The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[zeke]

Oh ok, I think I see what you mean now. Because Lou inherited a bad team, it therefore led to the acquisition of Matthews which you consider part of the "inheritance".

That it?

Yes, the situation Lou inherited led directly to Matthews, with no action taken by or needed from Lou.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yep they each had franchise centers fall into their laps.
Man , the insecurity in this place is off the charts. Being able to admit when you're wrong shows character and self confidence, sorely lacking in a few.

I get a ton wrong all the time.

zeke reminds me of Dubas

 

[egd27]

Yes, the situation Lou inherited led directly to Matthews, with no action taken by or needed from Lou.

Got it. So yes I apologize for not understanding your use of the term inheritance.

I'm glad we can at least agree that the situation Lou inherited was so poor, it led directly to Matthews being chosen with the 1st overall in 2016.

Unlike Dubas, who inherited a team coming off a 105 point season.

Good talk.

 

[ACC1224]

Got it. So yes I apologize for not understanding your use of the term inheritance.

I'm glad we can at least agree that the situation Lou inherited was so poor, it led directly to Matthews being chosen with the 1st overall in 2016.

Unlike Dubas, who inherited a team coming off a 105 point season.

Good talk.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

They didn’t play a single top 10 team all year, regular season or playoffs.

People don’t ignore it but context matters.

We also didn't play any bottom feeders either. Vancouver was the worst in the division and I think everybody would be in agreement that looking at their roster and where they were the year before that they should have been better than what they were and they were the 8th worst team. Ottawa was just ahead of them, they were a very hard team to play against and are on the rise. We never played the Buffalos, Detroits who we wouldve played 5-6times and collected easy pts. We also didn't play against the California teams or Arizona who are all garbage now.

Even ignoring competition, would you not agree that the team we saw this year was the most structurally sound and the most well balanced team we have had since the Pat Quinn era? We reduced our shots against/per game and the number of high danger chances against significantly. We also hardly saw any 3rd period collapses or run and gun play like we've had for the last 15 years. We've lost a bit of depth scoring but we are still one of the most high powered offenses in the league even with a struggling PP, solid defense and decent goalie tandem. We showed that we could shutdown anybody when they shutdown the best offensive duo in Hockey for 3 straight games.

This team has to get the PP figured out and start getting it done in the playoffs though.

 

[WTFMAN99]

We also didn't play any bottom feeders either. Vancouver was the worst in the division and I think everybody would be in agreement that looking at their roster and where they were the year before that they should have been better than what they were and they were the 8th worst team. Ottawa was just ahead of them, they were a very hard team to play against and are on the rise. We never played the Buffalos, Detroits who we wouldve played 5-6times and collected easy pts. We also didn't play against the California teams or Arizona who are all garbage now.

Even ignoring competition, would you not agree that the team we saw this year was the most structurally sound and the most well balanced team we have had since the Pat Quinn era? We reduced our shots against/per game and the number of high danger chances against significantly. We also hardly saw any 3rd period collapses or run and gun play like we've had for the last 15 years. We've lost a bit of depth scoring but we are still one of the most high powered offenses in the league even with a struggling PP, solid defense and decent goalie tandem. We showed that we could shutdown anybody when they shutdown the best offensive duo in Hockey for 3 straight games.

This team has to get the PP figured out and start getting it done in the playoffs though.

Vancouver missed Pettersson most of the season which changes a lot for them.

I think we all talk about Marner and Keefe etc which you can discuss but would any firing be as universally agreed upon as Malhotra? The results were as clear as day.

 

[Ashdown2]

We also didn't play any bottom feeders either. Vancouver was the worst in the division and I think everybody would be in agreement that looking at their roster and where they were the year before that they should have been better than what they were and they were the 8th worst team. Ottawa was just ahead of them, they were a very hard team to play against and are on the rise. We never played the Buffalos, Detroits who we wouldve played 5-6times and collected easy pts. We also didn't play against the California teams or Arizona who are all garbage now.

Even ignoring competition, would you not agree that the team we saw this year was the most structurally sound and the most well balanced team we have had since the Pat Quinn era? We reduced our shots against/per game and the number of high danger chances against significantly. We also hardly saw any 3rd period collapses or run and gun play like we've had for the last 15 years. We've lost a bit of depth scoring but we are still one of the most high powered offenses in the league even with a struggling PP, solid defense and decent goalie tandem. We showed that we could shutdown anybody when they shutdown the best offensive duo in Hockey for 3 straight games.

This team has to get the PP figured out and start getting it done in the playoffs though.

ya exactly context matters lol
3 of his supposed "top 10" had a mickey mouse schedule against arizona, la, sj and anaheim . leafs would have ened the season with over 90 points playing against that garbage

 

[Gabriel426]

Nucks also missed almost a month due to COVID. Even though Leafs didn’t take advantage of that but other teams did.

 

[sparxx87]

It's a very delicate line to follow, you don't want to spend too long in suck city.

Eichel was a a hell of a talent that they landed but they never properly built around him...or maybe they did and it was the culture? Lehner, ROR, Zadorov, Bogosian, have all left and had more success.

100%. If you sell off too many veteran leaders who hate losing it can lead the culture and attitude astray, and if goes on for too long the players can become desensitized to losing.

Lamoriello did well in assessing his greatest needs as number 1 centre and number 1 goalie. Blueline needed work but it was fair to project Rielly as a middle of the road 1. Bozak and Kadri were nice, but you'd love them a lot more as your 2-3 if you can add a two-way franchise centre at the top and knock them down a rung. Veteran wings in JVR and Komorov on the roster + Marner and Nylander who project as top line talent on top of Hyman, Brown, Kapanen etc

With all this in place he found a way to compete every night but lose enough games to bottom out and give himself the best odds to draft that franchise altering centreman then trade for a legitimate number 1 goalie without giving up anything he needed to keep.


Buffalo is a perfect example of how it can go wrong. I don't even know the problem, but I suspect its poor leadership and an entitled star. O'Reilly seemed to allude to that on his way out, but much of that is open for interpretation.


I'm not entirely sure how much credit to give Lamoriello for Matthews, but I do know I could make a case that Matthews and Anderson were arguably their MVP's over the next 3 years and the greatest driving force in their turnaround so it seems pretty disingenuous to give zero credit to the guy driving the bus who picked both up in the span of a few days.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Nucks also missed almost a month due to COVID. Even though Leafs didn’t take advantage of that but other teams did.

Completely forgot about that.

 

[ACC1224]

100%. If you sell off too many veteran leaders who hate losing it can lead the culture and attitude astray, and if goes on for too long the players can become desensitized to losing.

Lamoriello did well in assessing his greatest needs as number 1 centre and number 1 goalie. Blueline needed work but it was fair to project Rielly as a middle of the road 1. Bozak and Kadri were nice, but you'd love them a lot more as your 2-3 if you can add a two-way franchise centre at the top and knock them down a rung. Veteran wings in JVR and Komorov on the roster + Marner and Nylander who project as top line talent on top of Hyman, Brown, Kapanen etc

With all this in place he found a way to compete every night but lose enough games to bottom out and give himself the best odds to draft that franchise altering centreman then trade for a legitimate number 1 goalie without giving up anything he needed to keep.


Buffalo is a perfect example of how it can go wrong. I don't even know the problem, but I suspect its poor leadership and an entitled star. O'Reilly seemed to allude to that on his way out, but much of that is open for interpretation.


I'm not entirely sure how much credit to give Lamoriello for Matthews, but I do know I could make a case that Matthews and Anderson were arguably their MVP's over the next 3 years and the greatest driving force in their turnaround so it seems pretty disingenuous to give zero credit to the guy driving the bus who picked both up in the span of a few days.

Somehow in bizzaro any props given to Lou is a perceived slight to Dubas. ....can't have that.

 

[Gabriel426]

Somehow in bizzaro any props given to Lou is a perceived slight to Dubas. ....can't have that.

Pretty much. I blame our education system and culture over the past 20 years that emphasized on math, science, business…instead of history, philosophy and arts where they actually teach you to look at all angles and opinions instead of belittle or claim false at anything that doesn’t align with your beliefs.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

OK so here's the roster Lou either inherited OR was gifted:

Asterisk = ELC

Hyman* - Matthews* - Marner*
Nylander* - Kadri - Kapanen*
VanRiemsdyk - Bozak - Brown*
Johnsson* - Winnik - Komarov
(Verhaeghe* - Engvall* - Leivo*)

Rielly - Gardiner
Hunwick - Polak
Dermott* - Harrington*

Bernier


Plus Bad Contracts to be fair:

D.Phaneuf ($7.0 x6)
J.Lupul (ended up LTIR for an easy fix)
$1.2m Kessel dead cap

To be honest I really dont care about what the original argument was. I have no dog in the fight in the Dubas vs Lou extravaganza that has dominated this board for months.

Honestly Im not necessarily disagreeing with your sentiment (like many of the things you say). Lou did also walk into a good situation. However misrepresenting things or making things up does little to help your point and undercuts your credibility. I appreciate the work you put in with compiling stats, making tables, detailed analysis etc. However if you believe your right just let the facts do the talking for you and don't try to frame or fudge things to prove your point.

 

[ULF_55]

4th worst again doesn’t get them a franchise centre.

How do you artificially sewer your value to bottom out while still maintaining infrastructure and not tearing it all down?

They didn’t want to get Marty Gerber’d.

If tanking for the top pick then making the playoffs the following year were easy, why doesn’t everyone on the bubble or near the bottom do it?

You mean like Edmonton and Toronto did?

 

[sparxx87]

We also didn't play any bottom feeders either. Vancouver was the worst in the division and I think everybody would be in agreement that looking at their roster and where they were the year before that they should have been better than what they were and they were the 8th worst team. Ottawa was just ahead of them, they were a very hard team to play against and are on the rise. We never played the Buffalos, Detroits who we wouldve played 5-6times and collected easy pts. We also didn't play against the California teams or Arizona who are all garbage now.

Even ignoring competition, would you not agree that the team we saw this year was the most structurally sound and the most well balanced team we have had since the Pat Quinn era? We reduced our shots against/per game and the number of high danger chances against significantly. We also hardly saw any 3rd period collapses or run and gun play like we've had for the last 15 years. We've lost a bit of depth scoring but we are still one of the most high powered offenses in the league even with a struggling PP, solid defense and decent goalie tandem. We showed that we could shutdown anybody when they shutdown the best offensive duo in Hockey for 3 straight games.

This team has to get the PP figured out and start getting it done in the playoffs though.

We can agree that the schedule and competition was imbalanced across the league because of the divisions, I just don't care enough about the regular season to try and handicap it. It's for seeding and working out the kinks. As Kawhi Leonard with his noted championship mentality once said "the regular season is 82 practices to prepare for the playoffs". Celebrating regular season credentials is weak. For me, the equivalent of displaying a participation trophy.

And no, I didn't like the balance of the forward group. They only had 2 good NHL centreman on the roster and were down to 1 about 8 minutes into game 1. Lacking this basic infrastructure is why it's been so easy for me to dismiss them as a threat to beat 4 different opponents in a matchup scenario.

Hardly any 3rd period collapses is positive, I guess, but a playoff collapse to blow a 3-1 first round lead against the 18th place team makes me not really care again.

 

[sparxx87]

You mean like Edmonton and Toronto did?

What did they do? Create a new measure of ineptitude?

 

[Havoc]

Got it. So yes I apologize for not understanding your use of the term inheritance.

I'm glad we can at least agree that the situation Lou inherited was so poor, it led directly to Matthews being chosen with the 1st overall in 2016.

Unlike Dubas, who inherited a team coming off a 105 point season.

Good talk.

Friendly reminder Dubas helped build the team that got 105 points. Helped enough that he was given the GM position. He didnt inherit the team like how other gms inherit teams.

 

[Gabriel426]

The results of Lou being GM for the Leafs. 1st round playoffs exits. In other words, made the playoffs.
Results of Dubas being GM for the Leafs(sofar). 1st round playoffs exits. In other words, made the playoffs.
Results of Nonis being GM for the Leafs. 1st round playoff exit. In other words, made the playoffs.
Results of Quinn being GM for the Leafs. Conf Finals. In other words, FINAL FOUR in the League.

Did I miss anything?

Based on the above facts.
Quinn was byfar the best GM, while Nonis, Dubas and Lou are the same.
Dubas can still change it bc he is the current Leafs GM.

 

[Menzinger]

You mean like Edmonton and Toronto did?

I find debates over praising (or critiquing) GMs for tanking results to be a bit silly. Chiarelli drafting McDavid was something the fans were likely thankful for, but isn't any sort of accomplishment, especially for their management. I love Nylander as a player, but certainly don't feel like patting Nonis on the back because his team lost a ton of games and ended up in the bottom 10.

GMs should ultimately be judged by their abilities (or lack there of) to build winning teams.

 

[ULF_55]

I find debates over praising (or critiquing) GMs for tanking results to be a bit silly. Chiarelli drafting McDavid was something the fans were likely thankful for, but isn't any sort of accomplishment, especially for their management. I love Nylander as a player, but certainly don't feel like patting Nonis on the back because his team lost a ton of games and ended up in the bottom 10.

GMs should ultimately be judged by their abilities (or lack there of) to build winning teams.

Yep, right now we can't really be praising any GM, really since Pat no one deserves any credit.

 

[Marmoset]

The results of Lou being GM for the Leafs. 1st round playoffs exits. In other words, made the playoffs.
Results of Dubas being GM for the Leafs(sofar). 1st round playoffs exits. In other words, made the playoffs.
Results of Nonis being GM for the Leafs. 1st round playoff exit. In other words, made the playoffs.
Results of Quinn being GM for the Leafs. Conf Finals. In other words, FINAL FOUR in the League.

Did I miss anything?

Based on the above facts.
Quinn was byfar the best GM, while Nonis, Dubas and Lou are the same.
Dubas can still change it bc he is the current Leafs GM.

I think this is overly simplistic, at least with regard to the Lou/Dubas discussion. Expectations matter. Lou took over a team that was nowhere and getting the team to the playoffs as quickly as he did could be looked at as exceeding expectations. Dubas took over a team that was expected to be a more serious contender, but so far that has not happened.

That doesn't mean I think either guy is better/worse; I just don't think you can use that approach to evaluate them without looking at other factors.

However, it's hard to ignore that Quinn, and also Cliff Fletcher, accomplished far more than any of the more recent guys in charge of the team. I would be thrilled if Dubas can join that group, I just don't think he will. Time will tell.

 

[The CyNick]

That playoff series changes nothing about how mediocre of a regular season team Montreal has been, and got worse.

Let's see what happens. Caufield and Suzuki are absolute studs and will be even better this year.

 

[ULF_55]

Let's see what happens. Caufield and Suzuki are absolute studs and will be even better this year.

Wouldn't have mattered if the double digits actually showed up with a purpose.

 

[egd27]

Friendly reminder Dubas helped build the team that got 105 points. Helped enough that he was given the GM position. He didnt inherit the team like how other gms inherit teams.

There's some truth in that. How much he helped is open to interpretation, but I'm sure he did help.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think this is overly simplistic, at least with regard to the Lou/Dubas discussion. Expectations matter. Lou took over a team that was nowhere and getting the team to the playoffs as quickly as he did could be looked at as exceeding expectations. Dubas took over a team that was expected to be a more serious contender, but so far that has not happened.

That doesn't mean I think either guy is better/worse; I just don't think you can use that approach to evaluate them without looking at other factors.

However, it's hard to ignore that Quinn, and also Cliff Fletcher, accomplished far more than any of the more recent guys in charge of the team. I would be thrilled if Dubas can join that group, I just don't think he will. Time will tell.

I am looking at this 20, 30, 40 yrs or more down the line.
I doubt my grand kids-if they are Leafs or even Hockey fans would care what type of teams Lou and Dubas inherited or the expectations of the team…, bc at the end, Lou’s team didn’t advanced to the 2nd round and as of now, same can be said about Dubas.

Like the saying a goal is a goal, it doesn’t matter if you deked around 3 players to score or off a deflection, it still going to count as a goal.

As of now, Lou, Dubas and even Nonis is the same in terms of leading the Leafs to Cup. Quinn did more than them but some might argue, actually belittle Quinn’s accomplishments by stating there was no Cap at that time, or Quinn’s team got amazing goaltending…..both are facts bc there was no cap back then and Eagle is still the best Leafs goalie over the past 30 yrs. But that should not take away what Quinn did and done.

Until Dubas and his Leafs Advance to the 2nd round, he is at the same level with Lou and Nonis. When his Leafs move to the 2nd round, he will be ahead of Lou and Nonis but still not at Quinn’s level unless the team reaches Conf Finals. If Dubas’s Leafs make it to the Cup Finals and Win, there is no doubt he is the best Leafs GM over the past 50 years.