The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[zeke]

There were very genuine discussions about taking Laine over Matthews.

there were?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

there were?

Who drafted Auston Matthews? I can play this game too.

 

[zeke]

So in order to prop up Lou, we now have to claim that inheriting a tank job, adding some lottery luck, and drafting a no-brainer franchise center was actually an accomplishment rather than a gift handed to him.

AND, we have to say "105 pts is a franchise record that Dubas hasn't beat!" and MUST ignore that Dubas has only had 1 full season to challenge that record - and in that 1 season his leafs actually recorded more non-shootout points than lou's "record season!" anyways.

Tough times for the lou stans.

 

[egd27]

Ah, so you are quibbling with my choice of words in order to avoid the actual relevant point.

I see.

Not sure what "choice of words" you are referring to.

I know many have attempted this feat without success, but I'm feeling bold........

With the only acceptable answers being a simple Yes or No......Was Auston Matthews a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs when Lou Lamoriello began his tenure as Leaf's General Manager?

Edit.....I invite any board member to participate by providing their answer

 

[Gabriel426]

Thanks to inheriting the best core of ELC talent in hockey.

I pretty much said that in my post. If you even bother finish reading it.

 

[WTFMAN99]

So in order to prop up Lou, we now have to claim that inheriting a tank job, adding some lottery luck, and drafting a no-brainer franchise center was actually an accomplishment rather than a gift handed to him.

AND, we have to say "105 pts is a franchise record that Dubas hasn't beat!" and MUST ignore that Dubas has only had 1 full season to challenge that record - and in that 1 season his leafs actually recorded more non-shootout points than lou's "record season!" anyways.

Tough times for the lou stans.

Do you consider JT a franchise centre?

 

[Gabriel426]

Honestly both Lou and Dubas had not accomplished anything as Leafs GM. No Cups, no Conf Finals, heck not even advancing to 2nd round.
I don’t even know why people are comparing who is better when in fact they both had done absolutely nothing, since I doubt anyone would want to build a statue for making the playoffs.
The only difference between them is Dubas is still the GM which means his legacy or accomplishment as Leafs GM could change.

 

[zeke]

Not sure what "choice of words" you are referring to.

You just said you were taking issue with my use of the word "inherit".

How can you not be sure of it?

I know many have attempted this feat without success, but I'm feeling bold........

With the only acceptable answers being a simple Yes or No......Was Auston Matthews a member of the Toronto Maple Leafs when Lou Lamoriello began his tenure as Leaf's General Manager?

Edit.....I invite any board member to participate by providing their answer

Eesh - you're actually trying to argue that Lou didn't get gifted Auston Matthews on a platter.

Kinda feel bad for you, tbh.

 

[hamzarocks]

So in order to prop up Lou, we now have to claim that inheriting a tank job, adding some lottery luck, and drafting a no-brainer franchise center was actually an accomplishment rather than a gift handed to him.

AND, we have to say "105 pts is a franchise record that Dubas hasn't beat!" and MUST ignore that Dubas has only had 1 full season to challenge that record - and in that 1 season his leafs actually recorded more non-shootout points than lou's "record season!" anyways.

Tough times for the lou stans.

The fact that Lou's name continues to be brought up around here 3 years after being let go is telling enough how the dubas era has fared

No one would be caring about Lou if the leafs had lived up to even 80% of the expectations on the team the past three years.

Leafs under Dubas haven't improved in the playoffs, Dubas has refused to make a core change and is running it back a 4th time, and now people see Lou's isles doing great and are nostalgic

It's beyond disappointing that we are still having this discussion. Lou served well in his role in the rebuild but we should be well past him now, yet the team isn't moving forward and continues to fail to deliver.

Dubas will be continuously called out until the team manages to show some improvement in the playoffs. His entire tenure was designed to accelerate the leafs into a cup winner. He came in when the team was in peak contention years.

Dubas fans pretend that in 2017 and 2018 we should have won the cup not realizing that teams don't win cups a year after finishing last in the league. The only season we were contenders with Lou was 2018 which ended disapointingly.

Dubas, we've been contenders for 3 years and they've all ended in the same disappointing fashion as 2018. The organization hasn't found the way to move forward, and Dubas continues tinkering around the edges of the team while having sacrificed heavy offensive depth to upgrade the back end and keep the core underperforming players around. Ideally, this should be his all-or-nothing year, with another 1st round of embarrassment leading to his dismissal, but if not, he is finding himself losing support and losing the hype he came in with when hired on the job.

The next two years will determine the Shanny/Dubas era and the Matthews Era.

 

[zeke]

Do you consider JT a franchise centre?

sure.

Matthews is more than just a franchise center, to be fair.

 

[WTFMAN99]

sure.

Matthews is more than just a franchise center, to be fair.

So don't you think it's lucky that a franchise centre actually made it to free agency...and took less to sign with us (13M with SJ reported vs 11M with us) and despite that luck, we still haven't been able to push through in the playoffs?

BOS - Fairly evenly matched series
CBJ/MTL disappointments

Or it's weird that the team wasn't able to achieve more than what Lou's teams consisted of?

 

[egd27]

You just said you were taking issue with my use of the word "inherit".

How can you not be sure of it?




Eesh - you're actually trying to argue that Lou didn't get gifted Auston Matthews on a platter.

Kinda feel bad for you, tbh.

1. Happy to admit I'm wrong if you can show me how I took issue with your use of the word "inherit" because I don't see it.
2. That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm stating that AM34 was not part of the team that Lou Lam inherited.

Don't feel bad for me, I'm grounded in reality and can discern a fact and accept it.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

You just said you were taking issue with my use of the word "inherit".

How can you not be sure of it?




Eesh - you're actually trying to argue that Lou didn't get gifted Auston Matthews on a platter.

Kinda feel bad for you, tbh.

Zeke, it was an obvious decision to pick Matthews and Lou did get lucky winning the lottery. Definitely was 'gifted' Matthews with luck.

However you need to admit you were wrong when you basically said Lou started his tenure here with Matthews. That is factual wrong and not debatable. That doesn't mean it was an accomplishment for Lou to draft Matthews but he certainly didn't start with him

That is all people seems to be saying, Lou didn't start with Matthews. He drafted him as he was lucky to win lottery. Language is very important and you like to speak in absolutes

 

[Dekes For Days]

4th worst again doesn’t get them a franchise centre.

They actually got that franchise center by getting 1 more point than the year before, and then winning a lottery.

They didn’t play a single top 10 team all year

They also didn't play a single bottom 7 team all year, and a cup finalist came from their division. Also, you're trying to have it both ways, where last year's results both are and aren't representative of team quality. There's no reason to downplay last year's franchise-best record.

There were very genuine discussions about taking Laine over Matthews.

There really weren't. Matthews was the beyond obvious choice.

 

[Gabriel426]

AM was not on the team when Lou became GM. Just like JT was not on the team when Dubas became GM.
Really don’t see why people need to argue that.
It is like saying TB GM inherited a back to back Cup Champs but TB weren’t Cup Champs when he was appointed GM after Stevie Y.

 

[zeke]

So don't you think it's lucky that a franchise centre actually made it to free agency...and took less to sign with us (13M with SJ reported vs 11M with us) and despite that luck, we still haven't been able to push through in the playoffs?

BOS - Fairly evenly matched series
CBJ/MTL disappointments

Or it's weird that the team wasn't able to achieve more than what Lou's teams consisted of?

Signing one of the biggest Free Agents of all time is nothing remotely similar to having a 1st overall no-brainer pick fall into your lap, of course.

 

[ACC1224]

Honestly both Lou and Dubas had not accomplished anything as Leafs GM. No Cups, no Conf Finals, heck not even advancing to 2nd round.
I don’t even know why people are comparing who is better when in fact they both had done absolutely nothing, since I doubt anyone would want to build a statue for making the playoffs.
The only difference between them is Dubas is still the GM which means his legacy or accomplishment as Leafs GM could change.

Good post, keeping it real.
Both had desirable situations and both hadn't/haven't accomplished much.
Dubas shouldn't need to be propped up by putting Lou Lam down but that seems to be all some want to hang on to.
Until of course the next GM is hired and then Dubas failures will be used to prop up the new guy.
Around and around we go.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Signing one of the biggest Free Agents of all time is nothing remotely similar to having a 1st overall no-brainer pick fall into your lap, of course.

Some would say JT fell into our lap, depending on how motivated you think he was to sign here.

 

[zeke]

1. Happy to admit I'm wrong if you can show me how I took issue with your use of the word "inherit" because I don't see it.
2. That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm stating that AM34 was not part of the team that Lou Lam inherited.

Don't feel bad for me, I'm grounded in reality and can discern a fact and accept it.

In point 2 you just gave the example you were asking for in point 1.

Anyways, Lou was obviously gifted Matthews. Trying to give him credit for adding Matthews is kinda sad.

 

[zeke]

Some would say JT fell into our lap, depending on how motivated you think he was to sign here.

It was a decision to spend $11m x7yrs on a top UFA.

nothing remotely like having an elite franchise C on an ELC fall into your lap for free.

 

[egd27]

Must have almost impossible for Kid Kyle to convince JT to come to Toronto.

 

[ACC1224]

So don't you think it's lucky that a franchise centre actually made it to free agency...and took less to sign with us (13M with SJ reported vs 11M with us) and despite that luck, we still haven't been able to push through in the playoffs?

BOS - Fairly evenly matched series
CBJ/MTL disappointments

Or it's weird that the team wasn't able to achieve more than what Lou's teams consisted of?

Yep they each had franchise centers fall into their laps.
Man , the insecurity in this place is off the charts. Being able to admit when you're wrong shows character and self confidence, sorely lacking in a few.

 

[zeke]

Zeke, it was an obvious decision to pick Matthews and Lou did get lucky winning the lottery. Definitely was 'gifted' Matthews with luck.

However you need to admit you were wrong when you basically said Lou started his tenure here with Matthews. That is factual wrong and not debatable. That doesn't mean it was an accomplishment for Lou to draft Matthews but he certainly didn't start with him

That is all people seems to be saying, Lou didn't start with Matthews. He drafted him as he was lucky to win lottery. Language is very important and you like to speak in absolutes

OK so here's the roster Lou either inherited OR was gifted:

Asterisk = ELC

Hyman* - Matthews* - Marner*
Nylander* - Kadri - Kapanen*
VanRiemsdyk - Bozak - Brown*
Johnsson* - Winnik - Komarov
(Verhaeghe* - Engvall* - Leivo*)

Rielly - Gardiner
Hunwick - Polak
Dermott* - Harrington*

Bernier


Plus Bad Contracts to be fair:

D.Phaneuf ($7.0 x6)
J.Lupul (ended up LTIR for an easy fix)
$1.2m Kessel dead cap

 

[egd27]

In point 2 you just gave the example you were asking for in point 1.

Anyways, Lou was obviously gifted Matthews. Trying to give him credit for adding Matthews is kinda sad.

Oh ok, I think I see what you mean now. Because Lou inherited a bad team, it therefore led to the acquisition of Matthews which you consider part of the "inheritance".

That it?

 

[zeke]

Paying $77m for a UFA is obviously not "falling into his lap".

How silly is this convo going to get?

If Tavares had decided to come here for league minimum, then it might be comparable.