The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[Ice-Tray]

Aside from the conditional 2nd round pick, San Jose re-signing or not re-signing Karlsson has no bearing on the trade being good or bad for us once that 2019 or 2020 1st round pick transfers because it doesn't change what we got in return. I don't really think that's a good counter for the argument that an extremely long shot occurrence would be required for people to perceive this trade a certain way.

Getting something for EK being better than losing him for nothing is not a defense of a sub par return that was potentially sabotaged by Dorion insisting that Ryan's inclusion would not change the price for Vegas at the draft, and by Dorion's promise that he'd offer Karlsson a contract on July 1st. This was despite the fact that they could talk contracts prior to July 1st. Dorion essentially handicapped the team's ability to get the best return possible in a deal because of a promise he made not to trade Karlsson between the time he made that comment and July 1st.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your post here. Context I think is the difference.

Evaluating the trade between the two teams is one way to look at it. The most obvious and often seen meathod is the ‘who won the trade’ question. From that perspective you have to look at what both teams got in the deal and compare.

I though that was what you were doing in the last post, but if we’re now looking to evaluate the trade based solely on our return compared to what we ‘could’ have gotten from other teams at other points in time, we’ll that is an entirely different thing.

In my opinion it’s a dangerous game to assume a team could have gotten a better return when we have zero inside information pertaining to what teams were offering. I will say that I was expecting a marquee player in return based on all of the rumors swirling, and was initially dismayed when that didn’t happen.

Since the trade my position has changed a little for a number of reasons: 1) each of the returned assets have been better than I initially thought, aside from the picks 2) it looks like there is a good chance that EK is going to be a rental, and as a rental his value in a trade is significantly lower.

I am a firm believe that you don’t go into the season with a player you want to trade, especially your captain, and especially on an expiring contract. You have to trade him while he is healthy, and you still have a full season to offer. I also believe that EK made it known that he was not signing a deal, so starting the season with the captain one foot out the door (his good foot) would be detrimental to the developing squad on the ice.

I don’t think any team was willing to give up their top prospect for a one-year rental player, and since EK wasn’t going to do a sign and trade, or was able to work out an extension in principle with any of the teams he was able to negotiate with prior to a trade, he was going to be treated as a rental in terms of trade value.

Maybe he could have garnered more at last years deadline, maybe not. PD promised that an offer would be made and maybe he felt that he had to follow through with that, who knows, but the trade didn’t happen for whatever reason, and we’re not likely to ever know if the offers were better.

I don’t think there were better offers on the table over the summer though, and that PD simply chose a poor one to keep EK in the West, or obviously to move EK to a preferred destination as is often the case in other trades. I think in the end SJ made the best offer of the off season.

I just don’t see the value in guessing if we could have returned better, given that we have next to no information about what was offered, and we’ll likely never know. It would be something if fans were shown all of the offers after a deal was made, could you imagine?!

 

[SpezDispenser]

Dare to dream...

San Jose looks old and slow. Now, I realize they have Couture, Pavelski, Burns, Hertl, Karlsson, so they're good, but they look like they can be beaten with speed and Jones looks rather pedestrian.

Imagine...if San Jose misses the playoffs (not that hard to imagine) and that pick turns into a lottery pick.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Where can I find this latest Dorion interview? Looked around and found nothing.

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/dorion...ens-youth-duchene-and-stone-contracts~1553746

 

[topshelf15]

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/dorion...ens-youth-duchene-and-stone-contracts~1553746

"We dont need to worry about finances ,we have the full financial backing of EM"........LOL

 

[JD1]

I just don’t see the value in guessing if we could have returned better, given that we have next to no information about what was offered, and we’ll likely never know. It would be something if fans were shown all of the offers after a deal was made, could you imagine?!

the value in guessing that we could have returned better is that you can create a guess based on a better return, throw around some PD is an idiot posts along with some LOLs, not go to games under the guise of a boycott, and then have a whack of cash available for Christmas and to take that trip south in the winter that your honey wants.

seriously. ... I don't see much value in guessing about returns either ... the only part to it all that appears evident is there was no lineup of GMs prepared to empty their cupboards to acquire EK. idk why that is, but it evidentally is true

 

[GCK]

"We dont need to worry about finances ,we have the full financial backing of EM"........LOL

I wonder if he actually believes that.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I wonder if he actually believes that.

He doesn't. He sold his soul to tell Melnyk's lies to the public. Its shameful.

 

[aragorn]

They have a budget & it's up to PD to stay within the budget but if he feels the need to spend above that budget he has to be able to convince the owner to do so. We have all seen in the past teams spend at the deadline to beef up their teams some successful & some not. I doubt he will be much different but with such a young team it would be a waste IMO to spend on this team this yr. However, they could be a pretty good team over the next couple of yrs & should be spending closer to the cap .. IF ... he decides to keep the good players & spend where necessary. Then again he could have another hissy fit, blame the world for his troubles & alienate the fans again, who knows with this guy? He's got a good young exciting team, it would be awful to waste it on stupidity.

 

[coladin]

The embattled GM, a monumental task lies ahead. This market is ready to move on, but Duchene and Stone have to get signed for that to happen.

If it costs Dzingel, so be it.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Said that he wants to sign both and then added the either or at the very end.

Not quite.

He said he had already said that he hoped that the next time he would talk about Stone and/or Duchene it would be to announce that they have signed either or both of them.

The goal is to sign both.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

The embattled GM, a monumental task lies ahead. This market is ready to move on, but Duchene and Stone have to get signed for that to happen.

If it costs Dzingel, so be it.

It'll probably cost Ceci and Dzingel. Maybe with Ryan's relatively strong performance this season he can be moved as well with some retained salary. If Stone is signed and Batherson emerging, Ryan really has no role here going forward. We have guys who can play RW on the third line.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I don’t think dorion is very good.

Thanks

 

[Micklebot]

I mean you make it sound like without winning the cup, the trade is a failure though, which isn't right.

We needed a number #1c, that was out intent. And we needed to either pay Turris more than we should be to be our defacto #1, or package him with some assets for a real #1.

It was like a trade in NHL 15, and we were fortunate enough to find a team willing to make such a trade with us (most other teams want to hang onto their #1C's).

The only way this looks real bad for us is if we get a lottery pick.

What I'm saying is a trade made to push them over the top is a failure if you end up in a rebuild. Had they made the playoffs and been outed in the first round, no big deal, we can try again the next year. Getting a #1 center is great, but you don't get one in the tail end of his prime to kick off a rebuild, you get him so that you can contend. If by the time we are ready to contend, he is regressing then what have we accomplished?

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Not quite.

He said he had already said that he hoped that the next time he would talk about Stone and/or Duchene it would be to announce that they have signed either or both of them.

The goal is to sign both.

Okay I just watched it again and you're right.

Let's see if they put money where their mouth is

 

[aragorn]

If we lose Dzingel it's not the end of the world, Ottawa has Formenton coming back next season & Chlapik who can play centre or LW in Belleville. They should move both UFAs in Paajarvi & Pyatt leading up to the deadline to add some picks since they can also be replaced from within at slightly cheaper salaries. Paul should probably be on the team full time next yr & IMO Brown should be knocking at the door next season too.

If they can't re-sign Ceci or Dzingel, they should be able to trade both for a substantial return to add to the young talent they have & are accumulating. I would not go after a defenceman like Garner though, he is another soft D who doesn't play defensively any better than Ceci. Might as well keep Ceci or keep the bigger, tougher defencemen in Harpur & Jaros in the lineup who have the size & strength to punish NHL forwards.

 

[Samsquanch]

What I'm saying is a trade made to push them over the top is a failure if you end up in a rebuild. Had they made the playoffs and been outed in the first round, no big deal, we can try again the next year. Getting a #1 center is great, but you don't get one in the tail end of his prime to kick off a rebuild, you get him so that you can contend. If by the time we are ready to contend, he is regressing then what have we accomplished?

Because having a #1 center allows everyone else to slot in and develop properly. It allows us to try out kids like Drake Batherson on the top line and see what we really have in him.

It allows Colin White to have a bit of extra room on the 2nd line with regards to matchups, and develop properly.

There are many other things that having a #1 center on this team does for us, aside from push us over the top for a cup.. And any time you have a chance to acquire one (if you dont already have one), you have to give it some serious thought, regardless of what stage yo are at.

And its not like Duchene is a really old dude either.. its totally possible that he could be here and still be elite when we are ready to contend.

Do you wish that we had Turris at 7m/year here instead? Or just wing it with White and whoever the hell else is healthy at that point in time?

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

man every time i have seen zibby this season he has been flying. He looks like the player we all knew he could become. he's becoming a legitimate star and only 24

 

[HSF]

I dont even blame him for getting Duchene cause we upgraded by a significant amount. The issue I have is getting Duchene then literally 1 month later deciding with Melnyk that we have to rebuild.

It just shows how not prepared the organization is especially with it comes to long term planning

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I dont even blame him for getting Duchene cause we upgraded by a significant amount. The issue I have is getting Duchene then literally 1 month later deciding with Melnyk that we have to rebuild.

It just shows how not prepared the organization is especially with it comes to long term planning

same. we should have gone for it this year and then started a rebuild next year, when you know we actually have our pick

 

[HSF]

same. we should have gone for it this year and then started a rebuild next year, when you know we actually have our pick

bingo

the sens would be a real good team if they still had karlsson and possibly hoffman or a better return for hoffman with all the youth

 

[Samsquanch]

I dont even blame him for getting Duchene cause we upgraded by a significant amount. The issue I have is getting Duchene then literally 1 month later deciding with Melnyk that we have to rebuild.

It just shows how not prepared the organization is especially with it comes to long term planning

Because the reality is that last years team was definitely talented enough make the playoffs, and the players laid a pretty big egg, They weren't that far off in their initial evaluation imo. The team had just finished going to ECF.

But the locker room was a mess and they knew it. And the idea of committing to each other became less and appealing for EK and the team, and it became unavoidable that a rebuild was going to have to start to take place.

I dont wish that they had rolled the dice again with that same core again this year. That would have been a decade long gamble that I dont think would have got us to our ultimate goal.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Because the reality is that last years team was definitely talented enough make the playoffs, and the players laid a pretty big egg, They weren't that far off in their initial evaluation imo. The team had just finished going to ECF.

But the locker room was a mess and they knew it. And the idea of committing to each other became less and appealing for EK and the team, that it became unavoidable that a rebuild was going to have to start to take place.

I dont wish they rolled the dice again with this same core, because that would have been a decade long gamble that I dont think would have got us to our ultimate goal.

lol you dont know shit about the locker room quit acting like you do.

and the real locker room "issues" happened when we started hearing melnyks name more and more. he forced turris out than hinted the same about Karlsson and moving the team. that's when everything imploded

issues surrounding this team all involve Melnyk and Dorion.

 

[HSF]

Because the reality is that last years team was definitely talented enough make the playoffs, and the players laid a pretty big egg, They weren't that far off in their initial evaluation imo. The team had just finished going to ECF.

But the locker room was a mess and they knew it. And the idea of committing to each other became less and appealing for EK and the team, and it became unavoidable that a rebuild was going to have to start to take place.

I dont wish that they had rolled the dice again with that same core again this year. That would have been a decade long gamble that I dont think would have got us to our ultimate goal.

No they didn't know the locker room was a mess or else Karlsson and Hoffman would have been dealt at the deadline last year. That is the whole issue. Its the constant 'whoops' moment that this franchise has. If you commit to trading Karlsson then deal him and not set a deadline of training camp and box yourself in a corner. If you are going to trade Hoffman then again deal him before the whole world knows about his issues with his gf and the Karlsson's

The fact that they didn't know the lockerroom was fractured and wanted the players to come tell them shows you they did not know what was going on

 

[JD1]

actually I think Karlsson saying they didn't know shows you they didn't know. or in our rush to condemn are we not taking Karlsson at his word?

 

[BatherSeason]

Because the reality is that last years team was definitely talented enough make the playoffs, and the players laid a pretty big egg, They weren't that far off in their initial evaluation imo. The team had just finished going to ECF.

But the locker room was a mess and they knew it. And the idea of committing to each other became less and appealing for EK and the team, and it became unavoidable that a rebuild was going to have to start to take place.

I dont wish that they had rolled the dice again with that same core again this year. That would have been a decade long gamble that I dont think would have got us to our ultimate goal.

Erik Karlsson played most of the season with Johnny Oduya while GB refused to let a young superstar integrate into the lineup until it was too late.

Craig Anderson and Mike Condon were garbage.

Cody Ceci played way too much for doing way too little.

Special teams were a disaster.

I would blame all of these things (ie coaching) before ever mentioning anything about the locker room.