The Jarmo Thread

[CBJWerenski8]

I’m not going to pick sides but this is how I feel.

1. I do agree that Jarmo did not anticipate us being this bad. He stressed many times this was a “reset” not a “rebuild.” I do believe he will chalk up a large part of this season due to injuries. (3 headed monster. Injuries, goaltending, and defense.) was the Reset not Rebuild moniker just for the public and privately they were rebuilding? Maybe. But I don’t believe that to be the case personally.

2. The jackets are basically trying to mirror the NYR rebuild as Viqsi said. They’ve picked high two (and will be three) years in a row. They’ve had multiple firsts three straight seasons (as of now. Likely to change this offseason).

3. I don’t think Jarmo thought we were going to make it in this year but I think he thought we’d be close. Similar to where the red wings or Sabres are right now. I believe at the deadline when discussing the trades he said they are “a year behind schedule” and then said he expected us to be “competitive” And “on the doorstep” next year with the playoffs coming the year after.

 

[koteka]

3. I don’t think Jarmo thought we were going to make it in this year but I think he thought we’d be close. Similar to where the red wings or Sabres are right now. I believe at the deadline when discussing the trades he said they are “a year behind schedule” and then said he expected us to be “competitive” And “on the doorstep” next year with the playoffs coming the year after.

So, part of the awareness of how good the Jackets will be has to account for the other teams.

The Penguins and Capitals are finally showing their age. Philly sucks. The Islanders are as unpredictable as ever. Carolina, New Jersey, and New York look like playoff locks for the next few seasons. So I think 4th in the Metro is best that can be hoped for in the. Next 2 or 3 seasons, barring crazy injuries.

Meanwhile the Atlantic has Boston and Toronto. They could both hit salary cap / free agent / retirement issues but I expect them to be playoff teams the next couple of years. The Lightning aren’t going anywhere. The Panthers are unpredictable. Then you have 4 teams on the upswing or about the same spot as the CBJ - Buffalo (they could be the best team in the East in a few years if things work out), Ottawa (ahead of us), Detroit (ahead of us), and Montreal (on par with us).

So I don’t see us realistically competing for a playoff spot soon. We might be able to jump Philly, Pittsburgh, Washington, and maybe the Islanders and Panthers. But then we will be fighting with other teams like Detroit, Ottawa, and Montreal do the wildcard spots.

My prediction (and a lot could change) in a couple of years is the playoff teams will be

Metro playoff teams - NJ, Carolina, Rangers
Atlantic payoff teams - Tampa, Buffalo, Toronto, Boston

decent chance to get that last spot - Detroit, Ottawa, Florida
small chance to get a playoff spot - Islanders, Pittsburgh, Capitals, CBJ, Montreal
hopeless - Flyers

 

[Cowumbus]

1. I do agree that Jarmo did not anticipate us being this bad. He stressed many times this was a “reset” not a “rebuild.” I do believe he will chalk up a large part of this season due to injuries. (3 headed monster. Injuries, goaltending, and defense.) was the Reset not Rebuild moniker just for the public and privately they were rebuilding? Maybe. But I don’t believe that to be the case personally.

Like.

3. I don’t think Jarmo thought we were going to make it in this year but I think he thought we’d be close.

This is my point all along, pretty much.

Similar to where the red wings or Sabres are right now. I believe at the deadline when discussing the trades he said they are “a year behind schedule” and then said he expected us to be “competitive” And “on the doorstep” next year with the playoffs coming the year after.

Pretty much spot on.

Basically my point is that I’m not going to be “applauding” Jarmo for some grand rebuilding master plan when he built a team that wasn’t very good to begin with, with huge flaws across various positions, and overestimated their abilities. He expected the team to be good enough that they were done collecting high value picks and would take strides moving forward.

Could this year be huge for our franchise? Yes, absolutely. But that is not due to Jarmo’s planning. We are extremely “fortunate” to be in this position. We might finally get a C, something Jarmo has not managed to do through the rebuild (I realize KJ could play C). We do not have Championship level centers in the organization, but this year might change it.

In summary, it seemed like Jarmo was fine with the roster we had moving forward - and I think that is a poor judgment/planning.

 

[stevo61]

Like.

This is my point all along, pretty much.

Pretty much spot on.

Basically my point is that I’m not going to be “applauding” Jarmo for some grand rebuilding master plan when he built a team that wasn’t very good to begin with, with huge flaws across various positions, and overestimated their abilities. He expected the team to be good enough that they were done collecting high value picks and would take strides moving forward.

Could this year be huge for our franchise? Yes, absolutely. But that is not due to Jarmo’s planning. We are extremely “fortunate” to be in this position. We might finally get a C, something Jarmo has not managed to do through the rebuild (I realize KJ could play C).

We do not have Championship level centers in the organization, but this year might change it. In summary, it seemed like Jarmo was fine with the roster we had moving forward - and I think that is a poor judgment/planning.

Almost noone plans to be bad, sometimes it happens. Colorado didnt plan to have a 48 point season or whatever it was that lead to drafting Makar. Didnt Philly finish last one year and in the Cup finals or something crazy the next year? Ottawa didnt think they were giving Colorado a 4th overall pick. Back in the day Toronto didnt think they were trading Hamilton and Seguin for Kessel but they did. I feel like similar things happen way more than you care to admit.

He thought a team that went from Bjorkstrand to Gaudreau and Gudbranson would atleast be equal or better, I dont think thats crazy because I did too

 

[EspenK]

3. I don’t think Jarmo thought we were going to make it in this year but I think he thought we’d be close. Similar to where the red wings or Sabres are right now. I believe at the deadline when discussing the trades he said they are “a year behind schedule” and then said he expected us to be “competitive” And “on the doorstep” next year with the playoffs coming the year after.

I'm with koteka on this issue. I definitely don't think we'll be anywere near the doorstep unless its the one heading out the back door. My fear is that Jarmo really believes this and won't stay the course to let the re-whatever develop as it should. I can see him trading for some declining veteran(s) believing he is the piece to put the Jackets into the playoffs and instead doom the re-whatever to becoming mired in a close but not quite there status for a long time.

 

[NotCommitted]

I don't quite understand the doom and gloom, last season they were 21st and in the mix for a wild card spot until TDL or so with a young team. In what universe do you go from that into full tank mode when you're already icing a young team and have lot of young players incoming and sign Gaudreau in the off-season? I just don't get what people think the "plan" should've been, how do you make that a tank team? I don't see a way, or even the why, yes if they were a veteran heavy team on a decline, then you sell everyone and start fresh, but with a young team, what were they supposed to do if not try to get better?

They were 'lucky' from tank perspective in that they started the season with a perfect shit storm of horrible goal tending, really bad puck luck in games they would've won 9/10 times and the new D-scheme that proved to be a disaster. That's growing pains for a young team and I really wish they had stayed healthy so they could've found their way out of that and have a proper development year and also see Larsen coach an NHL roster and what his answer to that start was going to be. It's too bad Korpisalo wasn't ready yet to play from the start, so they had to run with a spiraling out of control Elvis, but then again with the eventual injuries that ended up working in their favor, because even just getting good goaltending from the beginning, they'd probably be finishing now somewhere around 25th. This was a .500% team with Korpisalo in the net even with all the injuries.

People are putting way too much stock for the shitty 10 games or so to start the season when they were actually somewhat healthy, like that was somehow more indicative of the teams current level than the 82-games the previous season. Even established good teams have a shitty 10 game runs like that.

 

[majormajor]

I don't quite understand the doom and gloom, last season they were 21st and in the mix for a wild card spot until TDL or so with a young team. In what universe do you go from that into full tank mode when you're already icing a young team and have lot of young players incoming and sign Gaudreau in the off-season? I just don't get what people think the "plan" should've been, how do you make that a tank team? I don't see a way, or even the why, yes if they were a veteran heavy team on a decline, then you sell everyone and start fresh, but with a young team, what were they supposed to do if not try to get better?

They were 'lucky' from tank perspective in that they started the season with a perfect shit storm of horrible goal tending, really bad puck luck in games they would've won 9/10 times and the new D-scheme that proved to be a disaster. That's growing pains for a young team and I really wish they had stayed healthy so they could've found their way out of that and have a proper development year and also see Larsen coach an NHL roster and what his answer to that start was going to be. It's too bad Korpisalo wasn't ready yet to play from the start, so they had to run with a spiraling out of control Elvis, but then again with the eventual injuries that ended up working in their favor, because even just getting good goaltending from the beginning, they'd probably be finishing now somewhere around 25th. This was a .500% team with Korpisalo in the net even with all the injuries.

People are putting way too much stock for the shitty 10 games or so to start the season when they were actually somewhat healthy, like that was somehow more indicative of the teams current level than the 82-games the previous season. Even established good teams have a shitty 10 game runs like that.

I sometimes wonder if we're overstating the impact of the injuries. Most of the guys f***ing up from game 10 to 82 are on the starting roster. Gudbranson and Peeke have at times been worse than any call-up. Jake Bean was never good to begin with.

 

[tunnelvision]

I believe at the deadline when discussing the trades he said they are “a year behind schedule” and then said he expected us to be “competitive” And “on the doorstep” next year with the playoffs coming the year after.

I don't recall reading or hearing any of this, was it a Porty article? I'm trying to find it but no luck so far.

 

[NotCommitted]

I sometimes wonder if we're overstating the impact of the injuries. Most of the guys f***ing up from game 10 to 82 are on the starting roster. Gudbranson and Peeke have at times been worse than any call-up. Jake Bean was never good to begin with.

Even if those guys were to suck anyway, that still leaves Werenski as a big loss, Blankenburg looked really good before injuries messed him up, Boqvist is not well rounded but he's still been a positive in the 40+ games he has played, assuming Voracek would've got back to his level from last season he'd been a big boost to the offense, Danforth would've been a great guy to bring some balance into the line up and having Korpisalo for the whole season would've been huge, though he was a question mark to begin with so in a way he doesn't count Then there's all the smaller injuries that go more into normal "shit happens" territory, but added to the long term ones they've been devastating as well.

I think they were going to struggle defensively anyway, the D-group is simply not ready and Gudbranson didn't provide any help, but I have no doubt they would've been significantly better without the injuries. Werenski would've been a big boost offensively and bumped everyone one spot down the depth chart, which would've helped. With that start, I doubt they would've been fighting for a playoff spot, but then again the boost they got with Korpi led to play .500% hockey even now with him, so who knows what the mid-season would've looked like if they actually had even a remote chance.

All things considered, if I had to guess I think it would've been a disappointing season, but more like not improving from last year or a slight regression, landing somewhere around 80-points instead of <60, but we'll never know. I just think the team from year before was impressive all things considered and I have faith this team would've had a good chance of finding their way out without the injuries. It's all what ifs now but things don't happen in a vacuum and the 1st line for example despite the bad start looked like they could go on a tear any moment, but then Laine got injured and a few games later they lost Werenski for the season and at point I'm sure every one knew they were pretty much done for, no matter how hard some players tried to put a brave face on it and talk about how important it would be to keep grinding some wins.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

You guys are failing to grasp the point. If Jarmo’s plan was to rebuild, you don’t do that by signing a franchise winger, and trying to be better.

you're conflating rebuilding with tanking.

rebuilding literally is trying to get better over the long run. signing a franchise winger to a 7-year deal helps achieve that.

 

[Cowumbus]

you're conflating rebuilding with tanking.

rebuilding literally is trying to get better over the long run. signing a franchise winger to a 7-year deal helps achieve that.

No. Tanking is what Chicago did. I understand the differences.

A 'rebuilding' team means that the franchise is going through a losing stretch that's expected, because it doesn't have the tools needed to be competitive. Usually this occurs after a team’s core fails to win or cannot be kept together. Thus during a rebuild:

• Expensive free agents are avoided.
• Young kids are given a better chance to play, to see if they're going to work out.
• Overall team salary tends to be low
• Valuable players in their prime are sold for future picks or younger less established pieces.
• First round picks are not traded

*******

If Jarmo thought our rebuild could be “complete” after 2 high OA drafts and signing Gaudreau, I think that’s a huge problem - and everything I have seen is this to be the case. Again he said it was a retool! If Jarmo actually gets the Chychrun deal to go through (12OA - Mayeychuk + something) and everyone stays healthy this year we are picking at 10OA-13OA again in 2023. How does that help the franchise now or in the future?

Even if everyone hits their upside do you really think Jiricek, Johnson and Sillinger are enough to make us a contender and finish the rebuild? Good teams are built through the draft across 5ish years.

 

[NotWendell]

I've been on record for the past couple years saying Jarmo needs to be sacked. Nothing has changed my mind so far.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I don't recall reading or hearing any of this, was it a Porty article? I'm trying to find it but no luck so far.

It was a Bally sports Ohio interview after the deadline. Like during an intermission.

 

[tunnelvision]

It was a Bally sports Ohio interview after the deadline. Like during an intermission.

Do you remember how confident did he sound in stating that? "we could probably be a year behind" or was it more like "no question we're a year behind"?

Anyways thanks for sharing.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Do you remember how confident did he sound in stating that? "we could probably be a year behind" or was it more like "no question we're a year behind"?

Anyways thanks for sharing.

I’m trying like hell to find it. It’s either been removed or was never posted. I could have sworn I did post video of it though. I’ll keep looking.

He was pretty stern. I don’t want to say he was “down” but it clearly wasn’t a fun interview for him. He was pretty matter of fact about it

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Still can't find the video but there's this tweet to prove I'm not totally insane and he actually did say it:



EDIT: I FOUND IT!!

 

[EspenK]

Still can't find the video but there's this tweet to prove I'm not totally insane and he actually did say it:



EDIT: I FOUND IT!!

Fool us once, shame on you...fool us twice(100x's) shame on us.

 

[majormajor]

Even if those guys were to suck anyway, that still leaves Werenski as a big loss, Blankenburg looked really good before injuries messed him up, Boqvist is not well rounded but he's still been a positive in the 40+ games he has played, assuming Voracek would've got back to his level from last season he'd been a big boost to the offense, Danforth would've been a great guy to bring some balance into the line up and having Korpisalo for the whole season would've been huge, though he was a question mark to begin with so in a way he doesn't count Then there's all the smaller injuries that go more into normal "shit happens" territory, but added to the long term ones they've been devastating as well.

I think they were going to struggle defensively anyway, the D-group is simply not ready and Gudbranson didn't provide any help, but I have no doubt they would've been significantly better without the injuries. Werenski would've been a big boost offensively and bumped everyone one spot down the depth chart, which would've helped. With that start, I doubt they would've been fighting for a playoff spot, but then again the boost they got with Korpi led to play .500% hockey even now with him, so who knows what the mid-season would've looked like if they actually had even a remote chance.

All things considered, if I had to guess I think it would've been a disappointing season, but more like not improving from last year or a slight regression, landing somewhere around 80-points instead of <60, but we'll never know. I just think the team from year before was impressive all things considered and I have faith this team would've had a good chance of finding their way out without the injuries. It's all what ifs now but things don't happen in a vacuum and the 1st line for example despite the bad start looked like they could go on a tear any moment, but then Laine got injured and a few games later they lost Werenski for the season and at point I'm sure every one knew they were pretty much done for, no matter how hard some players tried to put a brave face on it and talk about how important it would be to keep grinding some wins.

I think without the injuries it's still the worst defense and goaltending, and there's zero cycle or possession game up front. They still get beat by everyone in the conference. I'm guessing closer to 70 pts than 80 or 60.

 

[BB88]

So a re-tool. Which is what Jarmo had said the entire time.

Bruh

There are different types of rebuilds than just full fire sale rebuilds.

Columbus has traded PLD, Savard, Foligno, Jones& had 5 1st round picks for 2021-22 drafts and werent’ rebuilding?

Sure

 

[Cowumbus]

There are different types of rebuilds than just full fire sale rebuilds.

Columbus has traded PLD, Savard, Foligno, Jones& had 5 1st round picks for 2021-22 drafts and werent’ rebuilding?

Sure

I’m not sure why you have such a condescending attitude about this.

 

[BB88]

I’m not sure why you have such a condescending attitude about this.

Had Jackets had 5 1st round picks in 2021-22 before landing Gaudreau?

Were Johnson& Jiricek drafted with the mindset they’ll be cornestone players for Columbus moving forward?

If you agree you agree it being a rebuild.
This is not that difficult

Gm’s overall hate to use the word rebuild in public

 

[majormajor]

Gm’s overall hate to use the word rebuild in public

I agree and the word has different meanings depending on each person you ask. May I suggest that the next time you have this debate you leave out the "rebuild or retool" part. It seems like the more central questions here are "what kind of team did Jarmo think we'd have this year" and "where did Jarmo see this year being in the long term plan", and you can talk about that without the rebuild/retool confusion.

 

[BB88]

I agree and the word has different meanings depending on each person you ask. May I suggest that the next time you have this debate you leave out the "rebuild or retool" part. It seems like the more central questions here are "what kind of team did Jarmo think we'd have this year" and "where did Jarmo see this year being in the long term plan", and you can talk about that without the rebuild/retool confusion.

My guess:
High end ceiling- could flirt with a WC race in the 1st half
Realistic end position- 10th overall pick

With this year being mainly as a development year and figure out the defense this summer, get a better feel of what you have and what you need to address.
Be a playoff team next year.
Be a contender in 2024-25 season.

They had to know the limitations of the roster and be realistic about it. They had had to trade their 1C and 1D and hadn’t replaced them from the market, but from the draft.

They were a young team, which more often than not tend to be more inconsistent (Buffalo/Detroit/Ottawa).
They also had to know the top of the East is extremely good.

No one in the management is a rookie, they know better. You can’t rush development.

 

[CBJx614]

Nvm.

 

[5th Line Fanatic]

My guess:
High end ceiling- could flirt with a WC race in the 1st half
Realistic end position- 10th overall pick

With this year being mainly as a development year and figure out the defense this summer, get a better feel of what you have and what you need to address.
Be a playoff team next year.
Be a contender in 2024-25 season.

They had to know the limitations of the roster and be realistic about it. They had had to trade their 1C and 1D and hadn’t replaced them from the market, but from the draft.

They were a young team, which more often than not tend to be more inconsistent (Buffalo/Detroit/Ottawa).
They also had to know the top of the East is extremely good.

No one in the management is a rookie, they know better. You can’t rush development.

I have to believe, Jarmo thought they'd be at least as good as 2021-22 (10th in the East) after adding Johnny and Gudbranson and growth from the kids.