kb
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Blue Jays Discussion: The official Davis Schneider Appreciation Society
- Thread starter The Nemesis
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LaP
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That won be enough though.
Yes Garcia and Seager are better than Vlad and Bo. But the rest of Texas lineup is better offensively. Who's Jays Marcus Siemen? I don't see any comparable personally. Then they have others good hitters like Heim, Lowe, Jung. They have good kids too who got good experience this year like Carter. Jays needs to do much more than just replace Vlad.
Replacing Vlad and thinking you did enough would be like Bergevin trading Subban while thinking he did enough. Soto with the Jays will be alone surrounded by guys who can't run batters in. The dynamic will be the same. Springer wont get better moving forward. Jays need a 3rd guy imo to play the role Springer can't play anymore. Jays also need to start thinking about giving a chance to Barger. Use him or trade him at this point.
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TheBeastCoast
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Seath The Scaleless
Paledrake
Eyedea
The Legend Continues
I have a feeling they'll really regret moving Vlad if they go that direction.
Soto-Vlad batting 3-4 would be epic if we could somehow get Soto and Keep Vlad.
Suntouchable13
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One thing I don't understand, perhaps someone can explain: This team was crap 2017, 2018, 2019, where is the young core from all that suckage? I mean, we do have Bo and Vladdy but Vladdy came before all those rebuilding years. Those young teams like Astros and Cubs that won, were built on a young core that came from the draft. Jays built this team on free agents and trades. Shouldn't we have more young players like a Bo Bichette at different positions?
Problems is, the team wasnt that bad except in 2019. They had a high draft pick during the COVID year. Manoah was a good pick.
Suntouchable13
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You're right, but then what was the point of 2017 and 2018? What was the plan? Obviously, 2020 they did not expect to contend but then COVID hit and they made the playoffs in a shortened year. I guess this wasn't a traditional rebuild as they signed free agents. 2020 Ryu, then 2021 Springer.
phillipmike
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- Oct 27, 2009
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Jays went to the ALCS in 2016, and you only lost EE. The Jays were trying to contend in 2017. You aren’t tanking after 2016.
In 2015, 86 wins got you in the playoffs and in 2017, 85 wins got you in. They tried to get in again in 2018.
After failing both years they decided to rebuild in 2019. To basically tank for only 1 year and be back in contention in 2020 is remarkable and really back in contention in 2021, 2022 and 2023.
Still frustrating they haven’t shown real results for the playoffs but the build was very quick.
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Ahh, yes that's correct. I think starting the rebuild in 2018 would have made sense even at the time. The team was aging and there weren't many prospects around at the time.
phillipmike
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2017 Draft and IFA:
-Ryan Noda turned in Ross Stripling
-Davis Schneider came up this year
-Riley Adams traded for Brad Hand
-Kevin Smith and Zach Logue traded for Matt Chapman
-Alberto Rodriguez turned into Taijuan Walker
-Jays still have Nate Pearson (always injured), Hagen Danner, Leonardo Jimenez and wildcards in Hiraldo and Pardinho
Probably a C Draft. Could be a B if Schneider is a legit starter and Pearson reaches potential as a reliever or Jimenez is a starter or nets a good MLB return.
2018 Draft and IFA:
-Groshans traded for Bass and Pop
-Kloffenstein trade for Jordan Hicks
-Jays still have Addison Barger, and Orelvis Martinez
F but could turn into a C if one of Orelvis or Barger is a legit starting 3B. Could be a A if both hit
2019 Draft and IFA:
-Alek Manoah was a stud.
-Kendall Williams turned in Ross Stripling
-Andrew McInvale turned into Adam Cimber
-Sem Robberse turned into Jordan Hicks
-Jays still have Horwitz, Dasan Brown, Zulueta and a few wildcards like their top 2 IFA signings in Machado and de Castro and other AAAA guys like Cam Eden, Tanner Morris, Will Robertson, Glen Santiago, Brandon Eisert etc.
Manoah was a slam dunk TORP which made it a A draft but his play last year throws a major wrinkle. Still could be a B draft with a Manoah rebuild or some of the wildcards becoming regulars.
It’s not an impressive list at all but they didn’t have a top 10 pick any of these drafts.
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- Dec 12, 2017
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Yeah, the way baseball goes now, having a rebuild that consists of three seasons where you lose 86, 89, and 95 games before moving back over .500 is pretty impressive.
For reference, Baltimore lost 87, 108, 110, 115, and were on pace to lose 95 in 2020.
Texas lost 84, 84, 94, 95, 102, and were on pace to lose 102 in 2020.
The Astros were below .500 seven times in eight seasons, including 106, 107, and 111 games before getting back to the playoffs.
The Cubs weren't nearly as bad with only five straight sub-.500 seasons, peaking at 96 and 101 losses. That's still a far worse stretch than the Jays.
Not tearing things down quickly enough really hurt the Jays, but considering how much everyone thought that stretch was so unbearable, it's pretty crazy that it was so much shorter and not nearly as bad as those other teams.
phillipmike
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And Texas is incredibly lucky imo. Took them 7 years to finally make the playoffs and 1 more loss in the regular season they fail to advance to the post season. If they are in the AL East, they dont make the playoffs. Baltimore is in the same boat 7 years later, they are a much better team but won no playoffs games this year either.
If you look at all the other 2015-16 playoff teams who havent rebounded fully or at all;
-Royals have 8 losing seasons in a row and no top 100 prospects
-Oakland, and Pirates havent rebounded and are still rebuilding
-Cubs, Mets, Nats and Giants are a mess or still in the middle
-Cleveland and Minny are only relevant because of the division they play in
Since 2020, I'm taking the Jays over the Yankees and Red Sox now and in the future.
Only team that has been demonstrably better is the Dodgers and Astros. Arguably the Cards though the Jays have more wins from 2020 to now than them and their playoff records are identical;
Cardinals: 284-260 (playoffs: 1-5)
Jays: 304-242 (playoffs 0-6)
The Jays have been consistently playing in the 3rd gear which is good comparing what these other teams did but they need to get into that 4th gear to win a division and 5th gear to win some playoff rounds. This front office has done a great job building this team back up but havent been able to put the finishing touches on it. I really appreciate their work when comparing it to past regimes but it might be time for a different look from atop but we know that isnt coming.
phillipmike
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Knowing the Rangers playoff history and how lucky Arizona has been this year, Diamondbacks are winning the WS in 7 in dramatic fashion which will devastate the Rangers and their fan base.
Offseason questions for eliminated teams: What's next for D-backs after World Series defeat?
From the wild-card round through the World Series, here's what should be on the offseason to-do list for every squad as its October run ends.
Toronto Blue Jays
Eliminated by: Minnesota Twins in AL wild-card round
Key free agents: 3B Matt Chapman, CF Kevin Kiermaier, DH Brandon Belt, LHP Hyun-jin Ryu, LF/2B Whit Merrifield ($18 million mutual option)
Biggest offseason priority: After finishing eighth in the AL in runs, the Blue Jays will not only have to figure out how to score more runs in 2024 but also reconfigure their entire lineup with several key position-player free agents. Chapman didn't do much damage after hitting .384 in April (he hit .202 or worse in four of the next five months), Merrifield's option is too high to pick up, and if the Jays let Kiermaier walk, they can slide Daulton Varsho to center on a full-time basis. Toronto scored 100 fewer runs than it did in 2021, and getting that year's version of Vladimir Guerrero Jr. back will help -- but that's hardly the only solution.
Under-the-radar priority to watch: How will the Blue Jays pour money back into the roster? Chapman, Ryu, Belt and Kiermaier made a combined $50.8 million in 2023. Some of that will go to in-house raises (Bo Bichette's salary will go up nearly $8 million), and there is still some flexibility to add some firepower, either in free agency (which is somewhat limited) or in trade. Indeed, they might have to consider trading from their rotation depth for position player help. But after running a payroll $50 million-$60 million higher than 2022 and not getting any better results for it, maybe ownership balks at matching 2023's club-record payroll.
Can the Blue Jays count on Alek Manoah for 2024? The rotation was excellent even as the 2022 All-Star and 2023 Opening Day starter cratered to a 5.87 ERA, but the Jays probably shouldn't count on getting 31-plus starts again from Kevin Gausman, Jose Berrios, Chris Bassitt and Yusei Kikuchi. If Manoah can re-find himself and if prospect Ricky Tiedemann is ready, the Jays can once again have one of the best rotations in the majors.
Offseason prediction: I think they'll try to re-sign Belt -- he had a productive year at DH -- but Chapman's fade probably means they let him walk, even though there isn't a clear solution in free agency. The most intriguing scenario would be to trade a starting pitcher, but that would put a lot of faith in Manoah that he probably won't be able to earn until the Jays see him in spring training.
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