The New and really Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

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Im just trying to look at the big picture.

I mean, not talking about player production at all, if Tampa had the injury issues and goaltending in elimination games the Leafs received, do they even make it out of the first round? If comparables like Stamkos, McDonaugh and Gourde are knocked out of the series and Kucherov is having trouble finishing due to a wrist that needs surgery while, at the same time, your goalie goes from making huge saves and .955% in big games to sub .900% and giving up softies AND the Panthers goalie is Price instead of Bobrovsky, do you best a hungry Panthers team?

These are "ifs" just like your if but the fact still remains that what happened this playoffs is that the big three players for the Leafs outperformed the top 3 stars in every other series against the Habs, or should I say "the Carey Price show". It's hard to even win games when depth players give them away in spectacular fashion when your up against the Cinderella goalie of the playoffs (again somehow). Can you name a more insane giveaway than Galchenyuks unpressured pass to give the Habs a 2-0 in overtime less than a minute in after a huge comeback by the Leafs? Price was stopping the entire league in the playoffs and the last thing to do was to be giving games away like that. With the Matthews/Marner line being maybe the best defensive line in the first round, we didnt have to worry about that from them. Only from the playoff plugs that were a far bigger element in losing the series.

Too much time is being spent on attacking on of the best parts of the team. I'm not making these things up. If anything, this last playoffs showed me these guys really do have playoff gear (their underlying stats and defensive game were elite, unlike the Babcock years) We're not going to run into insane goaltending and injuries like this again I dont think but even if we do, our top players numbers this year should have been enough ( like Tampa's lesser numbers were) The top players and the top 4 D were really good in spite of the adversity and the goaltending remains the big question mark. It's why Andersen's decline was really sad to see as I think 2017-2018 Andersen would go on a massive run with this group. I've liked almost everything thats been done too as it's addressed exactly what I thought was needed. Get more guys that go to the net, replace Andersen, replace PP coaching and keep positive despite the bad injury luck. The players seem focused and ready and I think they'll do well next time.
That’s all fine and dandy, but the main problem is that Dubas had no clue how to handle negotiations, and Marner and Matthews didn’t care about having a capable supporting cast nor giving any hometown discount.
Dubas believes in building from the top down, and this has not led to any playoff success.
I truly hope he proves me wrong, but if he doesn’t, management needs to go and changes made to the core.
 
Leafs got secondary scoring against Montreal and nothing else. Primary and depth scoring was mostly nonexistent. If Matthews and Marner score or if Tavares plays we likely win, though with this team those words ring hollow.
 
Leafs got secondary scoring against Montreal and nothing else. Primary and depth scoring was mostly nonexistent. If Matthews and Marner score or if Tavares plays we likely win, though with this team those words ring hollow.

I understand this argument to an extent but after Tavares goes down, Toronto's primary scorers are Mathews/Marner/Nylander right?

What do you call primary/secondary/depth?
 
$22M in cap hit
12 Playoff games
3 goals

You can attempt to justify that this was some dominating performance until you're blue in the face.......IMO it is a failure and doesn't come close to meeting expectations.

I don't want anyone traded, or whipped, or bagged skated until they puke......I want them to meet (not even exceed) expectations on the scoreboard when the games really matter.
 
I'm missing a button to like this, but you hit the nail right on the head. Matthews especially was next level dominant, but was snakebit and perhaps bothered by the wrist he had to have surgery on.
But surely if they miss the playoffs this year, or go out once again in the 1st round, there can be no more excuses.
 
I put Nylander in the same secondary category along with Kerfoot.

So even after Tavares goes down, you put the guy with the 22nd highest goals production/60 over the last two years (higher than Pettersson, MacKinnon, Panarin, Point, Crosby, Kane and Barkov) and the 38th highest points production/60 (ahead of Kuznetsov, Barzal, Giroux, Couts, Kopitar, O'Reilly, Ovi) of all regular NHLers as a secondary scorer?...and comparing him to Kerfoot? (198th in goals and 188th in points in those categories)

Pretty sure we have 4 primary scorers and he's one of them and our primary scoring was better than any other teams against Price, by far (17 points from 3 players).

Secondary scoring options were good but not as great as Foligno struggled with injury, Hymen could never get it going but Kerfoot and Spezza (who slotted into secondary scoring roles quite nicely with the injuries) did a decent job of putting up points. Galchenyuk put up 4 points as well but didnt play all that great overall with awful analytics and actually threw a game away(17 points from 5 players)

The remaining 6 depth forwards were pretty much plugs and only managed 3 points in 7 games combined.

D production was decent but took a big hit when yet another injury took out Muzzin in game 6.
 
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So even after Tavares goes down, you put the guy with the 22nd highest goals production/60 over the last two years (higher than Pettersson, MacKinnon, Panarin, Point, Crosby, Kane and Barkov) and the 38th highest points production/60 (ahead of Kuznetsov, Barzal, Giroux, Couts, Kopitar, O'Reilly, Ovi) of all regular NHLers as a secondary scorer?...and comparing him to Kerfoot? (198th in goals and 188th in points in those categories)

Pretty sure we have 4 primary scorers and he's one of them and our primary scoring was better than any other teams against Price, by far (17 points from 3 players).

Secondary scoring options were good but not as great as Foligno struggled with injury, Hymen could never get it going but Kerfoot and Spezza (who slotted into secondary scoring roles quite nicely with the injuries) did a decent job of putting up points. Galchenyuk put up 4 points as well but didnt play all that great overall with awful analytics and actually threw a game away(17 points from 5 players)

The remaining 6 depth forwards were pretty much plugs and only managed 3 points in 7 games combined.

D production was decent but took a big hit when yet another injury took out Muzzin in game 6.

Keefe used Nylander as a secondary option, take it up with him. His toi was well behind Matthews and Marner. And he only got time on the top PP when JT went down.

Nylander is skilled enough to be a primary guy and on most teams he would be, but until Keefe adjusts his time distribution his minutes imply secondary option.
 
Keefe used Nylander as a secondary option, take it up with him. His toi was well behind Matthews and Marner. And he only got time on the top PP when JT went down.

Nylander is skilled enough to be a primary guy and on most teams he would be, but until Keefe adjusts his time distribution his minutes imply secondary option.

Thats just it, its already a debate when Tavares is in the lineup and a no-doubter he's a go to guy with the captain down. The guy had a higher TOI/game than Kucherov and Barzal. Isolating Matthews and Marner like this is a little strange TBH when Nylander was absolutely a primary weapon.
 
Thats just it, its already a debate when Tavares is in the lineup and a no-doubter he's a go to guy with the captain down. The guy had a higher TOI/game than Kucherov and Barzal. Isolating Matthews and Marner like this is a little strange TBH when Nylander was absolutely a primary weapon.

Marner got 6 minutes and 22 seconds more ice per 60 minutes than Nylander in the playoffs which seems like an absurd discrepancy. 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Can't help but think that had Keefe adjusted to the fact that Nylander looked amazing out there and given some of Marner's ice time to him instead, the result might have been different.

6 minutes and 22 seconds, geez Louise!!
 
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Marner got 6 minutes and 22 seconds more ice per 60 minutes than Nylander in the playoffs which seems like an absurd discrepancy. 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Can't help but think that had Keefe adjusted to the fact that Nylander looked amazing out there and given some of Marner's ice time to him instead, the result might have been different.

6 minutes and 22 seconds, geez Louise!!
Some of those minutes would be the PK but other than that, agreed.
 
All these playoff stats ignore the eye test. To me hockey is entertainment and the eye test is very important in playoffs. I saw the leafs, led by their top talent playing with the same urgency to come from behind in a game that I'd expect to see in a game with zero playoff implications in January....
If they had laid siege to the the habs and come up short I'd be happy to let the whole thing go and look forward to next years playoffs...
 
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Well it's new season, so can we already change the tape and move on?
Yep, now that the season has begun I'm ignoring any mention of the playoffs.
It's really not that hard to do.
 
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I think the toughest thing about being a Leafs fan in recent times is watching GM after GM doing it wrong. Not that we as fans qualify as NHL Executives, but we see what recent GMs do and we know that it's destined to fail.

John Ferguson Jr.
Signed several key leafs to No Trade Clauses as it seemed that they were at the end of their usefulness. Traded 1st round picks/prospects for quick fix goalie solutions. Signed slow/big players after obstruction in the NHL was being cracked down on by refs.

Cliff Fletcher
Desperately trying to deal with JFJ's mess tried to revamp and compete on the fly. Many remember the not so great Steen/Carlo C for Stempniak trade.

B. Burke and limited time with Nonis
Going against his own advise, Burke tried to speed up a re-build by trading 2 x 1sts and a 2nd for Kessel, allowed Wilson to name Dion as captain and cornerstone for the franchise (labeling him a "horse/stud"). Nonis taking over after Burke's dismissal thought that TOR was a power forward away from going deep in the playoffs. Signs Clarkson to a terrible contract.

Dubas
Currently fans are going through the unknown wilderness of a top heavy forward group and a depleting prospect pool (trading 3 × 1st round picks with only Muzzin to show for it).

Why does the questionable management moves happen here of all places?

Dubas is the first GM of all of them to:

1. Not saddle us with any bad contracts whatsoever.
2. Make multiple legit top-end adds (Tavares, Muzzin, Brodie).
3. Give us one of the better prospect pools in hockey, even without any top-end picks.

Very refreshing to finally have a good GM in charge.
 
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Dubas is the first GM of all of them to:

1. Not saddle us with any bad contracts whatsoever.
2. Make multiple legit top-end adds (Tavares, Muzzin, Brodie).
3. Give us one of the better prospect pools in hockey, even without any top-end picks.

Very refreshing to finally have a good GM in charge.
and yet he'll be fired by the end of this season if not earlier
 
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Dubas is the first GM of all of them to:

1. Not saddle us with any bad contracts whatsoever.
2. Make multiple legit top-end adds (Tavares, Muzzin, Brodie).
3. Give us one of the better prospect pools in hockey, even without any top-end picks.

Very refreshing to finally have a good GM in charge.

How do you keep a prospect pool "better" when you're trading first round picks away?

I think if a significant forward, or a defenseman goes down to injury this season that leaf fans won't be singing the praises of our prospect pool.
 
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How do you keep a prospect pool "better" when you're trading first round picks away?

I think if a significant forward, or a defenseman goes down to injury this season that leaf fans won't be singing the praises of our prospect pool.
i've read our prospect pool gets "better" every year i've been on this board , lol
 
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How do you keep a prospect pool "better" when you're trading first round picks away?

by drafting good players.

I think if a significant forward, or a defenseman goes down to injury this season that leaf fans won't be singing the praises of our prospect pool.

strange, cuz most team don't have prospects as good as Robertson and Sandin/Liljegren ready to step in.
 
by drafting good players.



strange, cuz most team don't have prospects as good as Robertson and Sandin/Liljegren ready to step in.
I see what youre doing. Took me awhile.
Sandin will be playing leaving Liljegren as the defensive depth.
 
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