The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[hotpaws]

Friendly reminder Dubas helped build the team that got 105 points. Helped enough that he was given the GM position. He didnt inherit the team like how other gms inherit teams.

friendly reminder as per Dubas , Lou kicked him to the Marlies as soon as he was hired

 

[zeke]

To be honest I really dont care about what the original argument was. I have no dog in the fight in the Dubas vs Lou extravaganza that has dominated this board for months.

Honestly Im not necessarily disagreeing with your sentiment (like many of the things you say). Lou did also walk into a good situation. However misrepresenting things or making things up does little to help your point and undercuts your credibility. I appreciate the work you put in with compiling stats, making tables, detailed analysis etc. However if you believe your right just let the facts do the talking for you and don't try to frame or fudge things to prove your point.

Not "also walked into a good situation".

Lou quite literally walked in a much better situation than Dubas did, despite the claim that Dubas walked into a dream scenario.

 

[zeke]

Got it. So yes I apologize for not understanding your use of the term inheritance.

I'm glad we can at least agree that the situation Lou inherited was so poor, it led directly to Matthews being chosen with the 1st overall in 2016.

Unlike Dubas, who inherited a team coming off a 105 point season.

Good talk.

As the original post outlined clearly - Dubas inherited nothing remotely as good as the unreal collection of elite ELC talent Lou was gifted.

 

[WTFMAN99]

As the original post outlined clearly - Dubas inherited nothing remotely as good as the unreal collection of elite ELC talent Lou was gifted.

What has Dubas done since then with that elite talent?

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Vancouver missed Pettersson most of the season which changes a lot for them.

I think we all talk about Marner and Keefe etc which you can discuss but would any firing be as universally agreed upon as Malhotra? The results were as clear as day.

Missing Pettersen is a big blow no doubt but they still had Horvat, Boeser, Miller, Hughes, Schmidt, Hoglander, with Holtby and Demko in net. That is still nowhere near a bottom feeder lineup without EP. Thats still a way more talented lineup than the Habs.

Malhotra I think still can have a huge role for this team, just not on the PP again. That i think everyone will agree on. The guy was a heart and soul player, defensive and facoff specialist. As long as we use him to his strengths.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

We can agree that the schedule and competition was imbalanced across the league because of the divisions, I just don't care enough about the regular season to try and handicap it. It's for seeding and working out the kinks. As Kawhi Leonard with his noted championship mentality once said "the regular season is 82 practices to prepare for the playoffs". Celebrating regular season credentials is weak. For me, the equivalent of displaying a participation trophy.

And no, I didn't like the balance of the forward group. They only had 2 good NHL centreman on the roster and were down to 1 about 8 minutes into game 1. Lacking this basic infrastructure is why it's been so easy for me to dismiss them as a threat to beat 4 different opponents in a matchup scenario.

Hardly any 3rd period collapses is positive, I guess, but a playoff collapse to blow a 3-1 first round lead against the 18th place team makes me not really care again.

I agree the divisions played a role for a lot of teams and it was definitely our easiest avenue in the playoffs as we knew we didn't have a power house to go up against in the first round. People in this thread keep on going on back and forth about Lou's 105pt record setting team vs Dubas 112pt pace this year and then try to use the easy division argument to knock the team this year. I find that to be bogus. Did we have to play against the 2 other power houses in the east? No. Did we get to play against 2 of the most garbage teams in the east? No. We played in a division that had 5 other teams (MTL, WIN, CGY, EDM,VAN) that all had playoff calibre rosters. Ottawa was expected to be the worst in the division and even they were tough to play against every night and were only the 9th worst team in the league. If anything I would say the leafs had a very average to deep division. You and I and everyone else can agree that until they have playoffs success that what they do during the regular season is pretty much irrelevant.

When I said balanced I mean offense, defense and goal. We still had a high scoring team, we defended very well this year (had 3 top pairing calibre dmen) and on paper had a good tandem in goal but ended up only getting good numbers from Campbell. As opposed to the teams we had under Lou,Burke and Nonis who had good offense but were train wrecks everywhere else. As far as your center argument. Yes that was a big blow but you can literally say that about any team in the league (except Tampa). What does Colorado have without Kadri, what does Boston have without Krejci, what do the Pens have without Malkin etc. Tampa is the only team in the league that had 4 top 6 quality centers (and they were 18M over the cap). I don't get the hate towards Kerfoot honestly. He isn't who i would choose as a 3C but he has some skill, works hard and is good defensively. He was our 2nd best forward in the playoffs (which says a lot about how our stars performed).

 

[Gabriel426]

As the original post outlined clearly - Dubas inherited nothing remotely as good as the unreal collection of elite ELC talent Lou was gifted.

Dubas got AM, MM, Willie, Kadri, Reilly, Andersen(was a true No.1 at that time), Marleau, Brown, Hyman, Leivo, Zaitsev, Jake, Hainsey and Kap with AJ, Holl, Tima and Moore in the system.
Lou got Kadri, Leo, JVR, Bozak, Reilly, Jake, Dion, Polak, Bernier, Winnik, Hunwick and I think Mattius and PAP. Hyman, Brown, Goat, Leivo, Kap, Harrington, Willie and MM were in the system.
Hyman was a prospect and he was far from being the 5.5mil player he is today. Brown was a 6th or 7th rounder, nobody expected him to be the player he is today back then. Willie, MM and Kap were the sure thing, while the rest were prospects and unknowns.
Lou didn’t inherit a better team or a team close to Dubas. Dubas got a 1C, a 2Cs, Two top line wingers, more than enough mid 6 forwards and a Reilly and Andersen.

If Lou and Leafs didn’t win the lottery and looking at the 2-4th pick in that draft, I don’t think the Leafs would be in good shape. They most likely will tank another year
Now tanking and retooling/rebuilding is a lot easier than advancing to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Even without drafting AM, the Leafs will most likely be sellers till probably JT hitting the market.


To summarize, I think it is Completely fair to say, Lou inherited an easier situation while Dubas inherited a much better team.

 

[Bomber0104]

Not "also walked into a good situation".

Lou quite literally walked in a much better situation than Dubas did, despite the claim that Dubas walked into a dream scenario.

Last place is a "better situation" than a 105-point team?



Yeah...

 

[Bomber0104]

As the original post outlined clearly - Dubas inherited nothing remotely as good as the unreal collection of elite ELC talent Lou was gifted.

That usually happens after you finish last.

When you don't finish last anymore and don't get the top draft picks, it's now up to competent management to build upon and improve that critical mass that's compiled via draft.

Which Kyle has not done, full stop.

In fact, he cut his own limbs off by signing absolutely abhorrent contracts to those very ELC players that his predecessors so graced him with.

The team has done no better than the fresh-off-last-place team that Lou miraculously turned into a playoff team (that lost to the eventual Cup winners).

This clearly bothers you, a lot.

 

[Bomber0104]

What has Dubas done since then with that elite talent?

Signed them to abhorrent contracts and fizzled out in every game that mattered.

 

[Bomber0104]

Wouldn't have mattered if the double digits actually showed up with a purpose.

Who made those players double digits?

 

[deprw]

However, it's hard to ignore that Quinn, and also Cliff Fletcher, accomplished far more than any of the more recent guys in charge of the team. I would be thrilled if Dubas can join that group, I just don't think he will. Time will tell.

Dubas could probably get this team into 2nd round or conference finals, if he'd approach future of the franchise like Quinn and Fletcher did. We have enough assets to get one or two year run, where we could go all-in, after that we could be Cleveland Cavaliers of the NHL. During Quinn years we went after short term success and eventually that lead to us to decade worth of Death Valley.

Problem of Quinns Leafs? We weren't even close of winning the Stanley Cup, we had legit shot one or two years. At the moment we have that same chance every year and have some sustainability, but it's pretty fine line to walk.

Different era, without salary cup and different UFA market. You could pump up salaries and trade away your draft picks. Now it's way harder, because of the cap and rise of the youth.

You should have some context in these comparisons.

 

[ULF_55]

Dubas could probably get this team into 2nd round or conference finals, if he'd approach future of the franchise like Quinn and Fletcher did. We have enough assets to get one or two year run, where we could go all-in, after that we could be Cleveland Cavaliers of the NHL. During Quinn years we went after short term success and eventually that lead to us to decade worth of Death Valley.

Problem of Quinns Leafs? We weren't even close of winning the Stanley Cup, we had legit shot one or two years. At the moment we have that same chance every year and have some sustainability, but it's pretty fine line to walk.

Different era, without salary cup and different UFA market. You could pump up salaries and trade away your draft picks. Now it's way harder, because of the cap and rise of the youth.

You should have some context in these comparisons.

The context must also include "withing existing rules" because all teams compete within those same existing rules.
2021 Leafs are not in competition with previous era teams.
You don't discount the Canadiens Cups because they were won previously to the cap era.

Bottom line in the current era there is not a single GM who can stand up and take bows.

Problem with this current era teams is they've shown no ability to elevate their game, and one of their stars is completely dependent on another star.

Their salary situation may have some issue, but I don't see contracts skating on the ice, I see players. Players who didn't earn half their contract when the real season started, so overpaid by 20% or over paid by 60% they didn't earn it. At that point it isn't the contract that matters it is the non-performance.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Last place is a "better situation" than a 105-point team?



Yeah...

Do you not agree that Buffalo are in a much better situation than Tampa?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Do you not agree that Buffalo are in a much better situation than Tampa?

Except Buffalo's current situation is nothing remotely similar to the situation Lou walked into, and Tampa's current situation is nothing remotely similar to the situation Dubas walked into. It's beyond obvious that Lou walked into one of the best situations possible; a much easier situation than what Dubas has been dealt. Pointing to the previous season's point total is a very inaccurate way of representing the situation that was actually being passed on.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Except Buffalo's current situation is nothing remotely similar to the situation Lou walked into, and Tampa's current situation is nothing remotely similar to the situation Dubas walked into. It's beyond obvious that Lou walked into one of the best situations possible; a much easier situation than what Dubas has been dealt. Pointing to the previous season's point total is a very inaccurate way of representing the situation that was actually being passed on.

Eichel - Matthews
Reinhart - Nylander
Dahlin - Marner - D take longer - Doubt Dahlin gets to that level of star.
Risto - Rielly
Lehner - Andersen
ROR - Kadri

 

[Dekes For Days]

Eichel - Matthews
Reinhart - Nylander
Dahlin - Marner - D take longer - Doubt Dahlin gets to that level of star.
Risto - Rielly
Lehner - Andersen
ROR - Kadri

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Issues with these comparisons aside, the majority of those players aren't even on Buffalo anymore...

 

[ACC1224]

Eichel - Matthews
Reinhart - Nylander
Dahlin - Marner - D take longer - Doubt Dahlin gets to that level of star.
Risto - Rielly
Lehner - Andersen
ROR - Kadri

Dubas had a more desirable situation than Buffalo. Not even particularly close.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Issues with these comparisons aside, the majority of those players aren't even on Buffalo anymore...

Dubas had a more desirable situation than Buffalo. Not even particularly close.

I think it's somewhat comparable but Toronto was better.

Matthews > Eichel
Nylander = Reinhart
Marner > Dahlin
Rielly maybe slide edge over Risto (I want to see him this year away from Buffalo)
Andersen better than Lehner during their tenures together
ROR > Kadri

The support players after were much better for Toronto - JVR, Bozak, Gardiner etc vs Okposo, Skinner etc.

Always thought Buffalo was less than the sum of their parts.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I think it's somewhat comparable but Toronto was better.

Matthews > Eichel
Nylander = Reinhart
Marner > Dahlin
Rielly maybe slide edge over Risto (I want to see him this year away from Buffalo)
Andersen better than Lehner during their tenures together
ROR > Kadri

The support players after were much better for Toronto - JVR, Bozak, Gardiner etc vs Okposo, Skinner etc.

Always thought Buffalo was less than the sum of their parts.

Again, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make? My post had nothing to do with this...

 

[ToneDog]

Dubas had a more desirable situation than Buffalo. Not even particularly close.

I believe the comparison was Dubas' Leafs with Tampa. The way I see it:

Lou's inherited last place Leafs < Buffalo (Eichel) < Dubas' inherited Leafs < Tampa

 

[ACC1224]

I think it's somewhat comparable but Toronto was better.

Matthews > Eichel
Nylander = Reinhart
Marner > Dahlin
Rielly maybe slide edge over Risto (I want to see him this year away from Buffalo)
Andersen better than Lehner during their tenures together
ROR > Kadri

The support players after were much better for Toronto - JVR, Bozak, Gardiner etc vs Okposo, Skinner etc.

Always thought Buffalo was less than the sum of their parts.

Leafs were coming off a record season, Buffalo was and still is a lottery team.

 

[Marmoset]

Dubas could probably get this team into 2nd round or conference finals, if he'd approach future of the franchise like Quinn and Fletcher did. We have enough assets to get one or two year run, where we could go all-in, after that we could be Cleveland Cavaliers of the NHL. During Quinn years we went after short term success and eventually that lead to us to decade worth of Death Valley.

Problem of Quinns Leafs? We weren't even close of winning the Stanley Cup, we had legit shot one or two years. At the moment we have that same chance every year and have some sustainability, but it's pretty fine line to walk.

Different era, without salary cup and different UFA market. You could pump up salaries and trade away your draft picks. Now it's way harder, because of the cap and rise of the youth.

You should have some context in these comparisons.

The original discussion centered around the idea that basically, only results matter. Quinn and Fletcher got further, so they are better. I don't actually agree with that simplicity, but I have a hard time arguing Dubas is a better GM at this point in time. That may change, it may not.

I don't think your "context" changes very much. Dubas is doing an excellent job on the "trade away your draft picks" part. The salary cap is obviously totally different, but it's not like Dubas did not know the rules when he signed the contracts he signed, let free agents walk, and so on. I don't buy that he somehow has it much harder; if he does, so does every other GM.

Sure, it was a different time with different rules, but that does not mean it's harder for Dubas. All of the other GMs are playing by the same rules. Sure, the team has been a contender on paper for a number of years, but the 'on paper' has not translated to reality. You can only do that for so long before you have to conclude that maybe the team simply is not as good as we thought it was. Which is why he gets this coming season, but if they fail again, how can you say anything besides that this team just isn't that good?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Not "also walked into a good situation".

Lou quite literally walked in a much better situation than Dubas did, despite the claim that Dubas walked into a dream scenario.

I already said I didn't care about the Lou vs Dubas bullshit and that is all you take from my post lol...

 

[Leaf Fans]

friendly reminder as per Dubas , Lou kicked him to the Marlies as soon as he was hired

Yup as assistant GM, he took charge of the Marlies as part of his role. This is part of the normal role for AGMs throughout the league.