OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Doritos Bowl Match Up - Taylor Swift vs San Andreas Fault

[MrBrightside]

Tannehill is cooked, I think. He's not competition for Pickett unless something really bad happens. That said, if Rudolph decides to go elsewhere, Tannehill as a backup, a guy familiar with the new coach, who could caretake the offense through a couple games if Pickett gets hurt...

It sounds bad but I think it's decent?

It's not a "shot" like a lot of us would like. It has the feel of a Plan B, and the Plan A wasn't so great to begin with. But it does feel like a chips-to-the-center-of-the-table situation on KP, and I'm probably one of only a small number of people for whom that'd be OK.

I'm not advocating for signing Tannehill. I just expect it to happen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If they don't keep Rudolph, I think signing Tannehill to be a backup/mentor to Pickett makes a lot of sense. If he's being signed to compete with Pickett for the QB1 spot, it's less appealing. I think it largely depends on what level he's at though. If he can still be at 2021 or 2022 levels, I actually think that's legitimate QB1 competition for Pickett. He wasn't anything great in either of those two years, but he was certainly decent:

-2021: 20th in passer rating (89.6), 8th in QBR (55.9)
-2022: 11th in passer rating (94.6), 24th in QBR (51.2)

But he was inarguably terrible last year and was eventually benched for Levis. I'm not optimistic that he's going to repeat his 2021 or 2022 performances at age 36, but stranger things have happened.

 

[WickedWrister]

How do you measure obvious athleticism?

Because the combine scores say that Pickett is very fast for a QB over 10 yards and plenty fast over 20. It's only over 40 there's questions.

The most common measurement of speed for NFL players is the 40 yard dash. Focusing on 10 yard splits where Kenny performed well seems like cherry picking evidence, when his actual rushing production through 25 games doesn't support him being a threat in the run game. 11 yards per game. He has like 4.7 speed. It's maybe above average, but absolutely nobody is game planning for his legs. Hell, I'd argue Trubisky was a more dynamic runner.

Neither does the eye test. I'll be honest I can only recall maybe 2 or 3 times in 2 years that Pickett has ever really gained 10+ yards on a scramble. My viewing experience tells me he has the legs to extend plays to the sideline but that's about it. He doesn't climb the pocket vertically either, its always a spin.

Pickett is straight up quicker over 20 than both Hurts and Allen, 3rd and 4th in rushing yards last year. Dobbs was 5th... and Pickett is faster than him over 20 too.
Yeah, he lacks 40 yard long speed... how often does that come up for a QB?

Pickett should be able to rush successfully. If he can't, there is either a huge problem with him that should be exposed so we can be done, or there is a huge problem with his coaching, and we know those existed.

Well I can think of one long QB run from our last game...

And yeah once again I'm just going to completely dismiss favorable 10 and 20 yard splits when comparing Pickett to Hurts and Josh Allen because we have years of NFL production and film saying those two are in a completely different rushing tier. JA also just a much bigger dude.

I think he can show more than he did in 2023, but I'm not sure I would even put him top 15 in that category.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think he's an improvement over the shit Tomlin has hired, but he's definitely still a Tomlin guy -- through and through.

Tomlin buddied up with Smith (and Vrabel) ever since they handily beat the Ravens in the '19 playoffs. That win carried a lot of weight with Tomlin, imo. He saw the Titans with D-Henry go toe-to-toe and whip the Ravens -- something he likes doing more than anything. This is how we ended up with Najee, believe it or not. I've said it on here many times...Tomlin wants an O like the Titans/D-Henry prime O.

His new version of that will consist of Smith running a similar O scheme to what he did in TN (Henry) and ATL (various RBs). Tomlin is, unfortunately, cementing his boy Najee's future here, imo. It doesn't surprise me at all.

I hope Smith runs his stuff and not just what Tomlin tells him to. We will be ground and pound, but I think Smith will still be more innovative than anything we've had here in 4 years. Will he get D-Wash more involved in the passing game? I hope so.

It's not the top (McVay/Shanahan) OC I wanted, but it not as bad as some may think.

Btw, you can count on either Logan Woodside or Ryan Tannehill being in our QB room this year.

I do hope Munchak comes with him.

 

[WickedWrister]

Heard that. Don't dispute it. I acknowledged Fields' ability in my post. It's just funny to me the idea that he's a guy you'd be going "all-in" on in the running game.

I just think he has a higher ceiling (and lower floor) than Pickett. Still a very much flawed QB, but a guy with upside that I think we could get at a discount. More upside than we'd get targeting a QB in the 3rd round. IIRC Brugler has 6 QB's going top 50 in his mock.

 

[pistolpete11]

If they don't keep Rudolph, I think signing Tannehill to be a backup/mentor to Pickett makes a lot of sense. If he's being signed to compete with Pickett for the QB1 spot, it's less appealing. I think it largely depends on what level he's at though. If he can still be at 2021 or 2022 levels, I actually think that's legitimate QB1 competition for Pickett. He wasn't anything great in either of those two years, but he was certainly decent:

-2021: 20th in passer rating (89.6), 8th in QBR (55.9)
-2022: 11th in passer rating (94.6), 24th in QBR (51.2)

But he was inarguably terrible last year and was eventually benched for Levis. I'm not optimistic that he's going to repeat his 2021 or 2022 performances at age 36, but stranger things have happened.

I wanted Rudolph back anyway, but I think his style fits perfectly with Smith's offense. Rely on the run game, setup play actions, and take shots down field. If Mason does 1 thing well, it's throw the deep ball.

If they can't keep him, though, I agree Tannehill is a good backup option given he knows the offense and can mentor Pickett. He did get benched this year, but to be fair, it wasn't like Levis was all that much better (78.5 QBR to 84.2). I think it was a hope and a prayer and/or time to get the rookie some experience. Also worth noting, it was another new OC in Tennessee.

 

[WickedWrister]

I'd be okay with Tannehill OR Rudolph as the competition to Pickett, but not both. Feels redundant. Take a flier in the draft with a real developmental QB3 at that point.

 

[Peat]

The most common measurement of speed for NFL players is the 40 yard dash. Focusing on 10 yard splits where Kenny performed well seems like cherry picking evidence, when his actual rushing production through 25 games doesn't support him being a threat in the run game. 11 yards per game. He has like 4.7 speed. It's maybe above average, but absolutely nobody is game planning for his legs. Hell, I'd argue Trubisky was a more dynamic runner.

Neither does the eye test. I'll be honest I can only recall maybe 2 or 3 times in 2 years that Pickett has ever really gained 10+ yards on a scramble. My viewing experience tells me he has the legs to extend plays to the sideline but that's about it. He doesn't climb the pocket vertically either, its always a spin.




Well I can think of one long QB run from our last game...View attachment 813220

And yeah once again I'm just going to completely dismiss favorable 10 and 20 yard splits when comparing Pickett to Hurts and Josh Allen because we have years of NFL production and film saying those two are in a completely different rushing tier. JA also just a much bigger dude.

I think he can show more than he did in 2023, but I'm not sure I would even put him top 15 in that category.

Nothing about Pickett's production supports him being an NFL starting QB.

But he's pencilled in to get a chance to do that and that is presumably because the Steelers believe the Matt Canada situation fouled up things so much that he can do a lot of things he didn't do.

So. If the people who watch him every day think there's a lot of things he can do but didn't do, why is running not one of them?

Yes, the NFL focuses on 40 yard times. We're free to use our own minds. Lamar Jackson's longest run last season was 30 yards and he only went over 20 yards for his longest run of the game in 6 out of his 18 games last season. Or in other words, if Jackson's pace over 20 yards was rarely relevant, why are we more focused on 40 yards than 10/20? What reason is there other than convention?

Also Pickett has already been a top 15 rushing QB. He was that in his rookie year. His 4.3 yards per carry were better than Ridder this year, and equal to Tannehill in 2019. It's not cock of the hill, but it's not the statline of a guy that can't run.

 

[WickedWrister]

Nothing about Pickett's production supports him being an NFL starting QB.

But he's pencilled in to get a chance to do that and that is presumably because the Steelers believe the Matt Canada situation fouled up things so much that he can do a lot of things he didn't do.

So. If the people who watch him every day think there's a lot of things he can do but didn't do, why is running not one of them?

Yes, the NFL focuses on 40 yard times. We're free to use our own minds. Lamar Jackson's longest run last season was 30 yards and he only went over 20 yards for his longest run of the game in 6 out of his 18 games last season. Or in other words, if Jackson's pace over 20 yards was rarely relevant, why are we more focused on 40 yards than 10/20? What reason is there other than convention?

Also Pickett has already been a top 15 rushing QB. He was that in his rookie year. His 4.3 yards per carry were better than Ridder this year, and equal to Tannehill in 2019. It's not cock of the hill, but it's not the statline of a guy that can't run.

I agree to an extent the 40 isn't the all around best measurement of speed, but its the drill the NFL has been using for like 50+ years so it does have value in historical comparison of guys. Favors guys that played the last 10-15 years as they've really gotten these combine drills down to a science and train a lot for it. PFF probably has rushing EPA for QB's but I don't pay for that shit.

Honestly the best measurement of speed is the Next Gen Stats with chips in equipment tracking the MPH live. I don't think all that info is public facing, but I bet NFL teams have access to it. I know big college programs like Bama and Georgia do too.

Yeah Pickett isn't a pure statue. 18 YPG in 2022 isn't nothing. I guess it comes down to semantics and certain thresholds when talking about the difference between a true dual threat QB and someone that has "sneaky athleticism" (apologies for the white guy cliche).

Looking at all the QB's Arthur Smith has called plays for since 2019 I'd rank his QB's in terms of rushing ability:
TEN Mariota >Tanne > ATL Mariota > Ridder > Heinicke/Pickett > Corpse of Matt Ryan

Factoring in the incoming 2024 QB class Pickett might be middle third in terms of rushing? Like behind Dak and somewhere around Burrow? If Pickett sticks around in the league as a starter I could see him being a guy that rushes for like 200ish per year until his late 20's and then a decline as he ages.

 

[Peat]

I agree to an extent the 40 isn't the all around best measurement of speed, but its the drill the NFL has been using for like 50+ years so it does have value in historical comparison of guys. Favors guys that played the last 10-15 years as they've really gotten these combine drills down to a science and train a lot for it. PFF probably has rushing EPA for QB's but I don't pay for that shit.

Honestly the best measurement of speed is the Next Gen Stats with chips in equipment tracking the MPH live. I don't think all that info is public facing, but I bet NFL teams have access to it. I know big college programs like Bama and Georgia do too.

Yeah Pickett isn't a pure statue. 18 YPG in 2022 isn't nothing. I guess it comes down to semantics and certain thresholds when talking about the difference between a true dual threat QB and someone that has "sneaky athleticism" (apologies for the white guy cliche).

Looking at all the QB's Arthur Smith has called plays for since 2019 I'd rank his QB's in terms of rushing ability:
TEN Mariota >Tanne > ATL Mariota > Ridder > Heinicke/Pickett > Corpse of Matt Ryan

Factoring in the incoming 2024 QB class Pickett might be middle third in terms of rushing? Like behind Dak and somewhere around Burrow? If Pickett sticks around in the league as a starter I could see him being a guy that rushes for like 200ish per year until his late 20's and then a decline as he ages.

Wait. Do they get the 10 and 20 yard split from the 40? I never realised that before.

The thing about Pickett is when he escapes, he looks downfield. He's not a guy who sets off and tucks the ball under his arm. It's one of my favourite things about him, and a reason why I don't write him off. As long as he does that and is not getting designed runs, he's not going to be a top rushing QB. And you probably don't want him to drop that.

But can you make him a little more aggressive and get the 266 yards Tannehill got in 2020? Around top 10? I think its possible. And I'd point out that's the sort of rushing Smith had got out of his guys. Unless he's got Mariota, Smith's QBs are genuinely going for about 50 attempts a season and not going above that 266 mark. Which tbh is more sneaky athletic usage than true dual threat usage anyway, no?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Nothing about Pickett's production supports him being an NFL starting QB.

But he's pencilled in to get a chance to do that and that is presumably because the Steelers believe the Matt Canada situation fouled up things so much that he can do a lot of things he didn't do.

Steelers president Art Rooney II wants to see 'quality play' out of QBs, Kenny Pickett in 2024

Art Rooney II is open to Kenny Pickett getting another shot to be the Pittsburgh Steelers starting quarterback. The Pittsburgh Steelers team president also is open to the organization bringing back Mason Rudolph provided he can be coaxed out of leaving in free agency. What Rooney isn’t open to is

triblive.com

“One of the things we liked about Kenny in terms of his career at Pitt was how hard he worked,” Rooney said. “He took a step every year. We’re looking for that to happen here.”

Probably the worst sentence in the entire presser. He's pencilled in because he improved at Pitt.

Would have been much better if Rooney threw Canada under the bus than admitting the Pitt thing.

 

[Peat]

Steelers president Art Rooney II wants to see 'quality play' out of QBs, Kenny Pickett in 2024

Art Rooney II is open to Kenny Pickett getting another shot to be the Pittsburgh Steelers starting quarterback. The Pittsburgh Steelers team president also is open to the organization bringing back Mason Rudolph provided he can be coaxed out of leaving in free agency. What Rooney isn’t open to is

triblive.com

“One of the things we liked about Kenny in terms of his career at Pitt was how hard he worked,” Rooney said. “He took a step every year. We’re looking for that to happen here.”

Probably the worst sentence in the entire presser. He's pencilled in because he improved at Pitt.

Would have been much better if Rooney threw Canada under the bus than admitting the Pitt thing.

Amazing I now regret not reading this sooner.

That said... right now my philosophy when it comes to the Steelers media stuff is to assume that while they're fairly straight forward with what they do say, they leave a hell of a lot unsaid. They're handing out just enough red meat to sate the crowds on the whole offensive woes thing, but I don't think they're being forthright at all.

It's not a nepotism hire so I guess that is a plus, right?

His dad used to own the Skins. Dude is crazy plugged in.

Tbf, Smith's path to the top looks like most people's. He might have got that first job thanks to his dad but not much more.

If one is so minded though you can point at the amount of ex-Steelers coaches he's worked with - Mularkey, Whisenhunt, LeBeau and Munchak. Apparently Mularkey rang the Titans twice to urge them to keep/promote Smith. I dunno how much those guys might have spoken to the Steelers about this, but it seems likely his name would have come up at some point over the years while jawing. Not exactly nepotism, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Amazing I now regret not reading this sooner.

That said... right now my philosophy when it comes to the Steelers media stuff is to assume that while they're fairly straight forward with what they do say, they leave a hell of a lot unsaid. They're handing out just enough red meat to sate the crowds on the whole offensive woes thing, but I don't think they're being forthright at all.

Yeah, I mean the idea that we can be SF-ish with Purdy or the Titans with Tannehill & Smith is an appealing prospect to Tomlin and the Rooneys. And I guess if you squint you can see it with Pickett or Rudolph. Or, as others have pointed out, getting Tannehill himself here.

Smith is not a home run hire but he's at least a qualified dude.

 

[Josey Wales]

Steelers Considering Expanding Size of Coaching Staff

The Pittsburgh Steelers have had one of the smallest coaching staffs in the NFL for a number of years.

steelersnow.com

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Tbf, Smith's path to the top looks like most people's. He might have got that first job thanks to his dad but not much more.

If one is so minded though you can point at the amount of ex-Steelers coaches he's worked with - Mularkey, Whisenhunt, LeBeau and Munchak. Apparently Mularkey rang the Titans twice to urge them to keep/promote Smith. I dunno how much those guys might have spoken to the Steelers about this, but it seems likely his name would have come up at some point over the years while jawing. Not exactly nepotism, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.

Yeah, he’s not a nepotism hire but is def a nepo baby. Have no problem with that, it’s not his fault and is his dad not supposed to get him a start?

To your second point I’ll say this— Smith went to prep school in DC area, as did my family. Talked to a lot of people in my network last few days that know him well and speak super highly of him. Could just be a case of a likable guy getting references because he leaves a good impression on people.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Steelers president Art Rooney II wants to see 'quality play' out of QBs, Kenny Pickett in 2024

Art Rooney II is open to Kenny Pickett getting another shot to be the Pittsburgh Steelers starting quarterback. The Pittsburgh Steelers team president also is open to the organization bringing back Mason Rudolph provided he can be coaxed out of leaving in free agency. What Rooney isn’t open to is

triblive.com

“One of the things we liked about Kenny in terms of his career at Pitt was how hard he worked,” Rooney said. “He took a step every year. We’re looking for that to happen here.”

Probably the worst sentence in the entire presser. He's pencilled in because he improved at Pitt.

Would have been much better if Rooney threw Canada under the bus than admitting the Pitt thing.

That’s the kicker. He didn’t improve every year. Anybody who is a PITT fan would say that he looked good his freshman season by playing and winning the Miami game but then he was thoroughly mediocre to shitty for the next 4 years.

Which is why he was considered a late round pick at best. Then 2021 happened.

It’s why I can’t take anything out of AR2’s mouth seriously because he repeatedly shows he doesn’t know what he is talking about. He just makes shit up.

 

[ChaosAgent]

That’s the kicker. He didn’t improve every year. Anybody who is a PITT fan would say that he looked good his freshman season by playing and winning the Miami game but then he was thoroughly mediocre to shitty for the next 4 years.

Which is why he was considered a late round pick at best. Then 2021 happened.

It’s why I can’t take anything out of AR2’s mouth seriously because he repeatedly shows he doesn’t know what he is talking about. He just makes shit up.

You've basically outlined above the facts of KP's career at Pitt.

But I'm most concerned with the Pitt connection, period. So let's say Kenny Pickett improved 2017 to 2018 to 2019 at Pitt. Who the f**** cares? Do you think most NFL quarterbacks regress between their freshman to junior years in college?

It just shows an obsession with Pitt specifically. I wish he had said anything other than "well that's what we liked about him so much following him across his career at Pitt." Talk about how he came on in the 2nd half of 2022 or how he avoids turnovers or how he didn't have a chance to turn it around in 2023 due to injury. Anything but "well at Pitt..."

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The real issue is this.

The Steelers, Tomlin and Junior Rooney have pretty much burned through every benefit of the doubt.

Right now they need to prove it before I will believe in any of them again. Khan is about the only one who earned the opposite.

Until I actually see results I am going to assume the worst.

Trust is earned. So now they need to earn it from me.

 

[SomeDude]

Steelers Considering Expanding Size of Coaching Staff

The Pittsburgh Steelers have had one of the smallest coaching staffs in the NFL for a number of years.

steelersnow.com

Why not? More cooks in the kitchen for Tomlin to passively aggressively blame when the team is still mediocre.

 

[JTG]

The one thing the Steelers need to get drastically better at is the development of players. Broderick Jones is a good litmus test for them because he is insanely talented and has all the tools but needs to be coached. If he fails here, it is because they failed him. Funny enough, in a recent interview with Tomlin he said, "We don't run away from coaching players" and that he loves reading scouting reports and guys getting knocked for technique. He said, "that's coaching." Well, our lack of development in most areas over the years has been lackluster to put it nicely, so something is amiss with that statement and the actual results. This past draft class should clear at least 4 starters, and I think all have shown promise to be potential Pro Bowl caliber players.

It will be interesting to see how Smith builds a staff. He's a young guy and he can use this as a retool for himself to spring back into head coaching in a couple of years. If he can start developing staff members here to take with him, it will only help the Steelers.

 

[pistolpete11]

The one thing the Steelers need to get drastically better at is the development of players. Broderick Jones is a good litmus test for them because he is insanely talented and has all the tools but needs to be coached. If he fails here, it is because they failed him. Funny enough, in a recent interview with Tomlin he said, "We don't run away from coaching players" and that he loves reading scouting reports and guys getting knocked for technique. He said, "that's coaching." Well, our lack of development in most areas over the years has been lackluster to put it nicely, so something is amiss with that statement and the actual results. This past draft class should clear at least 4 starters, and I think all have shown promise to be potential Pro Bowl caliber players.

It will be interesting to see how Smith builds a staff. He's a young guy and he can use this as a retool for himself to spring back into head coaching in a couple of years. If he can start developing staff members here to take with him, it will only help the Steelers.

I saw clips from that interview with Tomlin. Looked like Ryan Clark's podcast or something.

I mean, I don't think he's wrong, IF you can follow through with the coaching part.

I'd be real curious if there were specific examples of players that they took because they thought they could 'fix' or improve them. There's probably examples of some working out and others not working out, but the offensive line seems to be a trend in the wrong direction. Green, Moore, Dotson, Chuks in the draft, Cole in free agency, and I don't think even Daniels and Seumalo had quite the impact they were hoping for (though this could be because of who they were surrounded by). Hopefully they can buck that trend with Jones and whoever else they bring in this offseason.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The one thing the Steelers need to get drastically better at is the development of players. Broderick Jones is a good litmus test for them because he is insanely talented and has all the tools but needs to be coached. If he fails here, it is because they failed him. Funny enough, in a recent interview with Tomlin he said, "We don't run away from coaching players" and that he loves reading scouting reports and guys getting knocked for technique. He said, "that's coaching." Well, our lack of development in most areas over the years has been lackluster to put it nicely, so something is amiss with that statement and the actual results. This past draft class should clear at least 4 starters, and I think all have shown promise to be potential Pro Bowl caliber players.

It will be interesting to see how Smith builds a staff. He's a young guy and he can use this as a retool for himself to spring back into head coaching in a couple of years. If he can start developing staff members here to take with him, it will only help the Steelers.

I don't feel like the stuff with Jones is all that complicated... if you draft a guy at one of the most important positions in football, leave him the f*** there.

He's told you he wants to be back at LT for a reason, just as Dotson said the same shit about being at RG.

It's like drafting a left handed hockey player and asking him to be a righty. Ya, some guys like two of my buddies can switch hands and you wouldn't notice much of a drop off in their play, but most guys can't do it.

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[JTG]

I don't feel like the stuff with Jones is all that complicated... if you draft a guy at one of the most important positions in football, leave him the f*** there.

He's told you he wants to be back at LT for a reason, just as Dotson said the same shit about being at RG.

It's like drafting a left handed hockey player and asking him to be a righty. Ya, some guys like two of my buddies can switch hands and you wouldn't notice much of a drop off in their play, but most guys can't do it.

...or like getting a HOF RWer who had success with your first line center, but put him on LW with a center that plays a totally different game than him.

 

[Pens1566]

...or like getting a HOF RWer who had success with your first line center, but put him on LW with a center that plays a totally different game than him.

Has anyone really ever seen Sulls-ma at the same time as MT???