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Kessel4LadyByng
The main thing seperating him from other top six players is significant pp opportunity
The New and really Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread
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The main thing seperating him from other top six players is significant pp opportunity
Everyone who doesn't feel they have to defend the GM to the death could see that from miles away.
He is a Jack of all trade player, and one of those who teams usually overpaid if he wins a Cup with his team.
Theres a difference between spinning and addressing the issues. When Tampa beat Montreal, Did they do it because their 4 big stars (32 million+ worth) scored 10 points in 5 games or because their MVP goaltending and cheap depth came through?.....and did our team lose because our down to 3 big stars (29+ million worth) scored 19 points in 7 games or because our depth players failed to produce AND made catastrophic giveaways plus our goaltending was sub par in elimination games?
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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Wait what?
The ones "defending" dubas are the ones that saw this already.
It was the dubas critics that made the stink about "losing mccann".
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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Vs MTL:
Matthews/Marner/Tavares: 7gms, 1gls/9pts
Kucherov/Point/Stamkos: 5gms, 4gls/9pts
Nylander/Hyman/Foligno: 7gms, 6gls/10pts
Killorn/Cirelli/Palat: 5gms, 2gls/6pts
Kerfoot/Mikheyev/Galchenyuk: 7gms, 2gls/10pts
Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow: 5gms, 4gls/9pts
Spezza/Thornton/Simmonds: 7gms, 4gls/7pts
Johnson/Colton/Maroon: 5gms, 4gls/6pts
TOR Defense: 7gms, 5gls/11pts
TB Defense: 5gms, 3gls/12pts
TOR Goalie: .934
TB Goalie: .943
He's fake soft, which is worse than being soft. You're players boss, you don't need to try be their friends. He gave those rfa's way too much money, because he tried to play nice. Playing nice doesn't work in cruel business like NHL.
If I want some fake soft person to be my payroll I will hire him/her as a clown.
Kyle Dubas is entitled, smug and self righteous brat who ruined this organization. With help of his beloved pal James Mirtle. Dubas is way more suitable to mod reddit/politics than be Leafs GM.
You'd have to provide an extensive list of who would be interested in the job. Could you list everyone that would be interested in the job, for us to peruse.
Pretty good breakdown of the depth before both series started but considering Tavares didnt even play (I don't thing his less than 3 minutes on the ice warrant inclusion here), you have to adjust Toronto's depth:
Matthews/Marner/Nylander: 7gms, 6gls/17pts : Toronto's top forwards were exactly that in the series. Outscored Tampa's stars despite Matthews playing injured.
Kucherov/Point/Stamkos: 5gms, 4gls/9pts
Kerfoot/Hyman/Foligno: 7gms, 2gls/8pts : Context here is that Foligno was playing injured and only appeared in 4 games.
Killorn/Cirelli/Palat: 5gms, 2gls/6pts
Spezza/Mikheyev/Galchenyuk: 7gms, 4gls/9pts: Spezza was good butGally literally threw away a game while Tampas scored big goals to win games.
Gourde/Coleman/Goodrow: 5gms, 4gls/9pts
Engvall/Thornton/Simmonds: 7gms, 1gls/3pts: Tampa certainly better for depth production here again.
Johnson/Colton/Maroon: 5gms, 4gls/6pts
TOR Defense: 7gms, 5gls/11pts: Toronto losing their best playoff dman in game 6 may have hurt overall totals. Top 4 D played great otherwise. Depth D sucked.
TB Defense: 5gms, 3gls/12pts
TOR Goalie: .934 (.892 in 3 elimination games) : Threw in the context of goaltending in clutch games. May have made a difference?
TB Goalie: .943 (1.000% in 1 elimination game)
Do you think this is a fair breakdown of Toronto's Depth and their production?
Blowfish
Count down ...
Chia brought in a Chara in his prime and made some bold moves that included trades/signings like Savard, Horton, Kaberle, Chris Kelly, Paille, Peverley, Recchi....yes he made some bad moves in Boston but he also had very long successful career in Boston. To me he's a good GM for that reason. IMO Neely should have been let go the same year Chia was let go.
Racer88
Registered User
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2021 playoffs
Marner——— 4 assists
Matthews. 1 goal 4 assist
Nylander. 5 goals 3 assist
There is no doubt that Willy lived up to his contract and nobody is claiming he did not, but Marner and Matthews were way below what they are paid and we’re not very good in the 2021 playoffs
Jason Spezza 2 goals and 3 assist on a league minimum contract.
Please tell me again how great the two 11 million dollar guys were.
it is absolutely ludicrous to just blame the bottom half of the team for the choke job this year
If I get the time I may break it down to see how the scoring was distributed over the 7 games to see what the impact of The 3 top guys…….and Spezza points was
hey for fun let’s throw Kerfoots stats in 1 goal and 5 assists for 6 points alone…….better them Marner and Matthews in I’m betting less ice time.
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Was it the bottom half that gave game 5 away or the top half?
Was it the bottom half that gave away 6 away or the top half?
Was the softest goal of the series given up by Campbell not the turning point in game 7? (which matched up well with his Toskela level elimination game save%)
I can find room for criticism for the stars but if you have them anywhere near the top of the list, I don't know what you are talking about. While production wasnt up to par with where we expected, no stars had an easy time against Price. Nylander was the most successful player in the whole playoffs against Price and both Matthews and Marner individually outproduced: Point, Stamkos, Hedman, Stone, Marchessault, Ehlers, Scheifele, Dubois, Wheeler, etc. etc.
There were no trio of stars on a team that had more production against Price in the entire four rounds of the playoffs. This is literally true.....and with the Matthews line playing lockdown D, they were an obvious plus to the team.
We can talk about the PP.
We can talk about wanting more finish.
....but to blame them when the obvious scapegoats are right in front of us just seems like mad raving. If you want to get into money, Toronto's 3 29 million dollar stars outplayed, outworked and outperformed all 4 of Tampa's 32 million stars against Montreal...but Tampa's goaltending and depth really came through for them. You stick Vasy on this team and the series is over in 5. Book it. I also think the Leafs take it in 5 with a healthy team though too.
The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
- Sep 17, 2009
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ottomaddox
Registered User
I think the toughest thing about being a Leafs fan in recent times is watching GM after GM doing it wrong. Not that we as fans qualify as NHL Executives, but we see what recent GMs do and we know that it's destined to fail.
John Ferguson Jr.
Signed several key leafs to No Trade Clauses as it seemed that they were at the end of their usefulness. Traded 1st round picks/prospects for quick fix goalie solutions. Signed slow/big players after obstruction in the NHL was being cracked down on by refs.
Cliff Fletcher
Desperately trying to deal with JFJ's mess tried to revamp and compete on the fly. Many remember the not so great Steen/Carlo C for Stempniak trade.
B. Burke and limited time with Nonis
Going against his own advise, Burke tried to speed up a re-build by trading 2 x 1sts and a 2nd for Kessel, allowed Wilson to name Dion as captain and cornerstone for the franchise (labeling him a "horse/stud"). Nonis taking over after Burke's dismissal thought that TOR was a power forward away from going deep in the playoffs. Signs Clarkson to a terrible contract.
Dubas
Currently fans are going through the unknown wilderness of a top heavy forward group and a depleting prospect pool (trading 3 × 1st round picks with only Muzzin to show for it).
Why does the questionable management moves happen here of all places?
John Ferguson Jr.
Signed several key leafs to No Trade Clauses as it seemed that they were at the end of their usefulness. Traded 1st round picks/prospects for quick fix goalie solutions. Signed slow/big players after obstruction in the NHL was being cracked down on by refs.
Cliff Fletcher
Desperately trying to deal with JFJ's mess tried to revamp and compete on the fly. Many remember the not so great Steen/Carlo C for Stempniak trade.
B. Burke and limited time with Nonis
Going against his own advise, Burke tried to speed up a re-build by trading 2 x 1sts and a 2nd for Kessel, allowed Wilson to name Dion as captain and cornerstone for the franchise (labeling him a "horse/stud"). Nonis taking over after Burke's dismissal thought that TOR was a power forward away from going deep in the playoffs. Signs Clarkson to a terrible contract.
Dubas
Currently fans are going through the unknown wilderness of a top heavy forward group and a depleting prospect pool (trading 3 × 1st round picks with only Muzzin to show for it).
Why does the questionable management moves happen here of all places?
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Missing Lou and his bad contracts and trades?
All GM's have their bad moments but the Lou/Dubas era has been the most successful period for the Leafs in a decade and a half. JFJ-Nonis doesnt really compare.
ottomaddox
Registered User
No I don't agree. Thats why I didn't include him.
We are not in the future. It's hard to evaluate. It just feels like the same old stuff.
Captain Crunch
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- Mar 31, 2019
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So our big 4 would be 40+ million, which is obviously 8+ million more, and that could provide 1 or 2 more good supporting cast players, or an upgrade in net, don’t you think?
Racer88
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I used simple production stats to show that Marner and Matthews weren’t that great in the playoffs and that 3 much cheaper players were actually better.
As far as Tampa, who cares as we’re not playing them.
You made the original post showing how the leafs stacked up against Tampa then proceeded to say it was the bottom half of the roster that caused us to choke. I simply turned the comparison internally to show that based on simple production ( the point of your comparison list) that it’s not telling the entire story.
As far as the mistakes made by the lower half well of course that’s accurate but I would also question a 11 million dollar player like matthews and Marner having only 1 goal combined in a 7 game series.
I would also say that Marners lazy careless over the glass penalty at a critical time also had a large part in the Leafs downfall
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
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There's been this nurturing angle the Leafs have used on the Big 4 the past season when guys like Thornton, Simmonds and Bogosian were brought in to toughen them up, add strong voices and leaders to support them.
I think that backfires somewhat on them. Nothing wrong with adding help, but when you see the quality of help they can afford, fans look around at the complete lack of money and then the spotlight falls back on the core guys.
There is truth in what you are saying but Tampa has barely any more money than we do. They have been lucky enough to have an elite goalie that performs in the playoffs and stays healthy combined with finding the right depth players. They gambled on the wrong depth 3 years ago and had that playoff disaster with the same coach and core. It's the little things that matter. If Toronto hits better on their FA's this year and, more importantly, their goalkeeping comes through (maybe actually outperforming the other side for the first time in 2 decades), they will go on a deep run and maybe a cup.
DraftSchmaft
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- Jul 29, 2021
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Come on man if Marner and Matthews even get 1 more goal, the series is over in 5 games. They dropped the ball here.
Tampa went all 4 rounds so their story line is going to look a little different. But the main highlight is the top guys carried the team after you accumulate the total sum of the teams play.
Point was a no-show in the finals but he also scored 11 goals in 12 games leading up to the Habs series for example. Attrition in round 1 is not the same as attrition in round 3 or the finals. Something like Nylander-Kerfoot in round 1 might be enough by round 4 when everyone is half dead hence why you need to look at the bigger picture and not restrict it to rounds.
The total sum for the top guys on the Leafs is overall very poor compared to the teams that have won cups since Matthews entered the league. Blaming the depth is the wrong way to approach this. Depth is not going to win you the cup. Sure they can sneak in a win or 2 when the top guys take a game off but like I said the cup is 4 rounds and 16 wins......if the top guys don't carry you, you're not getting a cup.
Im just trying to look at the big picture.
I mean, not talking about player production at all, if Tampa had the injury issues and goaltending in elimination games the Leafs received, do they even make it out of the first round? If comparables like Stamkos, McDonaugh and Gourde are knocked out of the series and Kucherov is having trouble finishing due to a wrist that needs surgery while, at the same time, your goalie goes from making huge saves and .955% in big games to sub .900% and giving up softies AND the Panthers goalie is Price instead of Bobrovsky, do you best a hungry Panthers team?
These are "ifs" just like your if but the fact still remains that what happened this playoffs is that the big three players for the Leafs outperformed the top 3 stars in every other series against the Habs, or should I say "the Carey Price show". It's hard to even win games when depth players give them away in spectacular fashion when your up against the Cinderella goalie of the playoffs (again somehow). Can you name a more insane giveaway than Galchenyuks unpressured pass to give the Habs a 2-0 in overtime less than a minute in after a huge comeback by the Leafs? Price was stopping the entire league in the playoffs and the last thing to do was to be giving games away like that. With the Matthews/Marner line being maybe the best defensive line in the first round, we didnt have to worry about that from them. Only from the playoff plugs that were a far bigger element in losing the series.
Too much time is being spent on attacking on of the best parts of the team. I'm not making these things up. If anything, this last playoffs showed me these guys really do have playoff gear (their underlying stats and defensive game were elite, unlike the Babcock years) We're not going to run into insane goaltending and injuries like this again I dont think but even if we do, our top players numbers this year should have been enough ( like Tampa's lesser numbers were) The top players and the top 4 D were really good in spite of the adversity and the goaltending remains the big question mark. It's why Andersen's decline was really sad to see as I think 2017-2018 Andersen would go on a massive run with this group. I've liked almost everything thats been done too as it's addressed exactly what I thought was needed. Get more guys that go to the net, replace Andersen, replace PP coaching and keep positive despite the bad injury luck. The players seem focused and ready and I think they'll do well next time.
The Leafs lost yet again last playoffs.
The top guys along with the rest of the team didn’t show up when it matters.
All these if only or if that is useless bc every teams who lost in the playoffs could have use the same what ifs.
There is a reason why TB is dominating and won back to back Cups. Heck even before they won Cups, they won the President Trophy, and before that, they were winning rounds and even when they missed the playoffs, other GMs will always refer to TB as having talents and very deep and wish their team can build TB’s system.
Instead of saying they are lucky to operated over the Cap or have Vas…maybe Dubas and other GMs should really look into how Yzerman build the system for the past 10 years or so.
One thing I have been saying whenever the WJC thread appears yearly is the amount of TB prospects playing in that tournament and how some of TB prospects(even mid to late round pick) ends up being one of the best players on their teams. That’s something I see Dubas is doing and showing in the last WJC.
The top guys along with the rest of the team didn’t show up when it matters.
All these if only or if that is useless bc every teams who lost in the playoffs could have use the same what ifs.
There is a reason why TB is dominating and won back to back Cups. Heck even before they won Cups, they won the President Trophy, and before that, they were winning rounds and even when they missed the playoffs, other GMs will always refer to TB as having talents and very deep and wish their team can build TB’s system.
Instead of saying they are lucky to operated over the Cap or have Vas…maybe Dubas and other GMs should really look into how Yzerman build the system for the past 10 years or so.
One thing I have been saying whenever the WJC thread appears yearly is the amount of TB prospects playing in that tournament and how some of TB prospects(even mid to late round pick) ends up being one of the best players on their teams. That’s something I see Dubas is doing and showing in the last WJC.
kb
Registered User
- Aug 28, 2009
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I'm missing a button to like this, but you hit the nail right on the head. Matthews especially was next level dominant, but was snakebit and perhaps bothered by the wrist he had to have surgery on.
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