Blue Jays Discussion: The official Davis Schneider Appreciation Society

[TheMadHatTrick]

Do we bring back Manoah after he quit on the team or move him in a challenge trade for another player that needs a change of scenery?

 

[Bjindaho]

Do we bring back Manoah after he quit on the team or move him in a challenge trade for another player that needs a change of scenery?

Is there another Monoah out there? I don't think Manoah needs a change of scenery, per se. If there is no value for him, he comes back, but I wouldn't guarantee him an MLB roster spot.

 

[Hellcat]

We might lose the Varsho trade, but it isn't as horribly one-sided as the Dickey deal. We basically expected a #3 starter, a poor backup catcher and a nothing prospect as the return. While D'Arnaud and Thor had warts, D'Arnaud was ready to make a bigger MLB impact than Thole at the time and Thor was seen as a guy who could move quickly because of his fastball (his downside was elite closer with an upside well above Dickey with even a mediocre 2nd pitch).

The Varsho deal sucks because Moreno's defensive value would be nice to have. Couple that with concerns about how long Kirk will be able to catch and you have all the reasons why I was hoping we'd move Kirk and accept less than a Varsho. On the other hand, the Blue Jays are very good at developing catchers. There is a real chance that the Jays have another catcher ready by the time that they need one. Varsho is a starting calibre outfielder in a down year, who if he could ever put it together at the plate, is near MVP candidate calibre.

Gurriel is a nothing in that trade. As much as people want to lament him, he was moved because he can't play the outfield in the new Skydome, he made too much for our salary structure, and because management decided to kill all of the fun (not surprisingly to the detriment of the team).

The issue isn't even the trade per se. It is the whole picture.

If you trade Moreno+Gurriel for Varsho and you sign one of the many targets we were supposedly after, we probably aren't talking about this. Opening up the payroll to use the money on Belt and Kiermeier kinda defeats the whole point of opening up the money.

Which brings us to this offseason. The best OF on the market are...Gurriel and Hernandez?

You have to look beyond your nose if you want to see what is in front of you. Our optimal outfield is _ - Varsho - Springer, where in a perfect world, we would have some kind of outfield prospect who could actually move in there (our last OF prospect was Hernandez, FWIW), but we draft positionless players so we have no OF prospects of note.

On the infield, we have multiple 3B options who are close to contributing, with Bichette, Schneider/Biggio/Espinal/Clement and Guerrero capable of playing the rest of the infield and Jansen/Kirk behind the plate.

We could add a DH and a LF, but both of those should have existed in house.

Good post. Isn't Varsho expected to be a 4 WAR player and Jr/Moreno supposed to be around 2 WAR players each? With that said I didn't like the trade, Jr alone for Varsho should have got the deal done.

 

[Hellcat]

Do we bring back Manoah after he quit on the team or move him in a challenge trade for another player that needs a change of scenery?

Depends if he figures out WTF is wrong. He's a hot head, that is OK if you are a Cy Young candidate, it's not OK if you are a AAA pitcher who quit on the team. He is one of a very few players that I could not understand why he was so effective to begin with. When he had that great year I was wondering why is he so good? When he stunk it up last season, TBH I was not surprised.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Free agents I would target for the Jays:

Candelario
Yamamoto
Jung-Hoo
Hayward
Kiermaier
Bellinger
Hader
Bell
Teo
Gurriel

 

[kb]

Good post. Isn't Varsho expected to be a 4 WAR player and Jr/Moreno supposed to be around 2 WAR players each? With that said I didn't like the trade, Jr alone for Varsho should have got the deal done.

Varsho for Gurriel should have got it done?

I fully understand you don't know the first thing about player evaluation, but come on....

 

[shortfuze]

When you trade one of the top 5 prospects in baseball and don't even get a 'win' out of the trade in year 1 of it.. Gabby Moreno is going to continually get better.. Varsho is what he is.

The trade sucks, it's going to go down as one of the worst trades in Jay's history and they deserve to be f***ing panned for it. They kept a fat guy at catcher who turns singles into outs and got a mediocre bat with good defense that they put in the f***ing corner.

Just curious. A 23 year old Moreno will only get better but a 27 year old Varsho can’t?

 

[GoonieFace]

Just curious. A 23 year old Moreno will only get better but a 27 year old Varsho can’t?

Yes, and never in the history of baseball has a young player who started his career well ended up being a bust

 

[tmlfan98]

What are the realistic moves Jays can make to improve the roster?

BNS went wild coming up with a bunch of hypothetical offseason scenarios, half of them being "plausible" (according to him). Some here might find this worth a read.

 

[Dr.Funk]

I feel dirty agreeing with Wilner. Defensive Runs Saved is literally in there bio and the guy with the best DRS doesn't win anything

 

[Anthrax442]

This same front office signed Ryu and Springer in back to back offseasons. So clearly they'll sign here.

they are not top stars.

 

[GoonieFace]

they are not top stars.

They were literally the at the top of free agent lists available that year, Gausman as well. But keep whining

 

[Ale Brew]

Varsho for Gurriel should have got it done?

I fully understand you don't know the first thing about player evaluation, but come on....

Seriously…Jr was a throw in heading to UFA status…cleared salary for us and a spot in the lineup for Varsho

 

[MK78]

Do we bring back Manoah after he quit on the team or move him in a challenge trade for another player that needs a change of scenery?

Even if he doesnt pitch for the team next year, it will be a good idea for him to regain some form in the minors, maybe warrant a calllup for an injury etc.

Getting rid of him in the off season doesnt make sense as he makes peanuts and has no arb rights yet, and you would be trading him at his lowest possible value - given what he was able to accomplish in 2021/22 there is some upside, if he can get back to some level of that performance, even if he doesnt wanna stay here, his value would be higher.

 

[dredeye]

I feel dirty agreeing with Wilner. Defensive Runs Saved is literally in there bio and the guy with the best DRS doesn't win anything

It’s ridiculous for him not to have won anything

 

[Hellcat]

Varsho for Gurriel should have got it done?

I fully understand you don't know the first thing about player evaluation, but come on....

Based on your toxic posting history, I strongly doubt there is much you fully understand..

 

[Nineteen67]

Based on your toxic posting history, I strongly doubt there is much you fully understand..

I dont remember the exact trade, but from I‘d rather watch Varsho play than Gurriel. Varsho is not great player but he plays the right way.

 

[Bjindaho]

I feel dirty agreeing with Wilner. Defensive Runs Saved is literally in there bio and the guy with the best DRS doesn't win anything

He doesn't win LF because of Kwan, he doesn't win CF because he doesn't qualify as a CF, and from what I have seen, most places don't qualify multiple outfield positions as UTIL (you seem to have to play the infield to qualify). It shouldn't shock anyone if the best defensive outfielder in baseball ends up not winning a gold glove this year for the same reason.

 

[Bjindaho]

BNS went wild coming up with a bunch of hypothetical offseason scenarios, half of them being "plausible" (according to him). Some here might find this worth a read.

I am not a BNS fan at all. IMO, he would be at best an average poster on this board in terms of his "scenarios". He has access to information that we do not, but he has these ideas that aren't always based on reality.

I would 100% be on board with offering Yamamoto something like 5x20 as a means of trying to buy a top end starter cheap. I'm getting sick of "controlled costs" getting in the way of signing international players and having it bite the Jays.

 

[thehockeysong]

they are not top stars.

Is Gausman? He obviously is, he's a perrenial cy young candidate. He came here.

 

[LaP]

I dont remember the exact trade, but from I‘d rather watch Varsho play than Gurriel. Varsho is not great player but he plays the right way.

Dunno i think Varsho is a very frustrating player to watch at bat. He has a lot of trouble making good contact with the ball when facing good pitchers.

 

[Nineteen67]

Dunno i think Varsho is a very frustrating player to watch at bat. He has a lot of trouble making good contact with the ball when facing good pitchers.

He can’t hit, but he hustles and puts in an effort. Compare that with guys like Kirk that are hideously bad and physically incapable of running the bases.

 

[TGB]

Not sure why so many think it's unlikely the Jays will throw money around. Why not just sign Bellinger for what he wants and Chapman what he wants and what have you?

Here's the thing: the Jays competitive window only has 2 years left in it. In about 3 years, the ENTIRE rotation will be gone except for Bassit and Manoah, Bichette, Vladdy, and Jansen will also be conceivably gone.

As all of these rotation pieces will be pushing into their mid-30s by then, that's probably not a bad thing, and Bassit having years left could be very valuable if he's still pitching well.

Jansen? I wasn't high on him but he's proven me wrong and he's exactly what the Jays need going forward, but history has routinely proven guys like him tend to take off come free agency. Frankly, if the Jays didn't need him so much, I'd suggest trading him. Give him what he wants. Bichette? I see all the signs of a guy that wants to leave, but at least he has 2 years left. Same with Vladdy, except it looks more like the front office is just sick of his immaturity.

Do you want to give up these guys? No, of course not, so what's the point of just giving them the money they want? Because in case our core decides they all want to leave, you now have a bunch of valuable pieces left over for trades. So, yes, give Bellinger and the like what they want. In a couple years when our competitive window closes, and everyone wants to go, the Jays will be able to rapidly rebuild. The Jays actually have quite a bit of money ($80 mil according to one, although I think it's more like $60 after arbitration deals), so they can afford it, and I'm pretty sure they have also realized they can just trade everyone in a couple years if need be.

 

[Kurtz]

Looking more and more like Soto will be moved.

Padres need a 1B - would you guys trade Vlad for Soto and then lock Soto up?

Or would you move a Ricky Tiedemann package for him?

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Looking more and more like Soto will be moved.

Padres need a 1B - would you guys trade Vlad for Soto and then lock Soto up?

Or would you move a Ricky Tiedemann package for him?

I’d move Vlad for him.