OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

[Pens1566]

would that be called "good coaching"?

Who knew that catering to your roster's strength (world class WR crop) would get you good results?

cc: Tomlin, Mike; Sullivan, Mike

 

[WickedWrister]

Claypool will appear at someone’s training camp in the next year or two as a TE. Possible UFL stint in between.

I think his best chance at making a roster is probably just as a ST gunner. Big, can run fast, but doesn’t have the position specific skills to be a starter anymore.

On a sort of related note, glad to see Martavis Bryant back in the league getting another shot

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

would that be called "good coaching"?

Depends on your perspective. It's great in college when you have receivers that much better than the DBs they're going against and you only have one read and that guy is almost always open and you get like a hundred possessions in a game. But the scheme didn't call for Fields to throw guys open, or find tight windows, or make his own reads/calls at the line of scrimmage.

 

[Peat]

I think his best chance at making a roster is probably just as a ST gunner. Big, can run fast, but doesn’t have the position specific skills to be a starter anymore.

On a sort of related note, glad to see Martavis Bryant back in the league getting another shot

Problem is a gunner's got to play hard and physical, and that's not really Claypool's calling card. If it was, he'd have made it as a WR.

 

[Ryder71]

If Fields can ''process'' the game at the needed elite level I have no doubt the preference would be he'd be the guy (factoring age, upside and athleticism). Not that Wilson is a slouch by any means.

I'm not sure however if or when that point will come, but based on feedback from the coaches and beat writers it's rather apparent Fields is closing the gap a bit. Both QB's are dealing with a new organization and system so it's understandable they'll be mishaps and ''growing pains''.

My opinion, our QB room is decidedly better than last year, but again these guys are coming in to a completely different setting.

 

[WickedWrister]

If Fields can ''process'' the game at the needed elite level I have no doubt the preference would be he'd be the guy (factoring age, upside and athleticism). Not that Wilson is a slouch by any means.

I'm not sure however if or when that point will come, but based on feedback from the coaches and beat writers it's rather apparent Fields is closing the gap a bit. Both QB's are dealing with a new organization and system so it's understandable they'll be mishaps and ''growing pains''.

My opinion, our QB room is decidedly better than last year, but again these guys are coming in to a completely different setting.

If Russ starts week 1 (which I expect him to), I can’t imagine him having a longer leash than what Trubisky got in 2022 - 3.5 games.

Our schedule is so brutal that I don’t think we can afford to not make the change after 3 straight losses or something like that.

 

[Peat]

would that be called "good coaching"?

Worked great for OSU. Hell, worked great for Fields until he got in the NFL.

My guess is every OC at every level is doing their best to stress their QB's processing as little as possible. In an ideal world the protection is always strong, the first read is always schemed open, and the QB just has to do the blindingly obvious thing well. That's the dream in terms of game to game performance.

Problem is that this goes south very quickly in 98% of games and the QB's processing is very close to being the be all and end all in solving that.

I gotta say, it was interesting being in camp and watching the specialist drills each position does. WRs are doing a ton of catch and ball protection/tackle shedding. They'd have a drill where the coach would hold out a boffer bat to simulate an arm tackle and the WR would have to use their off hand to ward off that tackle. RBs would have a guy trying to poke the ball out of their arm with a bat. I didn't notice a drill aimed at getting QBs used to working on their pocket presence other than team periods. You'd think it'd be an obvious thing to simulate. There's video of the Chiefs blindfolding Mahomes, spinning him in a circle, and then having him throw at targets. That makes sense to me. There's gonna be times he's disorientated and throwing on muscle memory of where the target is. That sort of invention should be happening across the NFL.

Who knew that catering to your roster's strength (world class WR crop) would get you good results?

cc: Tomlin, Mike; Sullivan, Mike

Tomlin played to his strengths of a very strong defence, a very safe QB, good situational drills, and and a decent running game and got a playoff spot out of a roster that wasn't exactly a clinch to get one - and would have probably got a better spot without QB injuries. Don't think it's fair to say he didn't cater to his roster's strengths.

The problem is that in doing so, he caused a ton of animosity and poor development scenarios that resulted in him having to trash the offence and start again. It was a pyrrhic victory. Kind of like a college coach getting his QB good enough results to go in the first round, but not really equipping him to find success...

 

[WickedWrister]

Depends on your perspective. It's great in college when you have receivers that much better than the DBs they're going against and you only have one read and that guy is almost always open and you get like a hundred possessions in a game. But the scheme didn't call for Fields to throw guys open, or find tight windows, or make his own reads/calls at the line of scrimmage.

Fields certainly had the benefit of an insane WR room at OSU, but I will push back on the “one read” narrative a little bit.

Ben Solak did a breakdown of the 2021 QB class and actually charted the amount of times each QB threw beyond their first read. Fields attempted more passes beyond his first read than any of the other top quarterbacks in the class. Unfortunately this article has been 404’d so I can’t show his work, but there’s snippets and references to it still out there.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Also the Bills just put Claypool on season ending IR. His career has absolutely cratered since leaving PIT and it would not shock me if he’s out of the league soon.

Here is exhibit A regarding how you handle (or don't hanlde) newfound fame.

Claypool was a physical freak who seemed to quickly figure out his niche in the league. I honestly thought with a bit of polishing, he could be a bona fide #1 for the Steelers.

Then he was in the lockerroom with a clown like JJSS and decided that his brand was more important than what he put on tape.

 

[WickedWrister]

Here is exhibit A regarding how you handle (or don't hanlde) newfound fame.

Claypool was a physical freak who seemed to quickly figure out his niche in the league. I honestly thought with a bit of polishing, he could be a bona fide #1 for the Steelers.

Then he was in the lockerroom with a clown like JJSS and decided that his brand was more important than what he put on tape.

I’ve just always felt that his WR skills never matched his physical traits (99th percentile height and weight adjusted speed score).

Dude had legitimately bad ball skills and route running. Would never stack a defender once he gained a little separation on them. Like he always made plays harder than they needed to be. Was the biggest, strongest, and fastest WR out there but never played like it.

And yeah, lacking on the mental side of things.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Fields certainly had the benefit of an insane WR room at OSU, but I will push back on the “one read” narrative a little bit.

Ben Solak did a breakdown of the 2021 QB class and actually charted the amount of times each QB threw beyond their first read. Fields attempted more passes beyond his first read than any of the other top quarterbacks in the class. Unfortunately this article has been 404’d so I can’t show his work, but there’s snippets and references to it still out there.

That's good info. I'm assuming the part we can't read is that Fields indeed threw more often outside his first read. This chart only shows he was more successful at it, not that he did it more.

That said, and I realize I've posted a lot on this topic but maybe I don't have credibility... is what college football I watch is OSU for the mere fact I'm in Columbus. So I don't really have a lot to compare it to. I just always felt like Day was one of those coaches who would physically move his players around in the exact way he wanted them to if he could, like playing a video game. In Day's defense, Stroud seems to have caught on at least in his rookie season at the NFL level.

Fields is a dynamic athlete and a great thrower with a strong an accurate arm. I just have never trusted his ability to do the things required beyond that to be a great pro, and he certainly hasn't been coached up in his career thus far.

 

[Ryder71]

If Russ starts week 1 (which I expect him to), I can’t imagine him having a longer leash than what Trubisky got in 2022 - 3.5 games.

Our schedule is so brutal that I don’t think we can afford to not make the change after 3 straight losses or something like that.

I don't think we'll start of with straight losses, in fact I think we'll get off to a quick start. We'll see how the reps are divvied up but you still gotta give Wilson some slight favoritism to get the call week one.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1378070438757036032

 

[The Old Master]

That's good info. I'm assuming the part we can't read is that Fields indeed threw more often outside his first read. This chart only shows he was more successful at it, not that he did it more.

That said, and I realize I've posted a lot on this topic but maybe I don't have credibility... is what college football I watch is OSU for the mere fact I'm in Columbus. So I don't really have a lot to compare it to. I just always felt like Day was one of those coaches who would physically move his players around in the exact way he wanted them to if he could, like playing a video game. In Day's defense, Stroud seems to have caught on at least in his rookie season at the NFL level.

Fields is a dynamic athlete and a great thrower with a strong an accurate arm. I just have never trusted his ability to do the things required beyond that to be a great pro, and he certainly hasn't been coached up in his career thus far.

that gives you more creditability than most who post here. imo

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

that gives you more creditability than most who post here. imo

Ha! I just meant I don't really have anything to compare it to, because I don't follow CFB other than OSU. (And even that is only by osmosis.)

 

[Peat]

That's good info. I'm assuming the part we can't read is that Fields indeed threw more often outside his first read. This chart only shows he was more successful at it, not that he did it more.

It also doesn't tell us how wide open the second read was either. It's pretty easy to come off your first read if you have a huge amount of confidence in the second. Although, you would expect that to maybe carry over.

*pause* You can see that it's a stat with zero predictive power. We might pick at Fields, but his career has been stardust and dreams compared to Lance and Zach Wilson. Not that anyone said otherwise, but it's remarkable to me just how few of these stats carry over.

Actually here's a question since you know his college career better than most here - what was he like throwing at tight windows/route timing? His rookie year is the only one in which he wasn't near the bottom of the league for throwing at tight windows per Next Gen Stats, and I feel like on tape you see a guy whose internal clock on when to throw at a route is wonky, which I feel like are related things.

 

[WickedWrister]

That's good info. I'm assuming the part we can't read is that Fields indeed threw more often outside his first read. This chart only shows he was more successful at it, not that he did it more.

That said, and I realize I've posted a lot on this topic but maybe I don't have credibility... is what college football I watch is OSU for the mere fact I'm in Columbus. So I don't really have a lot to compare it to. I just always felt like Day was one of those coaches who would physically move his players around in the exact way he wanted them to if he could, like playing a video game. In Day's defense, Stroud seems to have caught on at least in his rookie season at the NFL level.

Fields is a dynamic athlete and a great thrower with a strong an accurate arm. I just have never trusted his ability to do the things required beyond that to be a great pro, and he certainly hasn't been coached up in his career thus far.

Yeah I wish the original article was still out there. It’s when Solak was working for the Draft Network, and one of the unfortunate consequences of todays media landscape is that when someone changes companies, all their work is often just deleted. He’s working for ESPN now so good for him I guess.

As an OSU fan you’re probably better equipped to answer this, but when I think of Fields time as a Buckeye back then, I think of the offense as a deep vertical passing attack. Just long developing routes to Olave and co. Granted I haven’t watched all his games, but I think of that CFB semi game against Clemson and TLaw… deep balls galore.

There’s also probably a correlation between the amount of screen passes and first read throws.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Yeah I wish the original article was still out there. It’s when Solak was working for the Draft Network, and one of the unfortunate consequences of todays media landscape is that when someone changes companies, all their work is often just deleted. He’s working for ESPN now so good for him I guess.

As an OSU fan you’re probably better equipped to answer this, but when I think of Fields time as a Buckeye back then, I think of the offense as a deep vertical passing attack. Just long developing routes to Olave and co. Granted I haven’t watched all his games, but I think of that CFB semi game against Clemson and TLaw… deep balls galore.

There’s also probably a correlation between the amount of screen passes and first read throws.

Let's get one thing clear... I'm NOT an OSU fan. I just live in Columbus.

Your recollection is same as mine, that Fields threw down the... field... a lot. He was a great passer, accurate down the seams and to the sidelines. But as I said earlier (and to answer @Peat) I don't recall him being a guy who drove the ball in tight windows. Was it because he didn't have to? Was it because his coach told him not to? I don't know any of that. I just remember thinking that Fields had the physical tools to be successful ion the NFL, but he would have to bet coached up on the stuff that Day schemed out of his hands (head).

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Let's get one thing clear... I'm NOT an OSU fan. I just live in Columbus.

Your recollection is same as mine, that Fields threw down the... field... a lot. He was a great passer, accurate down the seams and to the sidelines. But as I said earlier (and to answer @Peat) I don't recall him being a guy who drove the ball in tight windows. Was it because he didn't have to? Was it because his coach told him not to? I don't know any of that. I just remember thinking that Fields had the physical tools to be successful ion the NFL, but he would have to bet coached up on the stuff that Day schemed out of his hands (head).

There was a great video JT O’Sullivan put out back when Fields was entering the draft. and basically it was this. He had Fields as more refined than Lawrence as a passer but had Qs about the difficulty of he was asked to do IIRC

 

[Peat]

Let's get one thing clear... I'm NOT an OSU fan. I just live in Columbus.

Your recollection is same as mine, that Fields threw down the... field... a lot. He was a great passer, accurate down the seams and to the sidelines. But as I said earlier (and to answer @Peat) I don't recall him being a guy who drove the ball in tight windows. Was it because he didn't have to? Was it because his coach told him not to? I don't know any of that. I just remember thinking that Fields had the physical tools to be successful ion the NFL, but he would have to bet coached up on the stuff that Day schemed out of his hands (head).

Danke.

You don't want your QB to be forcing the ball into tight windows a lot. Usually a sign of a bad co-ordinator imo. But the confidence and ability to make it an option if needed is good.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Danke.

You don't want your QB to be forcing the ball into tight windows a lot. Usually a sign of a bad co-ordinator imo. But the confidence and ability to make it an option if needed is good.

Yeah I wasn't implying "forcing" but "driving," i.e. making an accurate throw into good coverage and putting it in a place where your receiver can get it. I don't recall that being a thing Fields was doing at Ohio State.

 

[TooManyHumans]

Fields has started 38 games (played in 40) and has 30 interceptions and 38 fumbles. I have no idea why people ignore this when discussing Fields on the Steelers under Tomlin, who abhors turnovers. Unless Fields somehow magically gets the turnovers under control then he will never last as the Steelers starter.

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[WickedWrister]

I'm probably spending too much time on twitter but it feels like we're going to get a resolution to all this shit soon.

 

[OnMyOwn]

Yea, I’ve been on twitter too much as well, haha.