OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Congrats to KC, but Kelce was the real winner winning Swift

[MrBrightside]

Holy strawman, Batman.

No, you'd be picking up the slack with more targets to Pickens, Muth, the rookie, and a FA signing like Boyd first and foremost. But yes, Washington and Heyward could both see more targets as well.

No, it's not based on Mark Madden, although I don't think you have to stretch your imagination to think it's possible that what he said is true. He's not a good fit for the offense, the offense doesn't rely on WR much anyway, he only has 1 more year left on his contract, he's starting to get older so an extension would not be wise, and he's a good, not great WR to begin with.

No, I don't want to 'subtract' from their WR. I want to transform it into something that fits the offense better.

You can say Smith should tailor his offense to what he has available, and I agree with that, but this is the offseason where they can easily change what's available to him. DJ is simply not good enough to plan an offense around, so he's replaceable.

I think this concept is a bit misguided. Pitts essentially served as a WR in their offense, and between him and London they had over 200 targets last year. The Steelers also don't have a RB with the receiving skills of Robinson to supplement the passing game.

I don't want to rehash the Arthur Smith hire as it's pointless to do so, but the idea that you can get by at the WR position in the NFL in the year 2024 with Pickens and some scraps/draft choices is silly unless you have Patrick Mahomes at QB.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Holy strawman, Batman.

No, you'd be picking up the slack with more targets to Pickens, Muth, the rookie, and a FA signing like Boyd first and foremost. But yes, Washington and Heyward could both see more targets as well.

No, it's not based on Mark Madden, although I don't think you have to stretch your imagination to think it's possible that what he said is true. He's not a good fit for the offense, the offense doesn't rely on WR much anyway, he only has 1 more year left on his contract, he's starting to get older so an extension would not be wise, and he's a good, not great WR to begin with.

No, I don't want to 'subtract' from their WR. I want to transform it into something that fits the offense better.

You can say Smith should tailor his offense to what he has available, and I agree with that, but this is the offseason where they can easily change what's available to him. DJ is simply not good enough to plan an offense around, so he's replaceable.

Exactly.

Ever since DJ has become the X, this offense has lacked explosion.

That’s not an accident and while not all of it is his fault obviously, it’s a big factor.

Again, show me another #1 that had a streak of a full season without a TD and two full seasons without posting a single 100 yard game.

And for reference, GP gets way less targets and posted six 100 yard games during this time, in the exact same offense with the exact same QBs.

If DJ was a secondary option this offense would be much better off, but as a I said before, imagine this diva not getting the bulk of the targets during a contract year.

DJ is not some big X-factor in if KP has a breakout year next season, and that line of thinking that you let him go after the season for nothing makes no sense either.

Oh, KP needs DJ but let him play out his contract and move on… which puts you in the exact same spot as this off-season, minus the asset you can get for him now.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I think this concept is a bit misguided. Pitts essentially served as a WR in their offense, and between him and London they had over 200 targets last year. The Steelers also don't have a RB with the receiving skills of Robinson to supplement the passing game.

I don't want to rehash the Arthur Smith hire as it's pointless to do so, but the idea that you can get by at the WR position in the NFL in the year 2024 with Pickens and some scraps/draft choices is silly unless you have Patrick Mahomes at QB.

Warren was targeted 10 less than Robinson this past season Najee usually get 50 targets as a rb.
Philly Detroit San Francisco all have 2 wr and a te eating the targets whoever they have a wr 3 or target person 4 is at 40 targets. Most teams don’t feed 3 wr and a te we shouldn’t either

 

[Peat]

a) I'm not here to dump on DJ. I extend to him the same grace I extend to everyone caught in Canada's offence. I think he's a lot more talented than his numbers would suggests, which is part of why I think he can get a decent return. That said, he absolutely does not fit the profile of a long time Smith guy. As pointed out, Atlanta let Gage walk after Smith got there. I would also point out that in terms of targets per game, Gage was their WR2. He got promoted to prominence after Ridley stepped away. That still only resulted in him getting 58% of the snaps. I'm sure Smith can find a use for him, but I doubt he'll want to keep him and I doubt the Steelers will either.

b) Ideally you'd load the offence with weapons to give Pickett the best opportunity, but it's still a fair opportunity. Detroit were just a top 5 offence with Josh Reynolds as WR2. The Titans were 10th in 2019 with Davis putting up 2 touchdowns as WR2. If the OL is solid and the scheme gives guys a good chance to get open because it's no longer athlete vs athlete in easy to read calls, then Pickett has a chance. What's more, trading DJ away to replace him in FA and with a pick takes away the risk of an injury leaving him with just 2 of the top 3, at which point it does start to become an unfair opportunity. And while you can reinforce the WR room without trading DJ...

c) ... doing it this way results in little opportunity cost. It creates the pick it uses. Yeah, you could have used it at other positions, but you wouldn't have had it without subtracting from the WR room. If you use a pick without creating a new one from trade, then you have genuine opportunity cost. And I might be down for doing it anyway in the 3rd, but there is some cost there.

Anyway. Think I've said all there is to be said there.

 

[Peat]

Another Center I’m keeping my eye on if JPJ and Frazier become too expensive: Sedrick Van Pran-Granger out of Georgia. Comes from a zone scheme and has some inside versatility to move to guard if necessary.

Could get him in the 3rd round.

If the Steelers are relying on the draft for their C, and JPJ/Barton/Frazier are gone by the 2nd, I'd feel pretty nervy about hoping SvPG lasts until the 3rd. I don't know how many other teams need C, but it only takes one team to leave the team stood there going "crap what now". I do know that one potential team is picking right in front of the Steelers in the Rams.

Right now I think I'm hoping they do something in FA, or commit to getting a guy early.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

a) I'm not here to dump on DJ. I extend to him the same grace I extend to everyone caught in Canada's offence. I think he's a lot more talented than his numbers would suggests, which is part of why I think he can get a decent return. That said, he absolutely does not fit the profile of a long time Smith guy. As pointed out, Atlanta let Gage walk after Smith got there. I would also point out that in terms of targets per game, Gage was their WR2. He got promoted to prominence after Ridley stepped away. That still only resulted in him getting 58% of the snaps. I'm sure Smith can find a use for him, but I doubt he'll want to keep him and I doubt the Steelers will either.

b) Ideally you'd load the offence with weapons to give Pickett the best opportunity, but it's still a fair opportunity. Detroit were just a top 5 offence with Josh Reynolds as WR2. The Titans were 10th in 2019 with Davis putting up 2 touchdowns as WR2. If the OL is solid and the scheme gives guys a good chance to get open because it's no longer athlete vs athlete in easy to read calls, then Pickett has a chance. What's more, trading DJ away to replace him in FA and with a pick takes away the risk of an injury leaving him with just 2 of the top 3, at which point it does start to become an unfair opportunity. And while you can reinforce the WR room without trading DJ...

c) ... doing it this way results in little opportunity cost. It creates the pick it uses. Yeah, you could have used it at other positions, but you wouldn't have had it without subtracting from the WR room. If you use a pick without creating a new one from trade, then you have genuine opportunity cost. And I might be down for doing it anyway in the 3rd, but there is some cost there.

Anyway. Think I've said all there is to be said there.

You also have to take into account this could be the best WR crop in the last 20 years, rivaling the ‘04 class.

Some insane talent will slip down into round two and they will miss out on that to keep DJ for one more season?

He’s not prime AB, he’s prime Jeff Graham.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

You also have to take into account this could be the best WR crop in the last 20 years, rivaling the ‘04 class.

Some insane talent will slip down into round two and they will miss out on that to keep DJ for one more season?

He’s not prime AB, he’s prime Jeff Graham.

Why couldn’t they trade down from 20 to 25ish take Guyton or a c pick up another 3rd and draft a wr in round 3

 

[pistolpete11]

I think this concept is a bit misguided. Pitts essentially served as a WR in their offense, and between him and London they had over 200 targets last year. The Steelers also don't have a RB with the receiving skills of Robinson to supplement the passing game.

I don't want to rehash the Arthur Smith hire as it's pointless to do so, but the idea that you can get by at the WR position in the NFL in the year 2024 with Pickens and some scraps/draft choices is silly unless you have Patrick Mahomes at QB.

Or you rely on a strong running game, which is pretty clearly the direction they are going.

And I just fundamentally disagree that what is being suggested is Pickens and scraps.

Muth might not be Pitts, but he's still a very good receiving TE.

Boyd is still a capable WR who both physically and mentally fits what the new OC has said he is looking for in a WR better than DJ, has hinted at wanting to sign with the Steelers, and will be within their price range.

A 2nd round WR is not scraps either. DJ was a 3rd himself and was productive as a rookie. As were Pickens, Claypool, and JuJu. This isn't the NHL where you need to give 2nd round picks 4 years to develop. 2nd rounders step in and contribute right away all the time. It's not unreasonable to think a 2nd rounder can come in and be a WR2/3 in a run heavy offense as a rookie.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

He’s not prime AB, he’s prime Jeff Graham.

If he is prime Jeff graham then why does a team trade a 2nd for him?

 

[WickedWrister]

Holy strawman, Batman.

No, you'd be picking up the slack with more targets to Pickens, Muth, the rookie, and a FA signing like Boyd first and foremost. But yes, Washington and Heyward could both see more targets as well.

No, it's not based on Mark Madden, although I don't think you have to stretch your imagination to think it's possible that what he said is true. He's not a good fit for the offense, the offense doesn't rely on WR much anyway, he only has 1 more year left on his contract, he's starting to get older so an extension would not be wise, and he's a good, not great WR to begin with.

No, I don't want to 'subtract' from their WR. I want to transform it into something that fits the offense better.

You can say Smith should tailor his offense to what he has available, and I agree with that, but this is the offseason where they can easily change what's available to him. DJ is simply not good enough to plan an offense around, so he's replaceable.

Not really a strawman, you mentioned TEN having two TE's in their top 4 target share, to which I expressed doubt that our group would be successful if that were repeated.

I mean the Madden rumor is where this whole conversation about holding in and potentially trading him started no?

I still haven't heard a compelling argument for why DJ doesn't "fit" in Arthur Smith's offense. His whole thing in ATL and TEN was that he used a lot of 12 personnel, which means no slot WR. Tyler Boyd played 635 snaps out of the slot last year, 2nd most in the league. That's a guy that doesn't fit this offense.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Bengals place franchise tag on star WR Higgins

The Bengals have placed the franchise tag on wide receiver Tee Higgins, the team announced Monday.

www.espn.com

No surprise here

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Why couldn’t they trade down from 20 to 25ish take Guyton or a c pick up another 3rd and draft a wr in round 3

Why not a trade down and get a pick for DJ?

If they don’t want to re-sign him, why bring him back when you can recoup an asset?

Again, this isn’t prime AB.

They haven’t won a single playoff game since he’s become the X, and no again that’s not all on him, but he hasn’t been a difference maker.

He’s not the difference between KP breaking out in year three and them finally winning a playoff game vs extending the wretched drought to 8 seasons.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

He’s not the difference between KP breaking out in year three and them finally winning a playoff game vs extending the wretched drought to 8 seasons.

Further to this point- DJ is a guy you "add" to a team to take them over the top in the passing game.
DJ isn't a guy you "build around".

 

[MrBrightside]

If he is prime Jeff graham then why does a team trade a 2nd for him?

No one will answer this question. People drag Johnson as if he's complete trash and then seem very confident the Steelers will get at least a 2nd round pick for him. The sole basis for this belief appears to be "because Claypoole was traded for a 2nd" despite the different circumstances. It's classic having it both ways - up there with all the Pens fans who drag every player on the current roster while insisting Dubas will reset the entire future by trading those same players at the deadline.

 

[MrBrightside]

Or you rely on a strong running game, which is pretty clearly the direction they are going.

And I just fundamentally disagree that what is being suggested is Pickens and scraps.

Muth might not be Pitts, but he's still a very good receiving TE.

Boyd is still a capable WR who both physically and mentally fits what the new OC has said he is looking for in a WR better than DJ, has hinted at wanting to sign with the Steelers, and will be within their price range.

A 2nd round WR is not scraps either. DJ was a 3rd himself and was productive as a rookie. As were Pickens, Claypool, and JuJu. This isn't the NHL where you need to give 2nd round picks 4 years to develop. 2nd rounders step in and contribute right away all the time. It's not unreasonable to think a 2nd rounder can come in and be a WR2/3 in a run heavy offense as a rookie.

Boyd is a 30-year-old slot receiver who is at best a #3 on a real offense. Signing a slot WR in a TE-heavy offense makes no sense at all.

And again, if we are that comfortable that we can get a WR in the 2nd round who can step in and make up for Johnson, why would the team trading that pick and acquiring Johnson in his walk year not just assume they could do the same thing?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

No one will answer this question. People drag Johnson as if he's complete trash and then seem very confident the Steelers will get at least a 2nd round pick for him. The sole basis for this belief appears to be "because Claypoole was traded for a 2nd" despite the different circumstances. It's classic having it both ways - up there with all the Pens fans who drag every player on the current roster while insisting Dubas will reset the entire future by trading those same players at the deadline.

DJ is a classic 1B WR. A guy who isn't a true #1 but has traits that are highly valued (like getting open)

He's still one of the dumbest MFers I've ever seen. Running backward when the first down is already achieved (He's done this multiple times) and bailing on a fumble.

 

[Empoleon8771]

People are going to unreasonable levels regarding Johnson. He's at minimum a good WR2 and good WR2s tend to be traded for 2nd round picks. A team could justify trading a 2nd for DJ because he has performed at WR1 levels in the past with a good QB, and it's entirely reasonable to think he can return to that level on a team with a good QB.

For the Steelers, DJ isn't playing up to his cap hit or ability because they have bad QB play and a bad OC. It's not unreasonable to think that he can be mostly replaced with a 2nd rounder just because of how poorly he has fit with the team since Ben retired. I don't think he would be entirely replaced, but you're not replacing all of what DJ is capable of providing.

 

[MrBrightside]

People are going to unreasonable levels regarding Johnson. He's at minimum a good WR2 and good WR2s tend to be traded for 2nd round picks. A team could justify trading a 2nd for DJ because he has performed at WR1 levels in the past with a good QB, and it's entirely reasonable to think he can return to that level on a team with a good QB.

For the Steelers, DJ isn't playing up to his cap hit or ability because they have bad QB play and a bad OC. It's not unreasonable to think that he can be mostly replaced with a 2nd rounder just because of how poorly he has fit with the team since Ben retired. I don't think he would be entirely replaced, but you're not replacing all of what DJ is capable of providing.

The reason he fit poorly with the team since Ben retired is because the QB play has been poor, not because he doesn't "fit." It was the same OC in 2021 when he has 1200 yards and 8 TD's as it was the last two years - the difference was Ben versus Mitch/Kenny/Mason. If the argument is "we have shit QB's so we shouldn't worry about having good WR," fine, but this isn't about fitting.

 

[pistolpete11]

Not really a strawman, you mentioned TEN having two TE's in their top 4 target share, to which I expressed doubt that our group would be successful if that were repeated.

I mean the Madden rumor is where this whole conversation about holding in and potentially trading him started no?

I still haven't heard a compelling argument for why DJ doesn't "fit" in Arthur Smith's offense. His whole thing in ATL and TEN was that he used a lot of 12 personnel, which means no slot WR. Tyler Boyd played 635 snaps out of the slot last year, 2nd most in the league. That's a guy that doesn't fit this offense.

I don't know how many more ways or times I can explain my reasoning for wanting to trade him that have nothing to do with Mark Madden.

Somebody posted a video of Smith explaining his offense around the time he was hired. In it, he talks about requiring physicality, blocking, and complete buy in, including from the WR. Whether Pickens will buy in is an open question, but he has the size and physicality to do so. I can recall at least a few times of Pickens throwing a big block. DJ's got none of that. Questions on whether he will buy in, he's small, and he's maybe the least physical WR I've ever seen. Dude runs backwards to avoid contact.

 

[MrBrightside]

I don't know how many more ways or times I can explain my reasoning for wanting to trade him that have nothing to do with Mark Madden.

Somebody posted a video of Smith explaining his offense around the time he was hired. In it, he talks about requiring physicality, blocking, and complete buy in, including from the WR. Whether Pickens will buy in is an open question, but he has the size and physicality to do so. I can recall at least a few times of Pickens throwing a big block. DJ's got none of that. Questions on whether he will buy in, he's small, and he's maybe the least physical WR I've ever seen. Dude runs backwards to avoid contact.

If the 2024 Steelers are really going to build their WR room based on how well they block rather than things like how well they get open and whether they stretch the field and whether they produce, we are so beyond f'ed it doesn't matter who the WR are. And really, citing to Pickens as an example of a WR they'd want because he blocks after the shit he pulled in the Indy game is quite a take.

 

[pistolpete11]

Boyd is a 30-year-old slot receiver who is at best a #3 on a real offense. Signing a slot WR in a TE-heavy offense makes no sense at all.

And again, if we are that comfortable that we can get a WR in the 2nd round who can step in and make up for Johnson, why would the team trading that pick and acquiring Johnson in his walk year not just assume they could do the same thing?

And that's what Boyd would be here assuming they draft an outside WR. Sounds like a match made in heaven.

Because Johnson is a proven commodity that would work better in a different offense. The Steelers are taking on risk of a draft pick not working out, but it's a risk I'd be willing to take for all the reasons that have been stated.

If the 2024 Steelers are really going to build their WR room based on how well they block rather than things like how well they get open and whether they stretch the field and whether they produce, we are so beyond f'ed it doesn't matter who the WR are. And really, citing to Pickens as an example of a WR they'd want because he blocks after the shit he pulled in the Indy game is quite a take.

A WR can both get open and block. This is not a novel concept.

...well except for DJ, of course.

 

[Peat]

A 2nd round WR is not scraps either. DJ was a 3rd himself and was productive as a rookie. As were Pickens, Claypool, and JuJu. This isn't the NHL where you need to give 2nd round picks 4 years to develop. 2nd rounders step in and contribute right away all the time. It's not unreasonable to think a 2nd rounder can come in and be a WR2/3 in a run heavy offense as a rookie.

I would go further and say that a 2nd round WR who can't be WR3 right off the bat is a bad pick. It's the standard.

Which tbh represents the weakest part of this - whether another team would make the trade.

Not really a strawman, you mentioned TEN having two TE's in their top 4 target share, to which I expressed doubt that our group would be successful if that were repeated.

I mean the Madden rumor is where this whole conversation about holding in and potentially trading him started no?

I still haven't heard a compelling argument for why DJ doesn't "fit" in Arthur Smith's offense. His whole thing in ATL and TEN was that he used a lot of 12 personnel, which means no slot WR. Tyler Boyd played 635 snaps out of the slot last year, 2nd most in the league. That's a guy that doesn't fit this offense.

Smith likes his WRs to block and he likes them to be big and quick. That ain't DJ. You point to Gage but Gage got 58pc of the snaps despite the real WR1 being missing for 2/3rds of the season and then was gone. I don't think he'll be useless but I don't think he'll be hugely utilised and I don't see a reason to keep him.

And Boyd has still played a ton outside. I dunno what his stats look like there and I dunno if he's still got the legs to do it - never the quickest guy - but he does at least fit the athletic profile more.

And while, yeah, I think the Madden rumour is what sparked this, I don't think any arguments have hinged on it. It's about what he's done here, what Smith has wanted, and what the future most likely holds.

 

[MrBrightside]

And that's what Boyd would be here assuming they draft an outside WR. Sounds like a match made in heaven.

Because Johnson is a proven commodity that would work better in a different offense. The Steelers are taking on risk of a draft pick not working out, but it's a risk I'd be willing to take for all the reasons that have been stated.

So you're going to have 2 TE's most of the time and have one of your WR in the slot? Match made in heaven? What? That's unworkable. You can't have 3 guys running routes inside the numbers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The reason he fit poorly with the team since Ben retired is because the QB play has been poor, not because he doesn't "fit." It was the same OC in 2021 when he has 1200 yards and 8 TD's as it was the last two years - the difference was Ben versus Mitch/Kenny/Mason. If the argument is "we have shit QB's so we shouldn't worry about having good WR," fine, but this isn't about fitting.

The reason you trade DJ is that he's getting older, he's a free agent after next year and he doesn't fit the physical style of receivers that Smith's game plan calls for.

DJ has value because he's a good WR2 and has shown he can perform at that level. The Steelers should look to cash in on that value because he's not a great fit with how the offense is going to be set up going forward and he needs a new contract. It's not rocket science.

 

[pistolpete11]

So you're going to have 2 TE's most of the time and have one of your WR in the slot? Match made in heaven? What? That's unworkable. You can't have 3 guys running routes inside the numbers.

You don't have to exclusively run 2 TE sets, ya know?