The Jarmo Thread

[Viqsi]

So you guys think we consciously decided to build a team with no centers and atrocious defense because we figured that was a good plan (mixed in with a couple of trade requests and injuries)?

I think those are the guys we got because they're the parts of the plan we could reasonably acquire at the time.

 

[BB88]

It’s weird that they are rebuilding and the future looks brighter than ever yet there’s no plan and everyone should get fired.

 

[NotCommitted]

For every Victor Hedman or Dustin Byfuglien there is a Tyler Myers and 12 guys who wish they were Tyler Myers. I don't want Tyler Myers. I don't think height is a good criteria to build around. It's a bonus. There has been some awesome very tall D-men and I guess there still are some, but most of the best D-men these days seem to be more like 5'11" to 6'3" or something. I don't know when 6'2" became "small", but I'm old and if I went to South-East Asia, I would be even somewhat tall.

 

[Monk]

Personally, I think they do have an overarching plan (uptempo speed skill game), but some of the critical assets are still lacking and that has me occasionally questioning its viability.

Well yeah, I think it's frankly absurd to suggest otherwise. Trying to be diplomatic

 

[Viqsi]

Well yeah, I think it's frankly absurd to suggest otherwise. Trying to be diplomatic

Fair enough, I think there is evidence in the current roster and prospect acquisitions to presume a probable destination (I mentioned it in that post), but I fear that some of the necessary extra players that we don't yet have tend to be unicorns and so we may have committed ourselves to a play style that we can't actually execute.

That said, there's opportunities for those unicorns to show up (if some development goes well and some drafting goes our way). And Kekalainen has made me look like an idiot before. So I'm mostly crossing fingers and hoping I'm overly worried without cause. But it's still on my mind.

 

[Monk]

Fair enough, I think there is evidence in the current roster and prospect acquisitions to presume a probable destination (I mentioned it in that post), but I fear that some of the necessary extra players that we don't yet have tend to be unicorns and so we may have committed ourselves to a play style that we can't actually execute.

That said, there's opportunities for those unicorns to show up (if some development goes well and some drafting goes our way). And Kekalainen has made me look like an idiot before. So I'm mostly crossing fingers and hoping I'm overly worried without cause. But it's still on my mind.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, it's the "not getting those parts automatically means GM = bad" part that I quibble with.

Just as a very specific example as to what I mean, and this isn't really for your sake since I think we're mostly saying the same thing... Pretend I'm one of those individual unicorns and I'm a free agent, like a Gaudreau-level player. I, Monk, would take less money to play in a city other than Columbus. Did Jarmo do a bad job? No. It has literally nothing to do with Jarmo.

And then multiply that fake scenario by a thousand similar real life scenarios, and we have the opinion that Jarmo is doing a bad job. At least that opinion is slightly more nuanced than "no cup = bad" tho I guess.

 

[Viqsi]

I don't necessarily disagree with this, it's the "not getting those parts automatically means GM = bad" part that I quibble with.

Just as a very specific example as to what I mean, and this isn't really for your sake since I think we're mostly saying the same thing... Pretend I'm one of those individual unicorns and I'm a free agent, like a Gaudreau-level player. I, Monk, would take less money to play in a city other than Columbus. Did Jarmo do a bad job? No. It has literally nothing to do with Jarmo.

And then multiply that fake scenario by a thousand similar real life scenarios, and we have the opinion that Jarmo is doing a bad job. At least that opinion is slightly more nuanced than "no cup = bad" tho I guess.

I wouldn't say it automatically means such, but it could indicate a bad job on Kekalainen's part by basically trying to adopt a plan that had no reasonable chance of success. I'd also say that a GM that puts all their hopes on winning a #1 overall pick would be similarly negligent, for example. (I do not believe Kekalainen's doing that here, for the record. )

From the outside, I can see why some folks might think Kekalainen's already committed that variety of egregious error. (I think - and I invite him to correct me if I'm wrong - that @majormajor is veering towards this assessment, for example.) I'm trying to reserve judgement because frankly he's pulled off other things that I thought were absurd or not realistically possible before and so maybe he's got a better grasp w/r/t the feasibility of the path he's chosen.

So I do think there's a legit argument to be made w/r/t Kekalainen's viability as GM. I just also think 1) it's a bit too soon to say for sure and 2) there are a metric f***ton of really really shitty arguments also out there.

 

[Monk]

So I do think there's a legit argument to be made w/r/t Kekalainen's viability as GM. I just also think 1) it's a bit too soon to say for sure and 2) there are a metric f***ton of really really shitty arguments also out there.

100% agree with this.

 

[koteka]

It’s weird that they are rebuilding and the future looks brighter than ever yet there’s no plan and everyone should get fired.

Our defense is awful. We don’t have a goalie. We don’t have a 1c. We don’t have a 2c. We have some very good wings and some very promising prospects and a pretty high draft puck this year. I don’t think our future is brighter than ever. I don’t see a plan or if there is a plan, I don’t see one that will yield a team than can compete for Stanley Cups. You can say “But Johnson will be one of our top centers and we’ll draft another top center this year and Tarasov is a future #1 goalie and Jiricek will fix the defense and we can sign a free agent or trade the LA pick to help too and everything is great next year.” And I’ll say, “I really hope that all works out, but I am very skeptical, and I am ready to move on from our front office and see what someone else can do.”

I have been a Jarmo fan, I fully believe he should get another GM job in the future, but I am ready to move on.

 

[koteka]

I wouldn't say it automatically means such, but it could indicate a bad job on Kekalainen's part by basically trying to adopt a plan that had no reasonable chance of success. I'd also say that a GM that puts all their hopes on winning a #1 overall pick would be similarly negligent, for example. (I do not believe Kekalainen's doing that here, for the record. )

From the outside, I can see why some folks might think Kekalainen's already committed that variety of egregious error. (I think - and I invite him to correct me if I'm wrong - that @majormajor is veering towards this assessment, for example.) I'm trying to reserve judgement because frankly he's pulled off other things that I thought were absurd or not realistically possible before and so maybe he's got a better grasp w/r/t the feasibility of the path he's chosen.

So I do think there's a legit argument to be made w/r/t Kekalainen's viability as GM. I just also think 1) it's a bit too soon to say for sure and 2) there are a metric f***ton of really really shitty arguments also out there.

This is where I was last spring. I was excited with our draft and excited with the Gaudreau signing. But at some point early in the season I started to doubt Jarmo/JD are the guys for the job anymore. As the season went on I flipped and decided we need to clean house. I am still optimistic about the future given some of the pieces we have in place. I’ll give plenty of credit to Jarmo for putting some important pieces in place. I would be more optimistic if new leadership came in and evaluated everyone associated with the team (players and staff), made some hard choices, and led the team hopefully forward to a bright future.

 

[BB88]

Our defense is awful. We don’t have a goalie. We don’t have a 1c. We don’t have a 2c. We have some very good wings and some very promising prospects and a pretty high draft puck this year. I don’t think our future is brighter than ever. I don’t see a plan or if there is a plan, I don’t see one that will yield a team than can compete for Stanley Cups. You can say “But Johnson will be one of our top centers and we’ll draft another top center this year and Tarasov is a future #1 goalie and Jiricek will fix the defense and we can sign a free agent or trade the LA pick to help too and everything is great next year.” And I’ll say, “I really hope that all works out, but I am very skeptical, and I am ready to move on from our front office and see what someone else can do.”

I have been a Jarmo fan, I fully believe he should get another GM job in the future, but I am ready to move on.

So you just automatically assume the worst out of everything and ignore all the positives they’ve done just because?

 

[koteka]

So you just automatically assume the worst out of everything and ignore all the positives they’ve done just because?

I fully acknowledge the great job Jarmo did. He has some great instincts. I said he reacts very well. I just don’t see a plan that leads to this team a Cup. I don’t see any plan. Maybe he has a plan I so fundamentally disagree with that I am giving him the benefit of the doubt by thinking he has no plan. I hope we fire him, another team (in the Western Conference) hires him, and he does a good job for that team. I also hope we replace him with someone who can lead this team to a Cup. I have no malice. If Jarmo isn’t fired, I hope he does a great job with the CBJ. I am not going to burn a jersey or start cheering for another team. I just think things are not as rosy as others believe, and I think it is time to change leadership. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[NotCommitted]

Well, every GM makes mistakes, I don't think Jarmo has yet done the type that make you give a boot to the GM, at least not in my book but that's a matter of opinion. A year ago the common perception seemed to be Zito is performing wizardry at Florida, couple genius moves in the off-season later and he took a presidents winner into a bubble team. As of now, personally I think replacing Jarmo with a random GM, you're more likely to downgrade than upgrade.

 

[Monk]

I fully acknowledge the great job Jarmo did. He has some great instincts. I said he reacts very well. I just don’t see a plan that leads to this team a Cup. I don’t see any plan. Maybe he has a plan I so fundamentally disagree with that I am giving him the benefit of the doubt by thinking he has no plan. I hope we fire him, another team (in the Western Conference) hires him, and he does a good job for that team. I also hope we replace him with someone who can lead this team to a Cup. I have no malice. If Jarmo isn’t fired, I hope he does a great job with the CBJ. I am not going to burn a jersey or start cheering for another team. I just think things are not as rosy as others believe, and I think it is time to change leadership. Is that so hard to understand?

Only speaking for myself, I assumed no malice on your part. I just was reeeeally struggling to follow how your logic led to your conclusion. I still don't quite follow it. That's OK. We can disagree and still all be equal fans & internet friends

 

[koteka]

Only speaking for myself, I assumed no malice on your part. I just was reeeeally struggling to follow how your logic led to your conclusion. I still don't quite follow it. That's OK. We can disagree and still all be equal fans & internet friends

Maybe I think the future doesn’t look as bright as others do here. Maybe others see a plan because they think we are close to having a good team and Jarmo is pulling it off. And I see no plan because I don’t think we are that close to having a competitive team and I now think a Buffalo level 10 years of suckitude is a possibility. (I think it is only a small possibility, but I didn’t think becoming Buffalo level bad was a possibility last year.)

 

[Monk]

Maybe I think the future doesn’t look as bright as others do here. Maybe others see a plan because they think we are close to having a good team and Jarmo is pulling it off. And I see no plan because I don’t think we are that close to having a competitive team and I now think a Buffalo level 10 years of suckitude is a possibility. (I think it is only a small possibility, but I didn’t think becoming Buffalo level bad was a possibility last year.)

I just have to ignore all the 'plan' parts of your posts I guess. If Jarmo isn't making plans, then he should be fired. I see no evidence to suggest that and can't for the life of me figure out how you're getting there. There's no way the dude isn't planning stuff.

I still feel like you did last year. This year they're worse than I thought they'd be, but not in a sky is falling sort of way. Lots of positives. I want Jarmo to have (at least) 2 more seasons and then reevaluate. In a year and a half, we may look back on this year as a fantastic step in the rebuild.

 

[stevo61]

This draft can change everything for some. The D needs tweeks until the kids are ready from starring roles but still the D prospects pool is among the best im the league. If we draft 1 of the 3 centers this year our center depth goes from embarrasing to elite in short order. Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson-Johnson is top end. The sting of Sillinger's poor season is still here but we cant forget how young he is and can still easily be a solid middle 6 center.

We have high end wingers in place with Gaudreau and Laine. We have good but more complimentary wingers like Marchenko and Jenner assuming he goes back to LW if we get our center. We have some wildcards in Chinakhov, Texier and Voronkov also.

Sprinkle in some boom or bust prospects like Dumais, LDBB and Iavanov. Its not a bad place to be.

Its not hard to see the style of team Jarmo wants to build and its a fast, skilled team that comes in waves. The roster obviously needs work but help is on the way and we also have lots of cap space and trade chips

We may find ourselves down the line in a similar situation to where Tampa once was having the skill in place but not the grit. Its expensive but a lot easier to find the grit than the high end skill

 

[majormajor]

If we had reached a bit on Bischel over Mateychuk what emotion would you have felt?

Joy.

I had Mateychuk 7th and Bichsel and Ostlund right after him in the top ten.

 

[squashmaple]

I implore you all to go look at posts and threads on Colorado's board for this exact time in 2017 and see how many users are calling Sakic an incredible dunce who was a good player but who had no business as a GM. It's very easy to look around in the middle of the mess and say what a failure it is. Unfortunately, building a winner isn't something that happens instantly (unless you happen to be located in NYC where multiple stars ONLY want to play).

The mistake, in my opinion, would be to give up now and clean house. That just resets the rebuild back three years. Let JD/Jarmo ride out their contracts and keep amassing assets. If we're in the same place in 2025, put them out with the trash.

The time to fire Jarmo was in 2020. Now that a rebuild has begun, no point in Buffaloing it. Make damn sure it is in fact a failure first.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Not including the portion of the 12-13 season in which he was hired (didn't want to do the work), the CBJ aggregate regular season record under Jarmo is:

777 GP

373 wins
323 losses
81 loser points

Effectively 373-404 which equates to a .480 winning percentage.

One playoff series victory. No, the play-in round doesn't count.
No first or second place divisional finishes
One 4th overall finish-which isn't even a top 10% finish.

Can anyone name another GM with this type of resume who got to stay on the job for 11 years?

 

[CBJx614]

Not including the portion of the 12-13 season in which he was hired (didn't want to do the work), the CBJ aggregate regular season record under Jarmo is:

777 GP

373 wins
323 losses
81 loser points

Effectively 373-404 which equates to a .480 winning percentage.

One playoff series victory. No, the play-in round doesn't count.
No first or second place divisional finishes
One 4th overall finish-which isn't even a top 10% finish.

Can anyone name another GM with this type of resume who got to stay on the job for 11 years?

People keep saying this but it seems the NHL thinks otherwise

 

[Viqsi]

This is where I was last spring. I was excited with our draft and excited with the Gaudreau signing. But at some point early in the season I started to doubt Jarmo/JD are the guys for the job anymore. As the season went on I flipped and decided we need to clean house. I am still optimistic about the future given some of the pieces we have in place. I’ll give plenty of credit to Jarmo for putting some important pieces in place. I would be more optimistic if new leadership came in and evaluated everyone associated with the team (players and staff), made some hard choices, and led the team hopefully forward to a bright future.

I'd say that's fair. I think it's too soon to come to that conclusion, and you evidently feel differently. This makes you a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE PERSON HOW DARE YOU just shows that reasonable people can disagree.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

See how I dropped out of this thread and everything just worked itself out?

That's some next-level modding right there.

 

[Monstershockey]

People keep saying this but it seems the NHL thinks otherwise

Its really no different than strike years. That is how the season turned out, Columbus had a good enough record to qualify according to the rules, so it's a playoff appearance, no matter how any one wants to try and discount it. If they would have won it all that year, no one would be questioning it.

 

[CBJx614]

Its really no different than strike years. That is how the season turned out, Columbus had a good enough record to qualify according to the rules, so it's a playoff appearance, no matter how any one wants to try and discount it. If they would have won it all that year, no one would be questioning it.

Well....people love to question TBs cup.