Blue Jays Discussion: The official Davis Schneider Appreciation Society

[Bjindaho]

When you trade one of the top 5 prospects in baseball and don't even get a 'win' out of the trade in year 1 of it.. Gabby Moreno is going to continually get better.. Varsho is what he is.

The trade sucks, it's going to go down as one of the worst trades in Jay's history and they deserve to be f***ing panned for it. They kept a fat guy at catcher who turns singles into outs and got a mediocre bat with good defense that they put in the f***ing corner.

This trade will NEVER touch the RA Dickey deal

Edit: That trade was Dickey, Thole, and Nickeas (a middle of the rotation starter who magically won the Cy Young once, a poor backup catcher who could catch a knuckleball, and a nothingburger prospect) for D'Arnaud (top catching prospect in baseball), Syndergaard (one of the Jays big 3 pitching prospects), Buck (a superior backup catcher to Thole, but couldn't catch a knuckleball), and Becerra (also, a nothingburger prospect).

While Thor had no second pitch at the time, he had a better fastball than Romano at the time.

 

[WeThreeKings]

This trade will NEVER touch the RA Dickey deal

Edit: That trade was Dickey, Thole, and Nickeas (a middle of the rotation starter who magically won the Cy Young once, a poor backup catcher who could catch a knuckleball, and a nothingburger prospect) for D'Arnaud (top catching prospect in baseball), Syndergaard (one of the Jays big 3 pitching prospects), Buck (a superior backup catcher to Thole, but couldn't catch a knuckleball), and Becerra (also, a nothingburger prospect).

While Thor had no second pitch at the time, he had a better fastball than Romano at the time.

Another trade I immediately hated.. super high on Syndergaard.. didn't like Dickey at all.

 

[Bjindaho]

Another trade I immediately hated.. super high on Syndergaard.. didn't like Dickey at all.

We might lose the Varsho trade, but it isn't as horribly one-sided as the Dickey deal. We basically expected a #3 starter, a poor backup catcher and a nothing prospect as the return. While D'Arnaud and Thor had warts, D'Arnaud was ready to make a bigger MLB impact than Thole at the time and Thor was seen as a guy who could move quickly because of his fastball (his downside was elite closer with an upside well above Dickey with even a mediocre 2nd pitch).

The Varsho deal sucks because Moreno's defensive value would be nice to have. Couple that with concerns about how long Kirk will be able to catch and you have all the reasons why I was hoping we'd move Kirk and accept less than a Varsho. On the other hand, the Blue Jays are very good at developing catchers. There is a real chance that the Jays have another catcher ready by the time that they need one. Varsho is a starting calibre outfielder in a down year, who if he could ever put it together at the plate, is near MVP candidate calibre.

Gurriel is a nothing in that trade. As much as people want to lament him, he was moved because he can't play the outfield in the new Skydome, he made too much for our salary structure, and because management decided to kill all of the fun (not surprisingly to the detriment of the team).

The issue isn't even the trade per se. It is the whole picture.

If you trade Moreno+Gurriel for Varsho and you sign one of the many targets we were supposedly after, we probably aren't talking about this. Opening up the payroll to use the money on Belt and Kiermeier kinda defeats the whole point of opening up the money.

Which brings us to this offseason. The best OF on the market are...Gurriel and Hernandez?

You have to look beyond your nose if you want to see what is in front of you. Our optimal outfield is _ - Varsho - Springer, where in a perfect world, we would have some kind of outfield prospect who could actually move in there (our last OF prospect was Hernandez, FWIW), but we draft positionless players so we have no OF prospects of note.

On the infield, we have multiple 3B options who are close to contributing, with Bichette, Schneider/Biggio/Espinal/Clement and Guerrero capable of playing the rest of the infield and Jansen/Kirk behind the plate.

We could add a DH and a LF, but both of those should have existed in house.

 

[Bjindaho]

If you look at the roster from the playoff series we had:
2 relievers that were developed by the Jays
1 outfielder developed by the Jays (who was only on the roster for speed)
4 infielders developed by the Jays (2 of whom were Guerrero and Bichette)
Kirk

The thing is that the 2 relievers that the Jays have are the only two in house relievers in a while because the organization have undervalued velocity. There were 0 starters on the roster at the end of the year developed by the Jays and the closest starter is probably Tiedemann (I'm not sure Manoah ever pitches in the bigs for Toronto again). Infielders seems to slowly be coming along for the Jays, but there was a period of little development there.

The outfielder is a minor leaguer who runs fast. The closest outfielder to actually being a part of the Jays IMO is Roden.

The two guys missing from the list were Clement and Lukes who also came from other organizations.

When you look at the Boston and NY model, it is develop prospects to get some kind of value (or acquire cheap players who are close to fitting this spot) then spend your money on the actual holes that you care about.

Teams are getting less and less enamored with trading with Toronto because of the lack of graduating prospects. Basically, Toronto has graduated a bunch of catchers, then the track record falls off at nearly every other position. When you trade all of the prospects at their peak (like AA did), it is irrelevant because you are still getting value out of them, but when it is time to pay the pied piper (Atkins has few trade avenues because of the Jays fleecing so many teams), the options are limited.

 

[shaner8989]

But but remember.. Varsho.. he can he can catch a fly ball…. And and he can round second base fast….. and and…. f***

What a f***ing disgrace. I ripped the trade from day 1 and it’s way worse then I thought it would be.

Fire everyone

 

[TheTotalPackage]

The trade was almost a year ago. Get over it. There's going to be trades that turn out well and trades that don't. Sitting around complaining about those that don't accomplishes nothing.

But trades like that are what can set a franchise back years.

Complaining about anything in life accomplishes nothing. But we all still do it. In these terms, that's what being a fan is all about.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Gotta respect Atkins for proving the doubters wrong. No one thought he could build a team that would make the World Series and he totally has.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Torey Lovullo has the John Farrell stench all over him, but congrats to him for getting the Diamondbacks to the World Series.

He somehow survived in the job after losing 110 games in 2021. Look where he is now.

 

[phillipmike]

That trade is as hard to swallow as spoiled milk

This is a weird flex. Moreno and Gurriel had 7 games and the Jays had 2.

Moreno and Gurriel in NLCS: 15 hits in 54 ABs.
Jays: 15 hits in 66 ABs.

Its a small sample size vs an even smaller one.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Shatkins and Shitpiro need to go.

Incredible what we had in 2021. Siemien wanted to be here.

Will be very bittersweet seeing Siemien or LGJ/Moreno win it. They should be Jays.

The Moreno trade will be brought up in historically bad trade discussions in 5 years. I doubt Jansen or Kirk will even be Jays, while Moreno will be in MVP talks.

 

[weems]

The front office really needs to have a huge offseason because this past season was extremely underwhelming and it's sad that one of ARZ / TEX will win a ship when our core hasn't even won a single playoff game to this point.

 

[jiggy35]

What are the realistic moves Jays can make to improve the roster?

 

[MK78]

What are the realistic moves Jays can make to improve the roster?

They need a legit home run hitter, and they need a fresh voice to fix the guys that are here. Vladdy, Springer, Kirk, Varsho. Those are the guys that were expected to provide the bulk of the offense, and they failed miserably especially home runs.

Home runs win series. it's been clearly demonstrated in these playoffs.

 

[Brown Dog]

What are the realistic moves Jays can make to improve the roster?

Sadly, I don't have a lot of optimism. It's a roster of Bichette plus a bunch of JAGs, a rotation and bullpen that overachieved and is likely in for a regression, and a front office that is not capable of making bold moves without barfing all over themselves.

 

[Puckstuff]

Gotta respect Atkins for proving the doubters wrong. No one thought he could build a team that would make the World Series and he totally has.

Once humans are in abundance of something they always **** themselves. Have 3 good catchers? Solution: gotta give the best one away!

 

[jiggy35]

They need a legit home run hitter, and they need a fresh voice to fix the guys that are here. Vladdy, Springer, Kirk, Varsho. Those are the guys that were expected to provide the bulk of the offense, and they failed miserably especially home runs.

Home runs win series. it's been clearly demonstrated in these playoffs.

I agree, I think it’s still a solid roster with great pitching. Needs a dynamite slugger which would also loosen the focus on Bichette + Vladdy. Just doesn’t seem to be one available. Maybe Soto and Vladdy are good friends…

Cutting ties with Chapman, Keiermeir, Jansen, maybe Merrifield and allocating that cash to a slugger OF would be ideal while promoting Horwitz/Heineman/Schneider.

Soto/Bellinger/? - Varsho - Springer OF sounds good.

Vladdy/Bichette/Merrifield(/FA)/Schneider/Horwitz sounds good enough.

 

[Nick034]

Sadly, I don't have a lot of optimism. It's a roster of Bichette plus a bunch of JAGs, a rotation and bullpen that overachieved and is likely in for a regression, and a front office that is not capable of making bold moves without barfing all over.

Why do you think the bold is going to happen? KG, JB and CB were good for the last few years, well JB had a one year hiccup, and AM can be better we all know that, so that leaves YK to see if he can repeat.

 

[Nineteen67]

They’ll sign a few platoon players and market the heck out of them - what are they at now - “Nextest Level” ?

 

[Anthrax442]

Face it - the top stars wont sign here, best way to get the players is to home grow them or trade. Something that this management failed to do. This was their mandate.

 

[WeThreeKings]

What are the realistic moves Jays can make to improve the roster?

Trade Tiedemann for an inconsistent bat and defense in center-field, then stick him in left.

 

[Bjindaho]

What are the realistic moves Jays can make to improve the roster?

That's a tough question.

I'd qualify Chapman and hope he signs elsewhere. I would promote Orelvis to play 3B.

For DH, I would see if JD Martinez would take the same 10M he played for last year (obviously, I'd offer Ohtani a ridiculous amount of money, but I think he's Dodger-bound).

For LF, we need a trade. We could acquire a guy like Soto (knowing that it would be expensive), or we could try to swing bigger and go after someone like Richie Palacios in STL in the hopes that you can go after a depth piece that might be more in TO.

I'm not banking anything on Manoah pitching, but I would be perfectly open to bringing back Ryu on a shorter term deal.

For the BP, I think the Jays need to look at bringing back Hicks and picking up Green's option.

 

[thehockeysong]

Face it - the top stars wont sign here, best way to get the players is to home grow them or trade. Something that this management failed to do. This was their mandate.

This same front office signed Ryu and Springer in back to back offseasons. So clearly they'll sign here.

 

[Suntouchable13]

This same front office signed Ryu and Springer in back to back offseasons. So clearly they'll sign here.

And Gausman, who is clearly a star also. One of the best pitchers in the game.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Once humans are in abundance of something they always **** themselves. Have 3 good catchers? Solution: gotta give the best one away!

Reminds me a bit of the late 90s when our team was deep with middle infielders. We had Alex Gonzalez at short, Homer Bush at second, and Felipe Lopez, Izturis, and Joe Lawrence in the system. Trading from that depth allowed us to get 2.5 years of future drug dealer Esteban Loaiza. The player we deemed expendable? 7-time All Star Michael Young.

 

[Suntouchable13]

The thing is, things can change in 1 year. Next season, Varsho figures out this hitting thing and he instantly becomes a stud. A 5 tool player. He has everything, he just needs to figure out hitting. I am sure he can do it. He is clearly a very talented athlete.