Tribute The Official "Fire Tortorella" Thread

[freakydallas13]

• Do I tolerate when speakers ask and then answer questions? Yes. Have I done this myself? Yes. Does Russ Joy overuse this speaking technique? Absolutely.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Good write up.

Bad news, I pondered more.


The Flyers' overarching philosophy that spits on the idea of offense is limiting. It takes options off the table. In no sport is it a good idea to limit yourself and remove options.

I watch the Flyers on offense, and how thoroughly smothered they are. They're clearly figured out by a league that's seen them repeatedly. They aren't just individually beaten as players, these individuals have nowhere to go. And Tortorella has given them no Plan B.

I have long thumped admirably on Boston's transition under Julien. The team could chip it in. They could carry it in, too. But they were rarely easily contained by any team, because they had a neat Plan C for when a team was doing a good job stopping both: They passed to the other side of the ice. Like, long-ass borderline stretch pass from near the boards to near the opposite boards. The reasoning was simple: If a team is able to stop us from dumping and chasing, and also leaving no room to carry in, there must be room somewhere, and they bet it was on the other side of the ice. And this simple solution worked well. Sure enough, there was usually more room, and the act of passing across forced teams to open up and create more room as they reacted and shifted. It's not like Carolina, who when you watch them you start noticing they have an array of prepared plays to gain the zone. Or TB, who for multiple years had somehow managed to make the long-mocked stretch transition into a multi-level beast that was hell to stop and seemed to rely on careful timing and spacing of guys of different speeds stretching opponents apart.

Nah. Just the simplest "Well they have covered A, and covered B, so we shall do C until we can do the other things again."

What plan B does Tortorella provide? None. There has been the one plan. No other option. Forget the idea of a 3rd. That's work, and as Tortorella said when hired, he doesn't bother to do that part of the job anymore because he hates talking to players. I wanted to make this thread the second those quotes dropped, but I was patient.

 

[Hanover Fist]

They look like a team that’s been built a couple of days before with a bunch of guys that have never played together.

 

[deadhead]

I have long thumped admirably on Boston's transition under Julien.

It's not like Carolina,

Or TB,

Gee, I see where you picked three relatively untalented teams that were elevated by their coaches.
Flyers have struggled under Lavi, Berube, Hextall, AV, Torts.
Hmm. wonder what the common denominator has been?

Couldn't be talent, because I've been told the FO is brilliant at drafting and developing talent.
Must be coaching.

Did notice the schemes that don't work did work when the line was Giroux - Couts - Voracek/TK.
Wonder if that was a coincidence?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Couldn't be talent, because I've been told the FO is brilliant at drafting and developing talent.
Must be coaching.

I can't take any of this post seriously because of this bit. I have been vigorously telling you the exact opposite thing for years and years. You're confusing me with you.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Gee, I see where you picked three relatively untalented teams that were elevated by their coaches.
Flyers have struggled under Lavi, Berube, Hextall, AV, Torts.
Hmm. wonder what the common denominator has been?

Couldn't be talent, because I've been told the FO is brilliant at drafting and developing talent.
Must be coaching.

Did notice the schemes that don't work did work when the line was Giroux - Couts - Voracek/TK.
Wonder if that was a coincidence?

Wait, what?

 

[Beef Invictus]

But fine. Let's roll with a team with shitty talent.

The Flyers under Hakstol. Once Knoblauch came in and coached up controlled entries, the Flyers became pretty damned dangerous on the rush. They could dump it in if teams were holding the line, and if teams gave them space to get ready for a dump-in they could carry it in with possession. A sin of AV was that he removed that Plan B, and then later tried to run dump-ins with a single forechecker. (This led to people arguing that the same Flyers players who had been running controlled entries were too slow and bad to do so, thus AV was very smart to not try, despite us having seen thoroughly that they could. hmmm)

Once the Flyers settled into the zone, they had the single plan: feed dmen. And they consequently sucked on the cycle. Sucked horribly. But in the stage of the game where they had more than one plan to rely on? Far better.

Tortorella has a single plan and nothing else. The team would immediately improve if there was another. There is not.

 

[Stop the Madness]

Bad news, I pondered more.


The Flyers' overarching philosophy that spits on the idea of offense is limiting. It takes options off the table. In no sport is it a good idea to limit yourself and remove options.

I watch the Flyers on offense, and how thoroughly smothered they are. They're clearly figured out by a league that's seen them repeatedly. They aren't just individually beaten as players, these individuals have nowhere to go. And Tortorella has given them no Plan B.

I have long thumped admirably on Boston's transition under Julien. The team could chip it in. They could carry it in, too. But they were rarely easily contained by any team, because they had a neat Plan C for when a team was doing a good job stopping both: They passed to the other side of the ice. Like, long-ass borderline stretch pass from near the boards to near the opposite boards. The reasoning was simple: If a team is able to stop us from dumping and chasing, and also leaving no room to carry in, there must be room somewhere, and they bet it was on the other side of the ice. And this simple solution worked well. Sure enough, there was usually more room, and the act of passing across forced teams to open up and create more room as they reacted and shifted. It's not like Carolina, who when you watch them you start noticing they have an array of prepared plays to gain the zone. Or TB, who for multiple years had somehow managed to make the long-mocked stretch transition into a multi-level beast that was hell to stop and seemed to rely on careful timing and spacing of guys of different speeds stretching opponents apart.

Nah. Just the simplest "Well they have covered A, and covered B, so we shall do C until we can do the other things again."

What plan B does Tortorella provide? None. There has been the one plan. No other option. Forget the idea of a 3rd. That's work, and as Tortorella said when hired, he doesn't bother to do that part of the job anymore because he hates talking to players. I wanted to make this thread the second those quotes dropped, but I was patient.

In all honesty I have only started following hockey and the flyers since about 2011 when I moved to South Jersey.


I was unfortunately on the end of the flyers more promising years into the firing of Lavi 4 games into a season.

Trying to understand the game more and more each year and i appreciate these posts the most from more experienced and knowledgeable fans.

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I was dying listening to him mock Flyer fans who support Torts on social media

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Scratching Luchanko in back-to-backs when they are supposedly "evaluating" whether he is NHL ready...is certainly a choice. Torts seems more clueless than ever.

And I knew it was going to happen. Torts pushed for the kid to be on the opening night roster but when the games started he was quick to pull the plug. As I said before the season started it is a pointless exercise.
The kid is obviously not ready but this is Torts just being a asshole. This is example number ten thousand of it

 

[Beef Invictus]

In all honesty I have only started following hockey and the flyers since about 2011 when I moved to South Jersey.


I was unfortunately on the end of the flyers more promising years into the firing of Lavi 4 games into a season.

Trying to understand the game more and more each year and i appreciate these posts the most from more experienced and knowledgeable fans.

Thanks for sharing this.

End stage Lavi is another example of not having a backup plan. He ran a left wing lock then, which he eventually switched to a "weak-side winger lock" in his next job so that it wasn't just one side committing to defense. Go back and watch those torturous games, and because he was trying to emphasize defense at management's order, the way he did that in his system was pretty much committing the left wing as another dman. They became mostly unavailable to work the left side and move up ice. Every Flyers transition ended up dying along the right boards in a slog as a result.

Lots of people like to pretend the system enforced by the coach doesn't matter, but it very much does as it informs what players will do. A bad system will rapidly make a good roster look terrible.

Hartnell excelled in the left wing lock (along with Briere as those two would just swap positions on the back check so his weakness was erased), until it became a muddled confusion because he was supposed to stay behind as late as possible to support the defensive effort to the end, while also supposed to move up ice and the conflict of demands befuddled him. He wasn't a bad player, he was given an impossible task.

I don't know that our players are bad. I do know they're trying to work some impossible tasks without enough alternatives available

 

[NYCFlyer]

End stage Lavi is another example of not having a backup plan. He ran a left wing lock then, which he eventually switched to a "weak-side winger lock" in his next job so that it wasn't just one side committing to defense. Go back and watch those torturous games, and because he was trying to emphasize defense at management's order, the way he did that in his system was pretty much committing the left wing as another dman. They became mostly unavailable to work the left side and move up ice. Every Flyers transition ended up dying along the right boards in a slog as a result.

Lots of people like to pretend the system enforced by the coach doesn't matter, but it very much does as it informs what players will do. A bad system will rapidly make a good roster look terrible.

Hartnell excelled in the left wing lock (along with Briere as those two would just swap positions on the back check so his weakness was erased), until it became a muddled confusion because he was supposed to stay behind as late as possible to support the defensive effort to the end, while also supposed to move up ice and the conflict of demands befuddled him. He wasn't a bad player, he was given an impossible task.

I don't know that our players are bad. I do know they're trying to work some impossible tasks without enough alternatives available

It's ashame your posts come across so biased/angry that your message gets tuned out. I'd say this a simpler way. A good coach uses a system that his players can execute. Players play faster/better because they aren't in their own heads.

Not sure any system can work well with a center group of Frost, Laughton, Cates and Poehling.

 

[deadhead]

From 2014 until now, how many seasons did the Flyers field 2 solid scoring lines and 2 pair of top 4 D-men? Basically 2019.

top 6/top 4
2014-15: G, Voracek, Couts, B Schenn [Read, Simmonds] - Streit [MDZ, AMac, Schultz]
2015-16: G, Voracek, Couts, Simmonds, B Schenn [Raffl] - [MDZ, AMac, Streit, Gudas]
2016-17: G, Voracek, Couts, B Schenn [Simmonds, Raffl] - Provorov [MDZ, Gudas, AMac]
2017-18: G, Voracek, Couts, [Simmonds, Filppula, TK] - Provorov, Ghost [Amac, Manning, Hagg]
2018-19: G, Couts, Voracek, JVR, TK [Simmonds] - Provorov, [Sanheim, Ghost, Gudas, AMac]
2019-20: G, Couts, Voracek, Hayes, JVR, TK, Lindblom - Provorov, Niskanen, Sanheim, Braun [Ghost]
2020-21: G, Couts, Voracek, Hayes, TK, JVR, Farabee - Provorov, Sanheim [Myers, Braun, Ghost]
2021-22: G, Couts, Hayes, TK, Atkinson, Farabee [JVR] - Provorov, Sanheim [Risto, Braun]
2022-23: TK, Hayes, Tippett, Frost, Farabee [Laughton] - Provorov, Sanheim [TDA, York, Risto]
2023-24: TK, Tippett, Frost, Farabee [Foerster, Couts] - Sanheim, York, Walker [Seeler, Risto]

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's ashame your posts come across so biased/angry that your message gets tuned out. I'd say this a simpler way. A good coach uses a system that his players can execute. Players play faster/better because they aren't in their own heads.

Not sure any system can work well with a center group of Frost, Laughton, Cates and Poehling.

There's nothing angry about my posts.

Your exact argument was used in favor of AV largely abandoning controlled entry. "Which of these players can even do that?"

Well, all of them who played with Hakstol, we know that. And if these guys aren't good enough to play basic pro level hockey concepts, then I'm right that management has miserably failed at development and scouting. Not that I think they can be made good, but I strongly doubt that we are looking at this groups ceiling

This isn't angry, just facts. It isn't my fault the facts around how this team is run are bad.


Edit: oh and fully agree on good coaches using players to their strengths. I think Lavi is the last time that was clearly happening? Berube famously used some players badly but as far as brutally safe systems go...I mean, not bad! The meticulous transition made getting up ice difficult, but at least they worked as a unit.

 

[Beef Invictus]

From 2014 until now, how many seasons did the Flyers field 2 solid scoring lines and 2 pair of top 4 D-men? Basically 2019.

top 6/top 4
2014-15: G, Voracek, Couts, B Schenn [Read, Simmonds] - Streit [MDZ, AMac, Schultz]
2015-16: G, Voracek, Couts, Simmonds, B Schenn [Raffl] - [MDZ, AMac, Streit, Gudas]
2016-17: G, Voracek, Couts, B Schenn [Simmonds, Raffl] - Provorov [MDZ, Gudas, AMac]
2017-18: G, Voracek, Couts, [Simmonds, Filppula, TK] - Provorov, Ghost [Amac, Manning, Hagg]
2018-19: G, Couts, Voracek, JVR, TK [Simmonds] - Provorov, [Sanheim, Ghost, Gudas, AMac]
2019-20: G, Couts, Voracek, Hayes, JVR, TK, Lindblom - Provorov, Niskanen, Sanheim, Braun [Ghost]
2020-21: G, Couts, Voracek, Hayes, TK, JVR, Farabee - Provorov, Sanheim [Myers, Braun, Ghost]
2021-22: G, Couts, Hayes, TK, Atkinson, Farabee [JVR] - Provorov, Sanheim [Risto, Braun]
2022-23: TK, Hayes, Tippett, Frost, Farabee [Laughton] - Provorov, Sanheim [TDA, York, Risto]
2023-24: TK, Tippett, Frost, Farabee [Foerster, Couts] - Sanheim, York, Walker [Seeler, Risto]

Is keeping almost the entire management group responsible for most of that time good or bad

 

[Wangstar]

Keep Torts for this season. Find a coach that can get a young rebuilding team on an upwards trajectory

 

[renberg]

Keep Torts for this season. Find a coach that can get a young rebuilding team on an upwards trajectory

The only problem with canning Torts is what will the geniuses is the FO find to replace him? Probably another Torts clone- Rocky, Lappy, or the like. Would Sullivan or Shaw be any better? I can't see them looking for an innovative replacement.

 

[A1LeafNation]

The only problem with canning Torts is what will the geniuses is the FO find to replace him? Probably another Torts clone- Rocky, Lappy, or the like. Would Sullivan or Shaw be any better? I can't see them looking for an innovative replacement.

Todd Mclellan?