The Jarmo Thread
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Go check the hit leaders among defenseman, there's only 3 guys in the top 15 that are over 6'3 (Peeke is actually inside the top 20 and he's 6'3)
6'4 -6'6 dudes who can move and hit and ARENT pylons are far and few between. Yeah it's nice, but it doesn't mean that guys under that height aren't throwing big hits and playing proper D. It's more of the mindset of offensive player vs a defensive or physical player.
It's like saying you want a 6'6 quarterback so he can see over the line, yeah it's nice but that isn't a prerequisite to being a great QB.
koteka
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I say it is evidence that maybe they value such players more than other teams. Or when they have the opportunity to draft one and have him highest on their board, they make the move. (Instead of saying “let’s see if we can trade back 6-8 slots and get a player who fits our team better and another good draft pick.”) But I don’t think they have consciously decided to load up on that type of player or load up on wings instead of centers. I think they have made a series of independent movies that looked smart in isolation.
We've drafted a ton of offensive minded defenseman. And we have a ton of skill on the offense. My guess is we are going for a much more skilled based approach moving forward instead of the physical grind it out style we had with Folino and Dubi leading the way. It just didn't work this season because ALL of those skilled defenseman were hurt.
Double-Shift Lasse
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Sounds like the things you're saying aren't a plan are merely things that would not be your plan if you were in charge, but not necessarily evidence of a lack of a plan on the whole.
What he said.
And what you're providing as "evidence" isn't evidence. You have no evidence. I have no evidence. Join the team staff and get in the room and then give me your evidence.
koteka
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A big part of that is the fear of getting hit by a big guy changes what the forward does. If you have a solid 6’5” guy who can hit on that back end, it changes the behavior of the other team. So he doesn’t get the hits. Like the best corner backs often don’t get that many interceptions because people don’t throw the ball to the guy they are covering.
So you guys think we consciously decided to build a team with no centers and atrocious defense because we figured that was a good plan (mixed in with a couple of trade requests and injuries)?
Ceulemans is offensive minded. Jiricek has the potential to be great at just about everything including a bit of aggresion. Mateychuk is a 2 way guy who can move the puck at a high level either by passing or carrying the puck. 3 different skillsets and 3 useful skillsets. Svozil is a 3rd rounder and has been a beast in junior, if anyone thinks its all to do with Bedard then I ask you to watch a Pats game. The guys confidence to make plays is through the roof.
The days of needing a Chris Pronger or Scott Stevens are long gone. Would it be cool to have? Sure. Is it needed to win a Cup? Obviously not.
Going back to Knazko again makes as little sense as it did the 1st time. Hes 20 and in his 1st pro season after being in the CHL last year. Sweezy is 27 and the only reason he came up is because theyve already called up or tried Bayreuther, Christianson, Bjork, Berni and a couple games for Jiricek
The days of needing a Chris Pronger or Scott Stevens are long gone. Would it be cool to have? Sure. Is it needed to win a Cup? Obviously not.
Going back to Knazko again makes as little sense as it did the 1st time. Hes 20 and in his 1st pro season after being in the CHL last year. Sweezy is 27 and the only reason he came up is because theyve already called up or tried Bayreuther, Christianson, Bjork, Berni and a couple games for Jiricek
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So you think that we accumulated defenders who all are capable of playing a certain way was an accident?
Also didnt Jarmo used to get a ton of hate for drafting big defensive minded defensemen in the 2nd round like Collins, Heatherington and Peeke? Now we are pretending we want that again?
It's not just size though, its the mindsets of the players. If you're playing an opposing team and you know you're playing let's say Luke Schenn or Gudas, you know you're going to get hit. If KJ is on the offense and he sees a 6'5 defender out there, he knows he can more than likely use his speed and agility to get around or avoid him unless it's someone like Hedman(which are far a few between)
And just because someone is big doesn't mean they dish a lot of hits. Victor Hedman has only had 1 season with more than 100 hits. Sure it could be because people are afraid of him, but it's more likely his style of play isn't conducive to dishing a ton of hits.
What will always blow my mind, is having to trade Bjokstafnd because We needed cap space and then look at rosters of teams like Colorado, Tampa and then ours. Jk is one of the worse cap managers out there
Yeah lets look at the teams that make up the last 3 Cups and anything short of that is a failure. You do realize those teams bottomed out just like we are to build those teams right? It wasnt long ago Colorado had a worse season than this.
koteka
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As I have said twice, it was no accident. I think it was a series of individual decisions.
Just like acquiring Laine was an individual decision based on the circumstances at the time and acquiring Gaudreau was individual decision based on the circumstances at the time. There was no plan to go out and get Laine and there was no plan to sign Gaudreau.
The judgement that led to the individual moves was the same. But I don’t think there was a conscious choice to grab a bunch of smaller offensive minded guys who all play left D. I don’t think they sat in a room in 2019 and had a powerpoint and said “Over the next 4 draft let’s pick a bunch of smaller offensive minded left D.”
Anyway, people wanted other people to defend why they want Jarmo (and JD and Lars) fired. My reason (I have no evidence, @Monk) is that the team is poorly constructed and my suspicion is that the front office has been more reactive and there has not been a plan. If you want to argue they have a plan that I do not like, then the reason I want Jarmo and JD fired is that they are consciously following a plan that I think is stupid. Either way, I want to clean house. Is that ok? Have I justified my feelings on firing people enough whether there is no plan or a plan I think is stupid?
Or was Jarmo getting hate because in fact they were excellent picks but not developed correctly lol.
Both players stayed in their league for 2 seasons after being drafted and then went to our AHL team, what more do you want? The only one you can question is the Peeke during the covid year where he sat in taxi squad limbo
koteka
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While I agree on what you say, size is still important. Savard and Seth Jones weren’t fighters. But they really didn’t need to be fighters. When we were running Jones and Savard out 47 minutes per night, the Jackets D didn’t need to fight much. Because other teams knew a basic fact — you don’t poke the bear. In the off season we realized we had no bear. (Peeke is no bear.) So we added Olivier and Gudbranson - two moves that were widely bashed here. (Which I again would point to as reactive moves because we either have no plan or a bad plan for roster construction.)
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But it wasn't a plan?
Here is the lineup you bemoaned:
Werenski 6’2”, Jiricek 6’3”, Mateychuk 5’10”, Svozil 6’0”, Boqvist 5’11”, Peeke 6’3”, Bean 6’1”, Knazko 6’1”.
Can we discuss their handedness and how they were acquired?
Or more likely than being scared of Jones and Savard teams paid more mind to the guys up front like Foligno, Dubinsky, Dubois, Anderson etc during those years.
The Olivier pickup though has worked out better than any of us expected. That was a good move to address a very desperate need for a young team and hes not bad at hockey either
Plus former 1st rounder, 6'2" Ceulemans who was likely forgotten or maybe ignored in that original post
- I would also like harder tougher defensive D-men. Though I think a little too much is made of height.
- It is instructive that offensive D men were purged at the deadline in favor of defensive D. Barrie and Sandin got the boot, and no one particularly wanted Klingberg. There was actually a market for Luke Schenn.
- So of course we should want to draft the next Erik Cernak. Maybe Jakub Dvorak (6'5) or Maxim Strbak (6'2 and especially tough) will fit the bill.
- But let's think beyond height. Dmitri Orlov was the big prize at the deadline and he's about 5'11. Great defender. He's very thick and that helps. Do we know that Mateychuk, who has the same listed height, can't build that kind of strength? We don't know, and it is hard to know whether a soft kid like Savard turns into the man Savard. It would be great if Ceulemans could develop that way.
- Jiricek is not just 6'3, he's very nasty. Should be a huge pain to play against when he gets his man strength.
- Boqvist is for now that all offense player that gets passed around among non-playoff teams. Do we want him on the team when we finally make the playoffs? My guess is no.
- It is instructive that offensive D men were purged at the deadline in favor of defensive D. Barrie and Sandin got the boot, and no one particularly wanted Klingberg. There was actually a market for Luke Schenn.
- So of course we should want to draft the next Erik Cernak. Maybe Jakub Dvorak (6'5) or Maxim Strbak (6'2 and especially tough) will fit the bill.
- But let's think beyond height. Dmitri Orlov was the big prize at the deadline and he's about 5'11. Great defender. He's very thick and that helps. Do we know that Mateychuk, who has the same listed height, can't build that kind of strength? We don't know, and it is hard to know whether a soft kid like Savard turns into the man Savard. It would be great if Ceulemans could develop that way.
- Jiricek is not just 6'3, he's very nasty. Should be a huge pain to play against when he gets his man strength.
- Boqvist is for now that all offense player that gets passed around among non-playoff teams. Do we want him on the team when we finally make the playoffs? My guess is no.
Practically every action a GM takes, that is visible to you, is a 'reaction' to what happens in the real world. You can't materialize what you want simply because you have a plan. You don't think Jarmo 'planned' to sign some tougher players? The word 'plan' is starting to lose its meaning to me in this conversation, maybe you can define it for me.
I guess here's a summary of where I stand and then I can probably let it go, and I'm sure you'll think this sounds as crazy as I think your position sounds --
I think the results in the standings and the current roster construction does not indicate or reflect:
-A lack of plan
-What the plan is, if it exists
-Jarmo is doing a bad job
Yes, I think the team can be the worst in the league and the GM can still be doing a good (enough) job.
If we had reached a bit on Bischel over Mateychuk what emotion would you have felt?
I disagree on Boqvist depending on team makeup. Jiricek-Ceulemans-Boqvist isnt the best or worst depending on the left side. If it were Werenski-Gavrikov and another steady lefty it could make sense but hopefully being Werenski-Mateychuk-Prospect or steady vet it makes less sense. Boqvist could be a decent trade piece atleast
Viqsi
"that chick from Ohio"
Personally, I think they do have an overarching plan (uptempo speed skill game), but some of the critical assets are still lacking and that has me occasionally questioning its viability.
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