The New and Improved , Kyle Dubas Discussion Thread

[sparxx87]

yep.

all these angry posters were praising dubas for "finally figuring out you need toughness!" at this point last year.

I can't speak for others, but I find debating the theories of roster construction some of the most fun conversations as a sports fan. Trying to build a winner with this team/cap structure sits up with the Philadelphia 76'ers as the most intriguing 'fix the flawed team' discussion to be had IMO.

And the toughness was a welcome addition and encouraging to see... but some still didn't like the depth and balance.

 

[zeke]

Yep, he really set the table well for him

what did he put on the table for him, exactly?

 

[Stephen]

Yep, he really set the table well for him as well as Tavares falling into his lap.
Dubas still has time though to make the most of this good fortune.

I expanded on the original thought but the whole Lou vs Dubas regime change thing is always a little bit overstated since they would have collaborated the whole time.

One such Throughline I’d point to is the fact that the Leafs once pursued Joe Thornton AND Patrick Marleau to come to Toronto. Marleau is obviously characterized like some Lou poison pill due to the cap dominos that followed but if they weren’t on the same page on a lot of these roster construction items, why did the Leafs revisit Thornton many years later under Dubas? What about a guy like Wayne Simmonds? That’s a Lou special under different branding.

 

[zeke]

I expanded on the original thought but the whole Lou vs Dubas regime change thing is always a little bit overstated since they would have collaborated the whole time.

One such Throughline I’d point to is the fact that the Leafs once pursued Joe Thornton AND Patrick Marleau to come to Toronto. Marleau is obviously characterized like some Lou poison pill due to the cap dominos that followed but if they weren’t on the same page on a lot of these roster construction items, why did the Leafs revisit Thornton many years later under Dubas? What about a guy like Wayne Simmonds? That’s a Lou special under different branding.

Lou in fact offered Thornton a similar $6m multi year deal that he gave to Marleau.

Nothing remotely similar to Kyle adding him for league minimum.

 

[sparxx87]

Yeah I added more after the fact. Burkes downfall was two things- inability to draft, and a disastrous calendar year of Oct 08- Oct 09. Beauchemin was good, there was the Bozak recruitment, but other than those and the nobrainer deadline deals it was like we were bleeding organizational talent in the name of rebranding.

Yeah. I don't know for certain, but I always felt like he let his ego and stubbornness get in the way too often. Maybe he thought they were better than they were, maybe it was pressure from above, hard to say. I have a lot of questions about that era that will likely never be answered.

 

[Stephen]

yes, Lou inherited a no-brainer 1st overall pick in a generational draft. agreed.

Lou, Dubas, Hunter and Shanahan all collaborated on the 2015-16 last place finish…

 

[Stephen]

Lou in fact offered Thornton a similar $6m multi year deal that he gave to Marleau.

Nothing remotely similar to Kyle adding him for league minimum.

But why is he going after the same people?

 

[WTFMAN99]

Lou, Dubas, Hunter and Shanahan all collaborated on the 2015-16 last place finish…

No one told Kyle to trade the 4.5M 2nd line centre under contract long term and add an 11M 2nd line centre. Kyle had plenty of cap and everything he needed to construct the roster as he saw fit, he chose JT as one of the big pieces he wanted to add. Most general managers would have...but super risky with your big guys lacking their extensions. The risk blew up in Kyle's face.

 

[zeke]

Lou, Dubas, Hunter and Shanahan all collaborated on the 2015-16 last place finish…

yup.

Lou inherited a write off year from the start, along with some lottery luck, culminating in a no-brainer generational cornerstone.

 

[zeke]

No one told Kyle to trade the 4.5M 2nd line centre under contract long term and add an 11M 2nd line centre. Kyle had plenty of cap and everything he needed to construct the roster as he saw fit, he chose JT as one of the big pieces he wanted to add. Most general managers would have...but super risky with your big guys lacking their extensions. The risk blew up in Kyle's face.

the only thing that blew up in Kyle's face was Freddy Andersen.

 

[WTFMAN99]

the only thing that blew up in Kyle's face was Freddy Andersen.

Lou left him with McBackUp...he chose Sparks...not having a competent back up for a while there definitely hurt.

Matthews coming in for money between Eichel and McDavid was expected...getting 3 less years on the contract was not expected.

Marner on an RFA contract getting more money than any other winger in the league and also not max term was not expected. Those blew up in his face and the pressure would be a lot less if Matthews & Marner had 5-6 more years under contract than the 3 Matthews currently has.

It's fine, I expect Dubas will be let go after this season because they're either not making it at all or will get stomped by one of Tampa or Boston in the first round.

 

[zeke]

Lou left him with McBackUp...he chose Sparks...not having a competent back up for a while there definitely hurt.

Yep, and McBackup was never repeating that career year he had for us, either.

Matthews coming in for money between Eichel and McDavid was expected...getting 3 less years on the contract was not expected.

Marner on an RFA contract getting more money than any other winger in the league and also not max term was not expected. Those blew up in his face and the pressure would be a lot less if Matthews & Marner had 5-6 more years under contract than the 3 Matthews currently has.

And both finished top-5 in scoring this year.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yep, and McBackup was never repeating that career year he had for us, either.



And both finished top-5 in scoring this year.

How much better was McBackUp than Sparks the following year?

I couldn't find Matthews or Marner in the top 5, sorry.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No one told Kyle to trade the 4.5M 2nd line centre under contract long term and add an 11M 2nd line centre. Kyle had plenty of cap and everything he needed to construct the roster as he saw fit, he chose JT as one of the big pieces he wanted to add. Most general managers would have...but super risky with your big guys lacking their extensions. The risk blew up in Kyle's face.

This. No matter how much people here like or don't like the moves he makes, how they turn out is on him and so far, things aren't exactly working out well.

Lou left him with McBackUp...he chose Sparks...not having a competent back up for a while there definitely hurt.

Matthews coming in for money between Eichel and McDavid was expected...getting 3 less years on the contract was not expected.

Marner on an RFA contract getting more money than any other winger in the league and also not max term was not expected. Those blew up in his face and the pressure would be a lot less if Matthews & Marner had 5-6 more years under contract than the 3 Matthews currently has.

It's fine, I expect Dubas will be let go after this season because they're either not making it at all or will get stomped by one of Tampa or Boston in the first round.

This also. I can give forgive him for Matthews, after all he's the franchise. The Marner contract though, just wow! That was definitely his biggest WTF moment, at least from where I sit. It's one of those things where I remember where I was and what I was doing when I heard the news, and it's not memorable in a good way.

 

[Sypher04]

Lou left him with McBackUp...he chose Sparks...not having a competent back up for a while there definitely hurt.

Matthews coming in for money between Eichel and McDavid was expected...getting 3 less years on the contract was not expected.

Marner on an RFA contract getting more money than any other winger in the league and also not max term was not expected. Those blew up in his face and the pressure would be a lot less if Matthews & Marner had 5-6 more years under contract than the 3 Matthews currently has.

It's fine, I expect Dubas will be let go after this season because they're either not making it at all or will get stomped by one of Tampa or Boston in the first round.

why exactly are we still acting like Boston is some force to be reckoned with? They are no better than we are.

 

[WTFMAN99]

why exactly are we still acting like Boston is some force to be reckoned with? They are no better than we are.

When we actually beat them, we can talk.

Until then, they've beaten us 3 series in a row, stay humble.

 

[egd27]

Lou did.

Opening night 2015.....Lou's "inherited" team.

Much better than the 105 point team Dubas inherited.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Opening night 2015.....Lou's "inherited" team.

You inherit more than just the players on an opening night roster.

 

[Stephen]

I find any attempt to draw a hard line between the Lamoriello and Dubas eras to be unconvincing. It’s clearly just the Shanaplan in action evidenced by the fact that the same core has been here throughout and their regular and postseason performances have been similar. To characterize 2016-18 as the “bad old days” Kyle had to shovel out of just doesn’t pass the smell test.

 

[4thline]

This also. I can give forgive him for Matthews, after all he's the franchise. The Marner contract though, just wow! That was definitely his biggest WTF moment, at least from where I sit. It's one of those things where I remember where I was and what I was doing when I heard the news, and it's not memorable in a good way.

IMO anyone who lumps the AM contract in with the MM is displaying massive ignorance. Matthews had a blank cheque. That McDavid played nice on his blank cheque was only going to have as much impact as Matthews let it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

When we actually beat them, we can talk.

Until then, they've beaten us 3 series in a row, stay humble.

I agree, humble is good. If I have to pick a team though, I take us over Boston without thinking about it too hard. But I wouldn't go bragging about how we're going to beat them on the main boards, that's for damn sure.

Gotta stay humble until we actually win something. Assuming that ever happens of course (taking humble to a new level LOL).

 

[WTFMAN99]

I find any attempt to draw a hard line between the Lamoriello and Dubas eras to be unconvincing. It’s clearly just the Shanaplan in action evidenced by the fact that the same core has been here throughout and their regular and postseason performances have been similar. To characterize 2016-18 as the “bad old days” Kyle had to shovel out of just doesn’t pass the smell test.

Marleau's contract sucked but he had enough to add JT, he wasn't strapped for cash.

Dubas made great additions to the blue line in Muzzin and Brodie.

A lot of players have walked for nothing under Dubas

The team appears to be drafting better under Dubas

I'd argue as well that while the Leafs made the playoffs and we lost in 6 games to the Caps, the pressure wasn't really there. We also went to 7 games against Boston and I felt we were the under dogs.

Dubas takes over...signs JT...we still had Kadri, I felt like we were on a level playing field with the Bruins. We had a 3-2 series lead, we choked it.

We lost in the qualifying round to CBJ...a team we were better than.

We just pissed away a 3-1 series lead vs the Habs.

I feel like Dubas's playoff resume and time with the Leafs is far more disappointing than Lou's.

I agree, humble is good. If I have to pick a team though, I take us over Boston without thinking about it too hard. But I wouldn't go bragging about how we're going to beat them on the main boards, that's for damn sure.

Gotta stay humble until we actually win something. Assuming that ever happens of course (taking humble to a new level LOL).

I would definitely keep my mouth shut until we accomplish something.

 

[Gary Nylund]

IMO anyone who lumps the AM contract in with the MM is displaying massive ignorance. Matthews had a blank cheque. That McDavid played nice on his blank cheque was only going to have as much impact as Matthews let it.

Yup. My hope is that unless we win the cup very soon, M&M will feel like they owe us something and don't take us to town on their next deals. I'm not counting on it by any means but I'm allowed to hope.

 

[4thline]

Yup. My hope is that unless we win the cup very soon, M&M will feel like they owe us something and don't take us to town on their next deals. I'm not counting on it by any means but I'm allowed to hope.

If cap projections are accurate, a good relationship is in place/they want to stay, and they negotiate in good faith you'd think AM gets a slight raise on an 8 year deal.

 

[WTFMAN99]

If cap projections are accurate, a good relationship is in place/they want to stay, and they negotiate in good faith you'd think AM gets a slight raise on an 8 year deal.

8 years at 11.75M full NMC, signing bonuses, structure etc anyway he wants

Marner, 8 years at 10.5M - ditto signing bonuses structure etc...provided his ego can handle that it's not as much as what Matthews makes.