the ball every play. My high school, for example, had two studs in a row that ran an option style offense. Had cannons for arms but ran on most plays or just chucked it deep. They went on to be a WR and a safety in college, haha.

It has nothing to do with just speed. It’s guys that can run and make incredible plays with their feet that will default to that skill instead of progressing through reads as a passer or learning how to throw guys open. We had Slash for years and saw it first hand. Not all of them, mind you, but you see it at all levels with a lot of these uber athlete QBs.

 

[xlm34]

What’s going on right now is an attempt to simplify offenses so “better athletes” can play QB. If more players are able to play the position, they become more interchangeable, thus lose bargaining ability/ become less expensive. So there’s a shift to push toward hyper mobility and RPO instead of pure passing skills and mental acuity (game processing, defense reading, decision making, etc.). It’s the only reason guys like Willis and Jackson (and maybe even Lawrence) have been so hyped. But I think the project is going to fail. There’s simply no substitute for skillful and intelligent offenses run by highly skilled QBs.

Lawrence would have been as hyped 20 years ago as he was last year.

And a disappointing year under Urban Meyer doesn’t mean he was overhyped. He’s still likely going to be very good.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm amazed people already forget how mobile Ben was

He was. He met the prerequisites of the position. By the end, he did not but collected another $100m for fun anyway.

 

[T1K]

In isolation, no.

In terms of skill development, a QB with elite speed is probably going to be taught to rely on it more than a QB without it, and conversely is going to spend less time using their passes and reads in a game environment. Which means they'll fall behind the players who didn't rely on it.

Kyler Murray has elite speed and has no issues as a passer or progressing through reads. I expect the same jump in development from Justin Fields this year.