The New and really Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[Stephen]

My point was that the lousy team under Ballard was planned by him for financial reasons. The lousy Leaf team under current ownership is just a waste of a lot of money with the same result. I respect Ballard a lot more than the current ownership.

Ballard's a funnier villain/heel story we can kind of chuckle at from a comfortable historical distance. Old school mom and pop bad guy doing cheap grubby things.

This era feels a little more like a tragic waste of potential. Corporation puts in the resources, embraces the total rebuild, hits on a star studded core group. Bring in a hometown hero. And the wheels seem to fall off.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Correct. But if he was pissed off enough/ willing to go to market and framing his value as what he could get there/ less than what McDavid is worth rather than lass than Mcdavid signed for than theres only two choices to be made.

Is he bluffing
Is he right

Dubas obviously assessed it as no/yes. That Matthews would hold to his demands, and he would get what he wanted via offersheet. And we'll never know if he was right or wrong with that assessment.

But either way( circling back to the orignal point) JT's contract played no role im the negotiation for Matthews side

Then if another team gives him an offer sheet, you either match the deal, or you take the 4 first round draft picks and move on.

Out of curiosity, how many teams do you think—at the time of his signing— would have been willing, or capable of giving Matthews 12 or 13 million over 5 years, with most of the money being front loaded, and also give up 4 first round draft picks in a salary cap era?

You seem to be framing the Matthews deal as if he was a UFA, he wasn’t.

And he also hadn’t proved himself to the degree he has now.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

My point was that the lousy team under Ballard was planned by him for financial reasons. The lousy Leaf team under current ownership is just a waste of a lot of money with the same result. I respect Ballard a lot more than the current ownership.

Ballard would have made more money had the Leafs won.

He had a short sighted and narrow view of what winning would have done for his bottom line.

He unfortunately managed the team from one column on his financial statements, the expense column and could never get past it.

He didn’t understand how or that he could grow the revenue aspect of his business much faster than his expense column, which would have made him more money, not to mention what it would have done for the overall value of the team.

 

[4thline]

Then if another team gives him an offer sheet, you either match the deal, or you take the 5 first round draft picks and move on.

Out of curiosity, how many teams do you think—at the time of his signing— would have been willing, or capable of giving Matthews 12 or 13 million over 5 years, with most of the money being front loaded, and also give up 5 first round draft picks in a salary cap era?

You seem to be framing the Matthews deal as if he was a UFA, he wasn’t.

And he also hadn’t proved himself to the degree he has now.

I dont think anyone would have given him 12 or 13 by 5. But i think pretty much everyone with the need would have gone higher than 11 x8

 

[egd27]

Out of curiosity, how many teams do you think—at the time of his signing— would have been willing, or capable of giving Matthews 12 or 13 million over 5 years, with most of the money being front loaded, and also give up 5 first round draft picks in a salary cap era?

Exactly, plus it would have to be a market he was willing to go to. At that point, things still looked promising here.

 

[egd27]

I dont think anyone would have given him 12 or 13 by 5. But i think pretty much everyone with the need would have gone higher than 11 x8

Ok.....well wouldn't 12 X 8 or even 12.5 X 8 have been better than 11 X 5?

 

[Stamkos4life]

Ok.....well wouldn't 12 X 8 or even 12.5 X 8 have been better than 11 X 5?

11.34 x 5 is a better contract than 12.5 x 8. Dubas did just about as badly as he possibly could while giving Auston basically everything.

 

[egd27]

11.34 x 5 is a better contract than 12.5 x 8. Dubas did just about as badly as he possibly could while giving Auston basically everything.

Fine, so then you agree it would be very unlikely for a team to offer sheet 12.5 X 8 PLUS 4 first rounders?

 

[killer1980]

I, for one, am very glad he'll be gone in 3 years. The Yotes can have hime and his holier than thou attitude.

 

[Stephen]

11.34 x 5 is a better contract than 12.5 x 8. Dubas did just about as badly as he possibly could while giving Auston basically everything.

I think the full 8 year term would have been better even with the higher cap hit. We'd still have another 6 years to get this right instead of a small window of 2 years plus the NTC kicking in.

 

[kevsh]

So can we just cut to the chase?

Which coaches and GMs are currently out of work that would be a good fit in Toronto? Even better, which currently employed coaches and GMs that can be pried away from their teams would be a good fit?

Despite knowing they'll be signing onto 24/7 stress and massive expectations in a hockey-obsessed market suffering through a 50+ year Cup drought, as well as almost guaranteed to be fired in 3-4 years when they too fail, you just know there are plenty of coaches and GMs who would take the job in heartbeat.

 

[Carltons Cup]

When Dubie gets canned, does he have to turn in his company provided laptop?

I'm sure it contains all those fancy stats that says we're paper tigers.

Burn those fancy stats to the ground. Nothing will ever beat the eye test.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Mcdavid makes 4 mil a year more dude.

Come the f*** on.

He may have made a bit less of a percentage then Sid did when he signed but Sid is also on 12 years and has multiple cups

If I recall correctly, Chiapet gave him a blank check and McDavid told them no more than what he got was needed. I know it's not exactly a deal...but Edmonton doesn't have the cap issues we have because they actually have some form of structure...McDavid, Leon and then everybody else lines up behind. We are all over the place and AM was supposedly giving us a deal by 'only' going 5yrs because 13m+ over 8yrs was too much for our cap. It makes me sick...

 

[Brobust]

So can we just cut to the chase?

Which coaches and GMs are currently out of work that would be a good fit in Toronto? Even better, which currently employed coaches and GMs that can be pried away from their teams would be a good fit?

Despite knowing they'll be signing onto 24/7 stress and massive expectations in a hockey-obsessed market suffering through a 50+ year Cup drought, as well as almost guaranteed to be fired in 3-4 years when they too fail, you just know there are plenty of coaches and GMs who would take the job in heartbeat.

Leafs need to do something like in Carolina. A puppet for the phone calls and an aggressive analytics department behind the scenes.

I would make Mike Gillis GM and make Eric Joyce/Brandon Pridham the behind the scenes co-GMs.

 

[rocketman588]

If I recall correctly, Chiapet gave him a blank check and McDavid told them no more than what he got was needed. I know it's not exactly a deal...but Edmonton doesn't have the cap issues we have because they actually have some form of structure...McDavid, Leon and then everybody else lines up behind. We are all over the place and AM was supposedly giving us a deal by 'only' going 5yrs because 13m+ over 8yrs was too much for our cap. It makes me sick...

Also mcdavid is significantly better then Matthews

 

[rocketman588]

Leafs need to do something like in Carolina. A puppet for the phone calls and an aggressive analytics department behind the scenes.

I would make Mike Gillis GM and make Eric Joyce/Brandon Pridham the behind the scenes co-GMs.

They also do analytics to find players within the coaches system.

Dubas is a slave to his Numbers. Analytics are just a piece to the puzzle the canes get it Dubas does not.

It's why he was openly screwing Babcock with players that didn't fit him at all and cut his backup because the analytics said they weren't important.

The canes also use those numbers to squeeze negotiations.

Dubas finds numbers to feed his boys extra cash

 

[LegChairGM]

Gorton >>>> Dubas

Not sure what the hold up is.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Gorton >>>> Dubas

Not sure what the hold up is.

He got fired because the owner had a problem with something other than his performance in drafting etc. I can't recall what it was...but they said the rebuild is taking too long...but that was just BS. He was pissed about something else.

 

[Brobust]

They also do analytics to find players within the coaches system.

Dubas is a slave to his Numbers. Analytics are just a piece to the puzzle the canes get it Dubas does not.

It's why he was openly screwing Babcock with players that didn't fit him at all and cut his backup because the analytics said they weren't important.

The canes also use those numbers to squeeze negotiations.

Dubas finds numbers to feed his boys extra cash

I don't know how Dubas uses analytics.

He is guilty of being overly conservative though.

 

[capfit9]

Precise & Concise

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I think the full 8 year term would have been better even with the higher cap hit. We'd still have another 6 years to get this right instead of a small window of 2 years plus the NTC kicking in.

That to me is the total killer in this deal...the NMC in the final year of his stupid 5yr deal. Had he given him the same deal sans the NMC...I would at least think we could trade him if it looked like he might walk. We are due for some bad karma for getting JT and I can't help but think he is off to the NYR or LA when he gets a chance. He thinks of himself as a fashion trend setter type...what better place to play than NY or LA?

 

[Stephen]

That to me is the total killer in this deal...the NMC in the final year of his stupid 5yr deal. Had he given him the same deal sans the NMC...I would at least think we could trade him if it looked like he might walk. We are due for some bad karma for getting JT and I can't help but think he is off to the NYR or LA when he gets a chance. He thinks of himself as a fashion trend setter type...what better place to play than NY or LA?

If the JT91 signing shows us anything, going mercenary to the highest bidder isn’t necessarily the best legacy move for a franchise player in hockey, especially if you’re a guy who doesn’t deliver in the big moments and you go somewhere and under deliver on a big ticket.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

I dont think anyone would have given him 12 or 13 by 5. But i think pretty much everyone with the need would have gone higher than 11 x8

But he didn’t even sign here for 8 years. He signed a deal that was exactly the term that took him to being a UFA. Do you think other teams would have paid him more for 5 years, with much of that money up front, plus given up 4 first round draft picks? And then after the picks are gone at that point he potentially walks as a UFA? Also, remember, this contract was signed at a different point in his development curve where he had proved much less than he has today.

If Dubas has signed him for 11X8 years that would have been a much more team friendly deal.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Ok.....well wouldn't 12 X 8 or even 12.5 X 8 have been better than 11 X 5?

Yes, exactly.

 

[Buds17]

Ok.....well wouldn't 12 X 8 or even 12.5 X 8 have been better than 11 X 5?

I'd say so. The downside to that unfortunately would have been making the cap situation even tighter and necessitating more cuts elsewhere for the present. They also would have had to exceed 12.5 M per IIRC. Ideally though, if the intention is to give him the most player friendly contract in the league, then at least do it the right way by signing him for max term.