The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[deprw]

The original discussion centered around the idea that basically, only results matter. Quinn and Fletcher got further, so they are better. I don't actually agree with that simplicity, but I have a hard time arguing Dubas is a better GM at this point in time. That may change, it may not.

I don't think your "context" changes very much. Dubas is doing an excellent job on the "trade away your draft picks" part. The salary cap is obviously totally different, but it's not like Dubas did not know the rules when he signed the contracts he signed, let free agents walk, and so on. I don't buy that he somehow has it much harder; if he does, so does every other GM.

Sure, it was a different time with different rules, but that does not mean it's harder for Dubas. All of the other GMs are playing by the same rules. Sure, the team has been a contender on paper for a number of years, but the 'on paper' has not translated to reality. You can only do that for so long before you have to conclude that maybe the team simply is not as good as we thought it was. Which is why he gets this coming season, but if they fail again, how can you say anything besides that this team just isn't that good?

Yeah, like said results wise they were better. I just think it's bad comparison, since you cannot have that approach now. If we could flex our financial muscle like Quinn could, we would be powerhouse in the league. We'd have our UFAs and so on, but it was different era and it was played by those rules. So also point taken.

We have been trading away draft picks, but were also adding other assets at the same time. Early 2000s we didn't have any long term thinking. It would be way easier to approach team building that way, something we can't do at this point every year like Quinn could and did.

We probably aren't as good as we would like to be, which is understatement. Though you can see outing for short and long term success, if our cards are played right by Dubas or someone else. We have healthy organizational structure and team that can be restructured different ways, if we decide to do so. That is something that we have lacked before and Dubas has done good work with that. We have no anchors at the moment or let say that Marner is our conundrum and it's great problem to have.

 

[hotpaws]

Yup as assistant GM, he took charge of the Marlies as part of his role. This is part of the normal role for AGMs throughout the league.

as per Dubas , Lou kicked him to the Marlies to learn the development side as his only role

 

[The CyNick]

Wouldn't have mattered if the double digits actually showed up with a purpose.

The Habs star players care about the outcome of the game. The Leafs guys don't.

 

[Leaf Fans]

as per Dubas , Lou kicked him to the Marlies to learn the development side as his only role

Only in your imagination.

 

[Gabriel426]

Why are we still on Dubas Vs Lou.
Lou been gone for 3 yrs.

Both of them done good and bad things as Leafs GM, just like any other GMs in the league.

They both have not done anything as Leafs GM. Making the playoffs is hardly an accomplishment considering half the league makes the playoffs every year.

 

[ULF_55]

The Habs star players care about the outcome of the game. The Leafs guys don't.

It could be that the Habs players had to fight to get to where they are because they weren't gifted with the abilities they've subsequently developed.

 

[The CyNick]

It could be that the Habs players had to fight to get to where they are because they weren't gifted with the abilities they've subsequently developed.

Give me the guys with heart any day

 

[hotpaws]

Only in your imagination.

as i said , Dubas literally said Lou sent him to the Marlies when he joined the team so spin away if it makes you feel better

 

[Leaf Fans]

as i said , Dubas literally said Lou sent him to the Marlies when he joined the team so spin away if it makes you feel better

One of the jobs of the AGM is running the farm team -that is not spin, but "....Lou kicked him to the Marlies as soon as he was hired" is spin.

 

[zeke]

Why are we still on Dubas Vs Lou.

Because some people keep insisting that Dubas inherited the best situation ever, when he obviously didn't.

 

[hotpaws]

One of the jobs of the AGM is running the farm team -that is not spin, but "....Lou kicked him to the Marlies as soon as he was hired" is spin.

for the third time

it was Dubas who said Lou kicked him to the Marlies

 

[Gabriel426]

Because some people keep insisting that Dubas inherited the best situation ever, when he obviously didn't.

No offence but that’s really petty for both sides.
TB GM inherited the best situation ever.

 

[Bomber0104]

Because some people keep insisting that Dubas inherited the best situation ever, when he obviously didn't.

Inheriting an 105-point team is light years better than inheriting a last place team.

This is, to any reasonable person reading this or who knows hockey or sports in general, quite obvious.

You're going against the current of course to defend Dubas (your avatar lol) and unsurprisingly have ignored all of the previous posts highlighting how ridiculous of an argument that is.

2+2 does not equal 5.

 

[Bomber0104]

One of the jobs of the AGM is running the farm team -that is not spin, but "....Lou kicked him to the Marlies as soon as he was hired" is spin.

Dubas' influence on the big team was removed with Lou coming in and taking the reigns with his own choice of AGM (Hunter).

Dubas could pittle around with his blog stats with the most expensive Marlie roster ever assembled.

And that's when the Leafs made their biggest measurable leaps and strides.

Coincidence?

Maybe.

But probably not.

 

[Gabriel426]

Like I posted earlier, Dubas inherited a much better team while Lou inherited a better situation.
Just leave it as that.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The old thread was closed at it's limit so enjoy . For my part the rumor that he was in discussions with PK Subban pretty much sums up his competency or lack there of . Looks like Arizona has dumped pretty much all the pieces we would want for very little return to our competitors so way to be " in on that Kyle " , I would have loved to take Dvorak off their hands .

The only piece Arizona dumped that I wanted was Garland

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If he can't get this team first in the division, fired.
If he can't get this team into the final four, fired.
If he can't sign Rielly to a Parayko deal, fired.
If Marner doesn't score 5+ goals in the playoffs, fired.
If he mortgages our future again, fired.

He backed himself into this corner.

The team doesn't need to finish 1st in the division that's unlikely because Tampa Bay exists.

If that gets him fired then fire him now.

I do believe he gets fired if they don't make the final 4

 

[Leaf Fans]

Dubas' influence on the big team was removed with Lou coming in and taking the reigns with his own choice of AGM (Hunter).

Dubas could pittle around with his blog stats with the most expensive Marlie roster ever assembled.

And that's when the Leafs made their biggest measurable leaps and strides.

Coincidence?

Maybe.

But probably not.

Sure, Hunter was supposed to draft draft and oversee player development when hired and got the formal title as AGM. He didn't develop well- as has been pointed out Dubas had to take that responsibility by taking over the Marlies, while Hunter focused on the Draft - his drafts produced very little as well. Yes, the Leafs made their biggest measurable leaps and strides drafting hunter and player development by Dubas.

 

[Bomber0104]

Sure, Hunter was supposed to draft draft and oversee player development when hired and got the formal title as AGM. He didn't develop well- as has been pointed out Dubas had to take that responsibility by taking over the Marlies, while Hunter focused on the Draft - his drafts produced very little as well. Yes, the Leafs made their biggest measurable leaps and strides drafting hunter and player development by Dubas.

Right so Dubas had absolutely no say in the Big Roster and was relegated to the Marlies...

So the Leafs biggest leaps in progress were made when Lou/Hunter had the reigns of the Big Roster and Dubas wasn't involved in any way and was relegated to working with the Marlies, etc.

I just want that point I was making to be clear and not be confuddled in follow-up run-on sentences.

Jacques Lemaire probably had more of an input than Dubas did during that time, to be honest

 

[Leaf Fans]

And when Dubas had absolutely no say in the Big Roster and was relegated to the Marlies...

So the Leafs biggest leaps in progress were made when Dubas wasn't involved and was relegated to working with the Marlies, etc.

I just want that point I was making to be clear and not be confuddled in follow-up run-on sentences.

You have no idea what say he had or didn't say in the big roster. When he was with the Marlies that is when Nylander, Brown, Hyman, Kapanen , and Gauthier all started to push and make impacts on the big club after being with the Marlies. While Hunter was drafting Mathews and Marner (shared credit for Marner) ( first round, but -I guess Hunter was drafting so he gets what ever credit there is I suppose he could have chose Laine Puji or Dubois),Rasanen, Gordeev and Mattinen among others - I don't remember them all.

 

[Bomber0104]

You have no idea what say he had or didn't say in the big roster. When he was with the Marlies that is when Nylander, Brown, Hyman, Kapanen , and Gauthier all started to push and make impacts on the big club after being with the Marlies. While Hunter was drafting Mathews and Marner (shared credit for Marner) ( first round, but -I guess Hunter was drafting so he gets what ever credit there is I suppose he could have chose Laine Puji or Dubois),Rasanen, Gordeev and Mattinen among others - I don't remember them all.

I'm not talking about drafting, in case that wasn't clear, and I'm not talking about Hunter either.

Stop moving the goalposts.

I'm talking about the Leafs and the Big Roster making their biggest move forward as an organization.

It happened with Lou in charge of the Big Roster and he didn't want Dubas around at all for that.

The Big Leap Forward happened when Lou was here, brought in his own like-minded assistants, had a HOF coach already here, with Kyle Dubas left to clean up the minor league with the most expensive AHL roster ever assembled.

Sorry, it's just what happened.

Dubas hasn't achieved anything better since Shanahan foolishly gave him the job.

You may "like" Dubas but it doesn't change what actually happened here.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I'm not talking about drafting, in case that wasn't clear, and I'm not talking about Hunter either.

Stop moving the goalposts.

I'm talking about the Leafs and the Big Roster making their biggest move forward as an organization.

It happened with Lou in charge of the Big Roster and he didn't want Dubas around at all for that.

The Big Leap Forward happened when Lou was here, brought in his own like-minded assistants, and Dubas got to clean up the minors with the most expensive AHL roster ever assembled.

Sorry, it's just what happened.

Dubas hasn't achieved anything since Shanahan foolishly gave him the job.

You may "like" Dubas but it doesn't change what actually happened here.

Ok so yoiur not talking about Hunter though you made the claim "Lou coming in and taking the reigns with his own choice of AGM (Hunter) " Though he was hired to "oversee their scouting and player development" in 2014. Yes, the The Big Leap Forward did happen with Lou as the GM and the player development by Dubas with the Marlies. Nylander, Brown, Hyman, Kapanen , and Gauthier all came up under Dubas with the Marlies. It had a huge impact on "The Big Leap Forward". No goal posts have been moved.

 

[Bomber0104]

Like I posted earlier, Dubas inherited a much better team while Lou inherited a better situation.
Just leave it as that.

The language you use to describe how well managers do, given their starting point, doesn't matter.

Lou improved this team dramatically from when he took over.

Dubas has not improved this team, at all, since when Lou took the team over.

This is assuming you want to see the Leafs win the Stanley Cup.

If you're interested in Northern Division crowns or President's trophy's, perhaps it's a different story.

 

[Gabriel426]

The language you use to describe how well managers do, given their starting point, doesn't matter.

Lou improved this team dramatically from when he took over.

Dubas has not improved this team, at all, since when Lou took the team over.

This is assuming you want to see the Leafs win the Stanley Cup.

If you're interested in Northern Division crowns or President's trophy's, perhaps it's a different story.

Like I said earlier, both Lou and Dubas had done nothing for the Leafs as their the Leafs is just a playoff teams.
The diff is Dubas is still GM and can still change his legacy.

 

[sparxx87]

I agree the divisions played a role for a lot of teams and it was definitely our easiest avenue in the playoffs as we knew we didn't have a power house to go up against in the first round. People in this thread keep on going on back and forth about Lou's 105pt record setting team vs Dubas 112pt pace this year and then try to use the easy division argument to knock the team this year. I find that to be bogus. Did we have to play against the 2 other power houses in the east? No. Did we get to play against 2 of the most garbage teams in the east? No. We played in a division that had 5 other teams (MTL, WIN, CGY, EDM,VAN) that all had playoff calibre rosters. Ottawa was expected to be the worst in the division and even they were tough to play against every night and were only the 9th worst team in the league. If anything I would say the leafs had a very average to deep division. You and I and everyone else can agree that until they have playoffs success that what they do during the regular season is pretty much irrelevant.

When I said balanced I mean offense, defense and goal. We still had a high scoring team, we defended very well this year (had 3 top pairing calibre dmen) and on paper had a good tandem in goal but ended up only getting good numbers from Campbell. As opposed to the teams we had under Lou,Burke and Nonis who had good offense but were train wrecks everywhere else. As far as your center argument. Yes that was a big blow but you can literally say that about any team in the league (except Tampa). What does Colorado have without Kadri, what does Boston have without Krejci, what do the Pens have without Malkin etc. Tampa is the only team in the league that had 4 top 6 quality centers (and they were 18M over the cap). I don't get the hate towards Kerfoot honestly. He isn't who i would choose as a 3C but he has some skill, works hard and is good defensively. He was our 2nd best forward in the playoffs (which says a lot about how our stars performed).

I think theres a few different ways you can look at how the realignment may have affected teams, but you can't really say 'pace' in a closed division is the same measure as totals over an entire regular season played under normal circumstances. Pace seems to be creatively used when two things don't measure equally. I don't care to debate the handicapping because I just don't care about regular season stuff. Again, 82 practices.

Yeah, the defense was good, not great. A little soft and a little mistake prone but better than previous years. The problem was not being able to score so while Dubas has undoubtedly improved the blueline over the past two years, it's come at the expense of depth and talent at forward. Net even. You could argue positive, I'll buy it if/when they can beat Columbus or Montreal in the playoffs.

Not just Tampa. although their forward group with 6-7 forwards that can pass at centre gives Cooper one of the most enviable setups you'll ever see. Boston lost Krejci this year and Haula isn't going to fill those shoes, but previously they acquired Charlie Coyle who you love as your 3C but can pass as a 2 if injuries arise. Islanders as well - Barzal, Nelson, Pageau, Cizkas is arguably the best and most versatile 4 man unit. And he added Zajac as well, which gave the coach 5 good centremen, a great advantage if you're trying to mix lines or hunt matchups.

No hate towards Kerfoot, but hes a better winger than centre and isn't worth anywhere close to $3.5M. And I'd probably agree he was one of the top 3-4 forwards in the playoffs, and thats why the Leafs fell so hard. If he's your 3-4 instead of 8,9,10, your team isn't deep with talent.