OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

[Peat]

We saw the comparison last year when Rudolph came in. Canada was fired but it was the same playbook and scheme. If that didn't open your eyes that Pickett was not the guy, I don't know what will.

And I'd argue the Broncos offense last year was just as if not more conservative than ours. They attempted the most passes at or behind the line of scrimmage than any other offense in like 15 years.

The Broncos *played* conservative. That doesn't mean they were *designed* conservative.

My guess, given that Payton just asked the GM and ownership to spend 30-some million to have their QB go away - and those people agreed - is that the Broncos weren't meant to be that conservative and Wilson could not run the offence like Payton wanted. That Wilson was the conservative element because he couldn't' make the reads routinely enough and checked down a ton as a result. Which, iirc, Payton has more or less said.

Also Tomlin said after Rudolph's games that they deliberately opened the game up because the season was on the line. The game plan stopped being deliberately conservative.

Which made a difference. Ditto playing teams that couldn't defend the run to save their lives and no longer having an all-time incompetent picking, explaining, and dictating the game to game plan.

And none of this is about Pickett for me. I know this seems really difficult for a bunch of people to comprehend here, but I don't care about Pickett. It's about pointing out the Steelers' offensive structure was atrocious in many ways and that if we're comparing the new QBs vs the composite performance we got from last year, it's not a level playing field and that's part of why some people think the comparison is flattering to the guys coming in.

Wilson is the last in tier 3 which is labeled as a legitimate starter that ideally is not throwing a bunch. And Fields is second in tier 4 which is filled with the unproven young guys or stop gap vets.

Wilson got 35 votes for tier 3, 12 for tier 4, and 3 For tier 2. Fields got 20 votes for tier 3, 25 for tier 4, 1 for tier 2, and 4 for tier 5.

That's some wildly all over the place rankings for Fields. I'd love to listen to the the guy who thought he was Tier 2 argue with a Tier 5 guy.

 

[WickedWrister]

The Broncos *played* conservative. That doesn't mean they were *designed* conservative.

My guess, given that Payton just asked the GM and ownership to spend 30-some million to have their QB go away - and those people agreed - is that the Broncos weren't meant to be that conservative and Wilson could not run the offence like Payton wanted. That Wilson was the conservative element because he couldn't' make the reads routinely enough and checked down a ton as a result. Which, iirc, Payton has more or less said.

Also Tomlin said after Rudolph's games that they deliberately opened the game up because the season was on the line. The game plan stopped being deliberately conservative.

Which made a difference. Ditto playing teams that couldn't defend the run to save their lives and no longer having an all-time incompetent picking, explaining, and dictating the game to game plan.

And none of this is about Pickett for me. I know this seems really difficult for a bunch of people to comprehend here, but I don't care about Pickett. It's about pointing out the Steelers' offensive structure was atrocious in many ways and that if we're comparing the new QBs vs the composite performance we got from last year, it's not a level playing field and that's part of why some people think the comparison is flattering to the guys coming in.



That's some wildly all over the place rankings for Fields. I'd love to listen to the the guy who thought he was Tier 2 argue with a Tier 5 guy.

Ok, now apply the same logic you just used about Russ and Rudolph to Pickett. Perhaps the reason the offense under him was conservative was because he is incapable of doing anything more aggressive.

It honestly just reads like you're making excuses for him. There were far worse situations to be in than the 2022-2023 Steelers for a young QB.

I don't want to talk about him either, I made up my mind after ~25 starts after it was clear his time as a starting QB in the NFL was over.

 

[T1K]

@Empoleon8771 @bigdaddyk88

I meant to include Tua in that post as well, but I accidentally deleted his name. To me, all those guys are “unproven” franchise QBs in the sense that the team has made significant financial commitments to them. Russ is live to get benched this year pending results. That’s more what I was getting at.

Maybe I’m looking at it too much from a fantasy football standpoint, but I don’t think Wilson is in their range, he’s much closer to Daniel Jones imo.

Ultimately I think Fields and Wilson belong in the same tier. These ranking lists are mostly for engagement though and I took the bait. lol

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

The Broncos *played* conservative. That doesn't mean they were *designed* conservative.

My guess, given that Payton just asked the GM and ownership to spend 30-some million to have their QB go away - and those people agreed - is that the Broncos weren't meant to be that conservative and Wilson could not run the offence like Payton wanted. That Wilson was the conservative element because he couldn't' make the reads routinely enough and checked down a ton as a result. Which, iirc, Payton has more or less said.

Also Tomlin said after Rudolph's games that they deliberately opened the game up because the season was on the line. The game plan stopped being deliberately conservative.

Which made a difference. Ditto playing teams that couldn't defend the run to save their lives and no longer having an all-time incompetent picking, explaining, and dictating the game to game plan.

And none of this is about Pickett for me. I know this seems really difficult for a bunch of people to comprehend here, but I don't care about Pickett. It's about pointing out the Steelers' offensive structure was atrocious in many ways and that if we're comparing the new QBs vs the composite performance we got from last year, it's not a level playing field and that's part of why some people think the comparison is flattering to the guys coming in.



That's some wildly all over the place rankings for Fields. I'd love to listen to the the guy who thought he was Tier 2 argue with a Tier 5 guy.

Russ is like the antithesis to Brees. Payton wants guys get it out quick, take what’s there, take calculated shots as needed. Russ wants to hold the ball and throw it to the sidelines and throw it deep.

Not that I know them, but from sounds of it both have massive egos.

A match made in hell from day 1 IMO.

I’m really not sure RW is a fit for what Smith (and Tomlin) want either.

 

[WickedWrister]

Russ is like the antithesis to Brees. Payton wants guys get it out quick, take what’s there, take calculated shots as needed. Russ wants to hold the ball and throw it to the sidelines and throw it deep.

Not that I know them, but from sounds of it both have massive egos.

A match made in hell from day 1 IMO.

I’m really not sure RW is a fit for what Smith (and Tomlin) want either.

Who is the most Arthur Smith/Tomlin QB you can think of?

Derek Carr is the name that sprung to mind

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Is RW much worse that what Ryan was in Atlanta under smith

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[Peat]

Russ is like the antithesis to Brees. Payton wants guys get it out quick, take what’s there, take calculated shots as needed. Russ wants to hold the ball and throw it to the sidelines and throw it deep.

Not that I know them, but from sounds of it both have massive egos.

A match made in hell from day 1 IMO.

I’m really not sure RW is a fit for what Smith (and Tomlin) want either.

Agreed about Payton and Wilson. Payton and Wilson only works as a linebacker.

I'm also agreeing about the uncertainty over Wilson and Smith/Tomlin. Should be interesting. Would maybe be more interesting on a different team. And I hope the OL gives both sides of that a chance. This is the worst OL Smith has had to start a season to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Empoleon8771]

@Empoleon8771 @bigdaddyk88

I meant to include Tua in that post as well, but I accidentally deleted his name. To me, all those guys are “unproven” franchise QBs in the sense that the team has made significant financial commitments to them. Russ is live to get benched this year pending results. That’s more what I was getting at.

Maybe I’m looking at it too much from a fantasy football standpoint, but I don’t think Wilson is in their range, he’s much closer to Daniel Jones imo.

Ultimately I think Fields and Wilson belong in the same tier. These ranking lists are mostly for engagement though and I took the bait. lol

Yeah I think you can argue that they should split that tier 4 into 2 tiers and have Wilson in the Carr/Watson/Jones/Mayfield tier and the rest of the guys above. Call it the "bleh starters making a lot of money" tier or something like that.

 

[TooManyHumans]

Who is the most Arthur Smith/Tomlin QB you can think of?

Derek Carr is the name that sprung to mind

Sam Bradford.

 

[WickedWrister]

Patrick has reportedly looked good in camp but has missed the last two seasons with ACL and Achilles injuries

 

[T1K]

Patrick has reportedly looked good in camp but has missed the last two seasons with ACL and Achilles injuries

He’s a really good possession receiver when healthy. He’d be a perfect fit to replace Diontae if he can stay healthy. They featured him in the preseason and he was productive.

Emphasis on the “when healthy” part…

If choosing between Metchie or Patrick, I’d take Metchie and try to tap into his potential. It’s sad we’re in a situation where we’re considering a guy with no legs or a cancer survivor to bolster our team.

 

[MrBrightside]

Who is the most Arthur Smith/Tomlin QB you can think of?

Derek Carr is the name that sprung to mind

Ryan Tannehill. Still shocked they didn't sign him this offseason.

 

[Peat]

Ok, now apply the same logic you just used about Russ and Rudolph to Pickett. Perhaps the reason the offense under him was conservative was because he is incapable of doing anything more aggressive.

It honestly just reads like you're making excuses for him. There were far worse situations to be in than the 2022-2023 Steelers for a young QB.

I don't want to talk about him either, I made up my mind after ~25 starts after it was clear his time as a starting QB in the NFL was over.

And with the bolded you've found the statement I disagree with most in this thread.

This team has been an omnishambles on offence for many seasons. It's stunk from Tomlin's declared strategies down to the players selected to execute them, with a particular emphasis on Canada, who was shockingly incompetent at his job in many ways.

It is not a comparable offence to 95% of the NFL any given season. It's not comparably bad with Denver or Chicago last season. Maybe the seasons before but even there, the guys at the top offensively in those seasons do actually have an argument for belonging the NFL somewhere in a way Canada doesn't. I don't think they had head coaches preaching conservatism either. Like here's the thing with the Steelers. It's not that it went wrong. It's that it looked like it was designed to never go right.

And once again, once again, none of this is about Pickett for me. I could not care less what you think about him. But if you're going to tell me that the Steelers offence the last couple of seasons - longer - wasn't that bad really, I'm gonna have to ask if you've really thought about this. You'll get me to agree that really fast QBs are actually a benefit in the playoffs before you get me to agree with what you just said about the Steelers' offence.

 

[WickedWrister]

And with the bolded you've found the statement I disagree with most in this thread.

This team has been an omnishambles on offence for many seasons. It's stunk from Tomlin's declared strategies down to the players selected to execute them, with a particular emphasis on Canada, who was shockingly incompetent at his job in many ways.

It is not a comparable offence to 95% of the NFL any given season. It's not comparably bad with Denver or Chicago last season. Maybe the seasons before but even there, the guys at the top offensively in those seasons do actually have an argument for belonging the NFL somewhere in a way Canada doesn't. I don't think they had head coaches preaching conservatism either. Like here's the thing with the Steelers. It's not that it went wrong. It's that it looked like it was designed to never go right.

And once again, once again, none of this is about Pickett for me. I could not care less what you think about him. But if you're going to tell me that the Steelers offence the last couple of seasons - longer - wasn't that bad really, I'm gonna have to ask if you've really thought about this. You'll get me to agree that really fast QBs are actually a benefit in the playoffs before you get me to agree with what you just said about the Steelers' offence.

I don't really care to re litigate all this again but you're ignoring that the primary reason the offense has been terrible for the last two years is... QB play. You can't just say "none of this is about Pickett for me" while bemoaning the state of the offense. They are directly linked.

There's a lot of hyperbole in your message but just talking about the 2023 team Pickett had: an average OL, a good running game, and solid weapons in the passing game. Not to mention a strong defense that kept him in games meaning he didn't have to play hero ball.

Some QB's get drafted into situations where they have none of the above. Just look at Bryce Young in Carolina last year for example. New England's roster is terrible this year for Drake Maye.

 

[Peat]

I don't really care to re litigate all this again but you're ignoring that the primary reason the offense has been terrible for the last two years is... QB play. You can't just say "none of this is about Pickett for me" while bemoaning the state of the offense. They are directly linked.

There's a lot of hyperbole in your message but just talking about the 2023 team Pickett had: an average OL, a good running game, and solid weapons in the passing game. Not to mention a strong defense that kept him in games meaning he didn't have to play hero ball.

Some QB's get drafted into situations where they have none of the above. Just look at Bryce Young in Carolina last year for example. New England's roster is terrible this year for Drake Maye.

If you think that the primary reason the offence has been terrible for the last two years is QB when it was already stinking like a cheese shop then you just live in a different reality to me. It took a HoF QB going rogue to make it look respectable at times and it just collapsed without him. Ditto if you think the OL was average. It slowly crept its way above average over the season at run blocking but pass protection was always bad. The pass game weapons had a decent top three but the depth ran out immediately and they had injury problems.

And the rot all started with a guy who made incredibly bad development decisions with both Rudolph and Pickett, and fostered an incredibly risk-adverse atmosphere when good QBs need to learn to manage risks.

You know the fun part? The Steelers have de facto admitted this. They made history sacking the OC mid-season. Three of the OL who started Pickett's rookie season are gone, they used their highest draft pick in forever to replace the fourth, and haven't extended the fifth. The WR coach and WR1 and WR3 are also gone, and they're pursuing guy that would raise questions about Pickens. Doesn't look like Harris or Muth are getting extensions either. Those aren't the actions of an org that think the offence was terrible because of QB play. Those are the actions of an org that think it was terrible in many, many ways.

Not just me that thinks this. Here's someone's attempt to objectively quantify this all.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1754893076399890604

Score breakdown

That says complete meltdown, not QB issue,

edit: And when I say this isn't about Pickett, my point is I'm not saying this because I want to make sure we see how poorly done by poor little Kenny was. I'm doing it because I think some people are making inaccurate comparisons between the situation the QBs faced last year and the situation most NFL QBs face. And if you're looking for an emotional reason behind this, beyond simply stating what I see, it would be disbelief that Tomlin didn't lose his job as part of this. But it really is just what I see.

 

[Coastal Kev]

It's amazing that a scumbag like Sean Payton is allowed in the league and talk trash after he was caught stealing Vicoden from the team. NFL and local NOPD swept it all under the rug. Disgusting scumbag.

 

[WickedWrister]

If you think that the primary reason the offence has been terrible for the last two years is QB when it was already stinking like a cheese shop then you just live in a different reality to me. It took a HoF QB going rogue to make it look respectable at times and it just collapsed without him. Ditto if you think the OL was average. It slowly crept its way above average over the season at run blocking but pass protection was always bad. The pass game weapons had a decent top three but the depth ran out immediately and they had injury problems.

And the rot all started with a guy who made incredibly bad development decisions with both Rudolph and Pickett, and fostered an incredibly risk-adverse atmosphere when good QBs need to learn to manage risks.

You know the fun part? The Steelers have de facto admitted this. They made history sacking the OC mid-season. Three of the OL who started Pickett's rookie season are gone, they used their highest draft pick in forever to replace the fourth, and haven't extended the fifth. The WR coach and WR1 and WR3 are also gone, and they're pursuing guy that would raise questions about Pickens. Doesn't look like Harris or Muth are getting extensions either. Those aren't the actions of an org that think the offence was terrible because of QB play. Those are the actions of an org that think it was terrible in many, many ways.

Not just me that thinks this. Here's someone's attempt to objectively quantify this all.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1754893076399890604

Score breakdown

That says complete meltdown, not QB issue,

Yes, Pickett had a bad offensive line his rookie year and a bad OC for 2. The whole bone you're picking with me is that I said there's "far worse situations". I just simply do not agree that he landed in a near league worst situation for the reasons I stated. If so, Mason Rudolph is the greatest QB of all time for what he accomplished

I'll let you have the last word if you want but I think we'll have to just agree to disagree.

 

[WickedWrister]

It's amazing that a scumbag like Sean Payton is allowed in the league and talk trash after he was caught stealing Vicoden from the team. NFL and local NOPD swept it all under the rug. Disgusting scumbag.

I honestly forgot about that story. There's been so much crazy shit with coaches over the years that I only remember the really insane ones.

Like that coach that got caught snorting lines of cocaine and snapchatting a stripper. Or the one that went through a fast food drive-thru naked.

In reality its a profession that requires you to work insane hours and substance abuse is a way for some to cope.

 

[Peat]

Yes, Pickett had a bad offensive line his rookie year and a bad OC for 2. The whole bone you're picking with me is that I said there's "far worse situations". I just simply do not agree that he landed in a near league worst situation for the reasons I stated. If so, Mason Rudolph is the greatest QB of all time for what he accomplished

I'll let you have the last word if you want but I think we'll have to just agree to disagree.

And I think he did and that there's a number of other factors involved in that Rudolph renaissance, so we'll leave it there. Agree to disagree.

Will be interested to see what happens if he gets some games for Tennessee incidentally. Feels plausible. If I had to pick five QBs who'll get benched this season, I'd think hard about making Levis one of them.

 

[JTG]

Sam Bradford.

I'm not sure a more average NFL player has made $130m in their career.

That's a really good situation for Willis. He really should look into moving positions. Just get the ball in his hands. The guy can really run with the ball and be dangerous, so long as he has figured out his ball security issues.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

You're ignoring the significantly more good that comes along with that maybe-1 extra INT a season.

Well technically that's Mike Tomlin who is ignoring such factors. He's a Mike Sullivan clone where he believes not allowing the other team to score makes you win. Any offense that is produced is a cherry on top of this sundae. This flies in the face of this era of NFL and NHL where scoring has never been easier.
This philosophy is woefully outdated. This isn't 1990's to 2000's football where you "pound the rock and play defense".

Other teams are SpaceX trying to get to the new frontier. Mike Tomlin believes flying commercial is too risky.

 

[Peat]

If I was looking for a habit of Wilson that I think is going to stress Tomlin and Smith out, it's not an extra interception or two because we're still in good territory for an NFL QB, it's the sacks and fumbles. He doesn't fumble a bunch because he doesn't run a bunch, but he's running real hot at a fumble every 10 attempts over his last three seasons. And everyone knows about the sacks. Those things also kill drives.

I'm curious as to how much they'll want Wilson - and Fields - to stay with their wait for the moonball strategies, and how much they'll be trying to get both guys to just get it out and keep the trains running. Smith's QBs don't really run up those big average pocket times like Wilson and Fields.



In other news, they released Kyron Johnson. I think the odds of running 3 OLBs and make Leal the fourth just shortened.

 

[pistolpete11]

Well technically that's Mike Tomlin who is ignoring such factors. He's a Mike Sullivan clone where he believes not allowing the other team to score makes you win. Any offense that is produced is a cherry on top of this sundae. This flies in the face of this era of NFL and NHL where scoring has never been easier.
This philosophy is woefully outdated. This isn't 1990's to 2000's football where you "pound the rock and play defense".

Other teams are SpaceX trying to get to the new frontier. Mike Tomlin believes flying commercial is too risky.

I'm not arguing Tomlin's approach. I'm pointing out that you are treating the 'bad' a (0.1-0.2% higher INT%) as fixed and guaranteed to translate while assuming none of the good would translate. You're taking the 'bad' without taking the good. If Tomlin's conservatism is so severe that it erases the 15 (or whatever the number is) extra TDs Wilson throws a year, then it's probably going to have an impact on the extra maybe-1 INT he throws, too.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I'm not arguing Tomlin's approach. I'm pointing out that you are treating the 'bad' a (0.1-0.2% higher INT%) as fixed and guaranteed to translate while assuming none of the good would translate. You're taking the 'bad' without taking the good. If Tomlin's conservatism is so severe that it erases the 15 (or whatever the number is) extra TDs Wilson throws a year, then it's probably going to have an impact on the extra maybe-1 INT he throws, too.

Gotcha. I see what you're saying now.