The New and really Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[DuklaNation]

Fire Dubas, you're better off hiring someone with basic negotiating experience. 30 yr olds from sales are probably better than him. People is mass denial about Dubas. WHY? Why did he get hired in the first place? This question needs a clear answer.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Auston wanted 13+ on an 8 year deal with a career high of 70 points.

McDavid signed for 12.5 x 8 after winning the art, heart and lindsay.

1. Why did matthews think he deserved more than mcdavid?

2. Why did matthews not care about leaving any money on the table to help the team?

3. Why did dubas give in?

If matthews signed for 11 x 8, marner wouldn't have gotten 10.9 x 6.

Just a terrible contract.

To be honest, it started with the JT signing. I loved it at the time, but in retrospect, that started the chain of events that led us to where we are today.

 

[fahad203]

Fire Dubas, you're better off hiring someone with basic negotiating experience. 30 yr olds from sales are probably better than him. People is mass denial about Dubas. WHY? Why did he get hired in the first place? This question needs a clear answer.

Same reason why JFJ was hired. When you have larger than life coaches you can't have larger than life GMs

He singlehandedly fcked up this team. His love affair with soft players is just annoying

He eventually got some tough players but only because he eventually realized that this is still a man's league. But even the players he did get, they can't skate or has a history with injuries

Entire management team feels like a bloody college coaching staff. Too green and too polished

Leafs have become the McDonald's of hockey. Everyone gets their first job here

 

[Trapper]

Cap is going up $1m next year and probably $1 for the following 2 years. The Tkachuks wanted a 3 year deal with the Sens with the thinking that the cap would be rising significantly in time for his next deal. Even so, you can't outspend your mistakes in a cap world. Sorry Kyle.

If it’s not the right core, it doesn’t matter what the Cap increase is.
Just because you put several talented individuals together doesn’t mean they are the end all.

Then if it isn’t the right core and they take up half the cap, you’ve got nothing in the trenches and a lack of blue collar identity.

Why can Pittsburgh survive until Crosby/Malkin/Letang/etc. are out? Hard working identity.

we need a high salary change to bring in 3/4 Kadri level talents and establish a playoff hard work/forecheck identity. Skill needs to have the blue collar edge. If you haven’t seen it by now, you never will.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

They used JT a season or two on the pk and he got tossed some votes because of it but he's never been good defensively .

JT has always been about himself and his production , sure he says the right things in the media but any time he went into any type of slump he would cheap even more .

Totz' system works if everyone buys into it , once one guy starts half assing it chasing points the system gets weaker and that combined with JT's cap hit is the reason there better off without him .

a player making 10m plus needs to do more than vulture around the net picking up points , they need to be able to control the flow of the play and JT has never been fast enough to be able to do this and that's why a team would be better off using his cap hit spread out in other areas of need

This is all speculation and doesn't prove he would have not bought in to Trotz' system. Nor does it prove that the whole team became way better defensively with him leaving. Remember when Ovi was all about himself and was clearly a one dimensional player? Ovi was always cheating the zone and dogging back checks. Trotz had dinner with him and he bought in. JT doesn't seem to have that diva personality.

Why was it that JT always seemed to carry guys like Moulson, Parenteau, Okposo, Lee etc. ? Guys who were all shooters.

 

[Bomber0104]

If it’s not the right core, it doesn’t matter what the Cap increase is.
Just because you put several talented individuals together doesn’t mean they are the end all.

Then if it isn’t the right core and they take up half the cap, you’ve got nothing in the trenches and a lack of blue collar identity.

Why can Pittsburgh survive until Crosby/Malkin/Letang/etc. are out? Hard working identity.

we need a high salary change to bring in 3/4 Kadri level talents and establish a playoff hard work/forecheck identity. Skill needs to have the blue collar edge. If you haven’t seen it by now, you never will.

Precisely.

High 1st round picks are essential building blocks in the salary-cap era NHL but you'd have to be pretty naive to think all of yours are perfect as-is and constitute the right mix.

Not only are ours not perfect and not the right mix but each and every one of them ended up being greedy pricks, more the willing to take advantage of a rookie GM.

Of course it probably didn't help bringing in an $11 million outsider and paying him first.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

He actually has zero history of successfully handling a long term contract negotation with a high end RFA forward in the cap era. Bridged Parise out of town to drastically overpay Zajac, bridged Barzal and Beauvillier. Also hasn't drafted one since Parise (except Matthews)

In the case of Marner...would you not have preferred a bridge deal? I know I would have because there is no way he is getting even close to 10.93 after his bridge deal expires let alone more than that.

Maybe Lou hasn't signed any RFA to a long contract because unless it's Auston...it's a gamble and too many times teams have done the big deal after the first 3 and regretted it.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

In the case of Marner...would you not have preferred a bridge deal? I know I would have because there is no way he is getting even close to 10.93 after his bridge deal expires let alone more than that.

Maybe Lou hasn't signed any RFA to a long contract because unless it's Auston...it's a gamble and too many times teams have done the big deal after the first 3 and regretted it.

Marner was demanding 9mil x 3 on a bridge deal and was willing to sit out for it.

Marner was demanding an unprecedented dramatic overpayment at every term offered.

 

[TMLAM34]

Dubas has definitely made mistakes when it comes to re-signing certain players. However he’s also done some good moves as well. The real knock on him is the fact he can’t see the issues early enough and move on from certain players and fix his mistakes.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Marner was demanding 9mil x 3 on a bridge deal and was willing to sit out for it.

Marner was demanding an unprecedented dramatic overpayment at every term offered.

So... Dubas just had to watch the Brayden Point's of the world sign reasonable deals and then tell Mitch to just sit. The fact that Dubas was so sure the 'landscape' had changed and said this was the case for RFA players was just so stupid. He fell for the schtick that Marner peddled and assumed Rantonen etc. would just sign the same stupid contracts. In the end it's Dubas who messed this up by caving in.

 

[93LEAFS]

In the case of Marner...would you not have preferred a bridge deal? I know I would have because there is no way he is getting even close to 10.93 after his bridge deal expires let alone more than that.

Maybe Lou hasn't signed any RFA to a long contract because unless it's Auston...it's a gamble and too many times teams have done the big deal after the first 3 and regretted it.

Marner would have signed 8X 8.5/9M in the summer of 2018, but Dubas wouldn't negotiate because he didn't want to set a precedent in the Nylander negotiations. That's a botch on Dubas. Would Marner have been slightly overpaid if he was given that deal based on his prior production? Yes. But, you probably should realise a GM if you give a great playmaking winger an 11M dollar center he's going to dramatically increase his points and the cost is only going to go dramatically up. And, this whole notion of blaming players for being seflish to ignore incompetent negotiating by the GM is ridiculous. Players should ask for as much as they can get, it's the job of the organization to get the price down.

 

[MarnerElite]

To be honest, it started with the JT signing. I loved it at the time, but in retrospect, that started the chain of events that led us to where we are today.

Pretty much came on here to say the same thing. I haven't posted in awhile and i only watch games once in awhile as i've lost interest(for the past 1 1/2 years roughly) but when i do watch it's same old issues and then i give up for about 10 games or so.

I honestly believe if we didn't have JT and kept players like Kapanen, Hyman, Trevor Moore(i watch other games too when i can and i love Moore's game which is similar to Hyman..speed, forecheck, ability to win battles, etc), we wouldn't be in such a big mess. They downgraded big time with Ritchie and some of these other players that either don't look ready or just aren't good enough. Amadio, Bunting, Kampf, Ritchie? Wtf...I'd much rather have the other players i mentioned above. Only Kase has looked kind of good...But yes i know...we couldn't afford them...which is why JT contract is shit as he honestly doesn't do enough to warrant it(being a good finisher alone shouldn't give you 11+ million).

What i liked from the Leafs several years back when they had Kappy, Hyman, Johnson, Moore, etc, was that speed and ability to forecheck and win battles(which most of those above can do) worked so well for us(and most good teams have this if you pay attention). Now we are slower(Ritchie, JT and few others are barely moving out there and when they do get pucks, they screw up badly...very little in terms of vision and ability to make plays).

Dubas got a very good team and is basically destroying it...slowly but surely(this team aside from goalie position(Campbell moreso )is worse in comparison, no question about it). Overpayments were made to both Matthews and Marner(not by a lot but still) but i think JT was a huge mistake that made everything else(like signing those above) pretty much impossible. I saw someone else post this and i agree with it..Overall this group is very unlikeable. They lack drive, aggression, grit and so much that most fans love.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Dubas has definitely made mistakes when it comes to re-signing certain players. However he’s also done some good moves as well. The real knock on him is the fact he can’t see the issues early enough and move on from certain players and fix his mistakes.

100% correct...he has done some good things but at the same time he won't admit he made a mistake and correct it.

I am a fan of the LA Rams....they signed Jared Goff and Todd Gurley to stupidly expensive deals way too early(2yrs before they had to) and realized they messed up. The fact the Rams can admit they made a mistake and move on is one thing Dubas cannot do for some reason.

Doubling down constantly shows your myopia for what you are doing and Dubas is doing just that. We have not had a developmental goalie to be our 3rd because? We keep going back to Hutch when it's obvious he can't play in this league. It takes him forever to even realize he is making mistakes let alone address them and the back up goalie situation has been a problem since his first season as a GM.

 

[hamzarocks]

If the ship doesn't right itself for the leafs, dubas will be a top 3 all time worse leafs GM

Will be gladful if his scouting pics work out, he can come and work as a scout, but he is to under accomplished and emotional towards his own players that he rejects making moves to better the team.

The core 4 look like they will end up the biggest disappointment for a core in years. Just a terrible group to get attached to. Losers, all of them

 

[Apex Predator]

Auston wanted 13+ on an 8 year deal with a career high of 70 points.

McDavid signed for 12.5 x 8 after winning the art, heart and lindsay.

1. Why did matthews think he deserved more than mcdavid?

2. Why did matthews not care about leaving any money on the table to help the team?

3. Why did dubas give in?

If matthews signed for 11 x 8, marner wouldn't have gotten 10.9 x 6.

Just a terrible contract.

hindsight is 20/20 but to me all this points to where Matthews priorities were at. The fact that he came in thinking he was Mcdavid level at that point after just a 70 point season makes me shake my head. He wanted to take the leafs to the cleaners and good on him he did that.

 

[Stamkos4life]

To be honest, it started with the JT signing. I loved it at the time, but in retrospect, that started the chain of events that led us to where we are today.

I get that ufas cost more because anyone can sign them so they have all the leverage compared to rfa.

But yeah we really didn't need Tavares.

Strange how the islanders with JT couldn't make it past the first round. Now he's gone and they get to the semis.

JT joins us and we still can't get past the first round.

 

[Blowfish]

The most bizarre thing is there is nothing wrong with getting a guy like Tavares at the right time.

He's the LAST guy in the core thst should be signed if you're making it to the conference finals and you're trying to put your team over the edge and they needed a little more offense. Lol instead dubas the genius signs him first to a massive contract with no idea how things could play out

It all starts with this....Leafs could have been that young talented upcoming team but tried to short cut things.

It's this obvious and the entire NHL and it's fans know it!

 

[WillTheThrill]

If the ship doesn't right itself for the leafs, dubas will be a top 3 all time worse leafs GM

Will be gladful if his scouting pics work out, he can come and work as a scout, but he is to under accomplished and emotional towards his own players that he rejects making moves to better the team.

The core 4 look like they will end up the biggest disappointment for a core in years. Just a terrible group to get attached to. Losers, all of them

Not fair to include Willy in this. He’s gotten the most scrutiny out of all of them over the years and you know what he did? Shut everyone up with a huge playoff round last yr and a good start to this season.

 

[Stamkos4life]

hindsight is 20/20 but to me all this points to where Matthews priorities were at. The fact that he came in thinking he was Mcdavid level at that point after just a 70 point season makes me shake my head. He wanted to take the leafs to the cleaners and good on him he did that.

I agree.

It's hard to blame someone for trying to get as much money as they can, especially since athletes careers can end quickly with injuries.

But matthews got front loaded, singing bonuses, fairly short term, a nmc in the final year and made the 3rd highest paid player at 11.34 based on 70 points.

Why did dubas pay him that much?

We have 4 forwards taking up 50% of the cap. I have no idea how dubas thought that was a good idea.

 

[Apex Predator]

I agree.

It's hard to blame someone for trying to get as much money as they can, especially since athletes careers can end quickly with injuries.

But matthews got front loaded, singing bonuses, fairly short term, a nmc in the final year and made the 3rd highest paid player at 11.34 based on 70 points.

Why did dubas pay him that much?

We have 4 forwards taking up 50% of the cap. I have no idea how dubas thought that was a good idea.

He thought the cap was going to rise and then Covid happened! That’s fair you couldn’t predict that but you needed to pivot and break up that core once you found out the cap wasn’t going up.

 

[TheGreatOne11]

I can't help but think about all the lurkers from other boards that are just pissing themselves laughing at all these new threads that have popped up and how close we all are to the ledge lol.

I am happy it's truly seemed to turn a corner, the blind leafs faithful seem to be no more, we get upset and we take action instead of just going back to the status quo.

This will one day lead to a cup.

 

[rocketman588]

Its his own words in the Espn article. Big US born goal scoring C, they brought in Mcdavids agent, reason to do that would be to say that Connor left money on the table, were not doing that so his contract doesnt matter

Oh no not a US born center.

That really spikes his value in noted American market Toronto Ontario.

If this is what he went in with and Dubas bought it he's an even worse negotiator then previously thought.

I'm sure his agent is going to try to get an insane amount of money that's what they are there for.

Doesn't mean captain analytics needs to bend over for him.

Hilariously he let Nylander go to Sweden over like 500k as well which also partially caused all of this

 

[egd27]

He doesnt "have to" but it was obviously true. Mcdavid and crosby were both worth whatever they wanted, and mcd took notably less than crosby

And Matthews is neither McDavid or Crosby. He was better goal scorer but slighter poorer point producer than Jack 10 x 8 Eichel.

Dubas was and is in over his head. He may be smart but his inexperience has severely damaged this organization.

He should have been learning in a much smaller market before stepping onto the big stage.

 

[justashadowof]

Too early but if the winds of change start blowing the first move isn't the GM firing the coach or the president firing the GM, it's the board firing the president and replacing him with an interim president with experience running an NHL franchise. The novice president is the one who handed the reins to an over-confident individual with a hopelessly naive perspective on things like history, human nature, individual dispositions, team dynamics, loyalty, reciprocity, etc.

 

[rocketman588]

He doesnt "have to" but it was obviously true. Mcdavid and crosby were both worth whatever they wanted, and mcd took notably less than crosby

Mcdavid makes 4 mil a year more dude.

Come the f*** on.

He may have made a bit less of a percentage then Sid did when he signed but Sid is also on 12 years and has multiple cups