The Fate of Dubas

[Stephen]

This team looks smaller then last year, less competitive then last year, and less guys willing to go to the hard to play areas then last year.

Opponenets: Box out the middle of the net and let the Leafs try to finess their way out of the first round.

I’m hoping they get some more additions later in the summer, mix in a trade and bring up one key promotion. But like Colorado, Florida and Tampa the cap is really letting the air out of the tires here.

 

[TorMapleJays]

Not without his permission they don't. Any luck finding those examples I asked for?

Muzz was / is good.

I didnt mind the Campbell move

I was jacked for Johnny Toronto.

 

[Mess]

Part I - Management

The fate of Dubas and Leafs management has already been decided for this upcoming season, and there was only 1 person that mattered that cast the single vote and that is Shanahan.

He has already determined and notified Leafs Nation that Dubas and Keefe are returning, and he believes in them and so they will be "running it back 2023".

Period... End of Story !!!

Now Part II - The Team.

It does not take a Rocket Scientist based on Leafs moves being made to see what is happening now a few days into free agency. Outside of changing the goalies the Leafs are also "running it back 2023" with essentially the same team as last year (minus a few unavoidable departures through retirement and UFA affordability) .. These moves being made are fringe moves at best for 12/13th depth forwards and 7/8 Dman or Marlies supporting cast unless injury replacements, and will compete internally with Leafs prospect pool for a few limited roster spots available. If a trade possibility came along where Leafs could deal a roster player for another and if Leafs thought it made the team better of course it could happen, or if a RFA signing becomes difficult could it be resolved through trade of course, any roster is not locked entirely in stone, and has to reactive to change possibility and dynamic to opportunities as situations arise.

So therefore What You See Is What you Get !!

Period.. End if Story !!!

Conclusion

Dubas/Keefe believe in this team, this top heavy salary structure unlike any other team, which forces this team compilation due to salary cap constraints to become the haves and the have-nots structure.. While it might not take a Rocket Scientist to recognize it, having a 60 goal Rocket Richard winner, and 106 point Hart MVP player at your disposal can masks a lot of team building flaws by simply outscoring them, including questionable goaltending. It might even provide a false sense of competitiveness and team strength during the regular season.

The flaw is exposed come playoff time, because during the regular season you can string W and L's together in an order, as long as enough W's keep appearing in standings column, to secure a playoff spot, making the outcome all but meaningless otherwise. However an L in game #7 of any playoff round = end of season and end of story. So keeping Leafs highly paid players in check in elimination games of which Leafs are now 0-10 over the course of last 6 years and 0-6 in round #1 losses. This forces your goalie and support players into the spotlight of being the difference makers, and now is when the "have-nots" get exposed most. Its why the constant revolving door carousel of goalies and bottom depth players happens annually looking for a combo that will break through.

Its a rabbit hole created by investing tooooo much Salary Cap $$$ into tooooo few players, but won't change until management changes and addresses it, all because Dubas is toooo stubborn with his "We Can and We Will" stance to accept that its at the heart of Leafs playoff failure, despite being proven wrong with each passing round #1 loss.

Period .. End of Story !!!

 

[stealth1]

Part I - Management

The fate of Dubas and Leafs management has already been decided for this upcoming season, and there was only 1 person that mattered that cast the single vote and that is Shanahan.

He has already determined and notified Leafs Nation that Dubas and Keefe are returning, and he believes in them and so they will be "running it back 2023".

Period... End of Story !!!

Now Part II - The Team.

It does not take a Rocket Scientist based on Leafs moves being made to see what is happening now a few days into free agency. Outside of changing the goalies the Leafs are also "running it back 2023" with essentially the same team as last year (minus a few unavoidable departures through retirement and UFA affordability) .. These moves being made are fringe moves at best for 12/13th depth forwards and 7/8 Dman or Marlies supporting cast unless injury replacements, and will compete internally with Leafs prospect pool for a few limited roster spots available. If a trade possibility came along where Leafs could deal a roster player for another and if Leafs thought it made the team better of course it could happen, or if a RFA signing becomes difficult could it be resolved through trade of course, any roster is not locked entirely in stone, and has to reactive to change possibility and dynamic to opportunities as situations arise.

So therefore What You See Is What you Get !!

Period.. End if Story !!!

Conclusion

Dubas/Keefe believe in this team, this top heavy salary structure unlike any other team, which forces this team compilation due to salary cap constraints to become the haves and the have-nots structure.. While it might not take a Rocket Scientist to recognize it, having a 60 goal Rocket Richard winner, and 106 point Hart MVP player at your disposal can masks a lot of team building flaws by simply outscoring them, including questionable goaltending. It might even provide a false sense of competitiveness and team strength during the regular season.

The flaw is exposed come playoff time, because during the regular season you can string W and L's together in an order, as long as enough W's keep appearing in standings column, to secure a playoff spot, making the outcome all but meaningless otherwise. However an L in game #7 of any playoff round = end of season and end of story. So keeping Leafs highly paid players in check in elimination games of which Leafs are now 0-10 over the course of last 6 years and 0-6 in round #1 losses. This forces your goalie and support players into the spotlight of being the difference makers, and now is when the "have-nots" get exposed most. Its why the constant revolving door carousel of goalies and bottom depth players happens annually looking for a combo that will break through.

Its a rabbit hole created by investing tooooo much Salary Cap $$$ into tooooo few players, but won't change until management changes and addresses it, all because Dubas is toooo stubborn with his "We Can and We Will" stance to accept that its at the heart of Leafs playoff failure, despite being proven wrong with each passing round #1 loss.

Period .. End of Story !!!

I agree. Everyone likes to compare the Leafs to the Caps in how long it took them to win. The difference is they decided that Backstrom and Ovi were the guys and everyone else was changed out til they found the core that worked. What should have happened already is Dubas picks his 2 guys out the big 4 to build around and the other 2 are out the door. Use that money to upgrade in net and get that top minute eating defenseman.

 

[Stephen]

Part I - Management

The fate of Dubas and Leafs management has already been decided for this upcoming season, and there was only 1 person that mattered that cast the single vote and that is Shanahan.

He has already determined and notified Leafs Nation that Dubas and Keefe are returning, and he believes in them and so they will be "running it back 2023".

Period... End of Story !!!

Now Part II - The Team.

It does not take a Rocket Scientist based on Leafs moves being made to see what is happening now a few days into free agency. Outside of changing the goalies the Leafs are also "running it back 2023" with essentially the same team as last year (minus a few unavoidable departures through retirement and UFA affordability) .. These moves being made are fringe moves at best for 12/13th depth forwards and 7/8 Dman or Marlies supporting cast unless injury replacements, and will compete internally with Leafs prospect pool for a few limited roster spots available. If a trade possibility came along where Leafs could deal a roster player for another and if Leafs thought it made the team better of course it could happen, or if a RFA signing becomes difficult could it be resolved through trade of course, any roster is not locked entirely in stone, and has to reactive to change possibility and dynamic to opportunities as situations arise.

So therefore What You See Is What you Get !!

Period.. End if Story !!!

Conclusion

Dubas/Keefe believe in this team, this top heavy salary structure unlike any other team, which forces this team compilation due to salary cap constraints to become the haves and the have-nots structure.. While it might not take a Rocket Scientist to recognize it, having a 60 goal Rocket Richard winner, and 106 point Hart MVP player at your disposal can masks a lot of team building flaws by simply outscoring them, including questionable goaltending. It might even provide a false sense of competitiveness and team strength during the regular season.

The flaw is exposed come playoff time, because during the regular season you can string W and L's together in an order, as long as enough W's keep appearing in standings column, to secure a playoff spot, making the outcome all but meaningless otherwise. However an L in game #7 of any playoff round = end of season and end of story. So keeping Leafs highly paid players in check in elimination games of which Leafs are now 0-10 over the course of last 6 years and 0-6 in round #1 losses. This forces your goalie and support players into the spotlight of being the difference makers, and now is when the "have-nots" get exposed most. Its why the constant revolving door carousel of goalies and bottom depth players happens annually looking for a combo that will break through.

Its a rabbit hole created by investing tooooo much Salary Cap $$$ into tooooo few players, but won't change until management changes and addresses it, all because Dubas is toooo stubborn with his "We Can and We Will" stance to accept that its at the heart of Leafs playoff failure, despite being proven wrong with each passing round #1 loss.

Period .. End of Story !!!

Well, keep in mind, Washington picked up Kuznetsov, Holtby, Carlson, Wilson, Burakovsky in the draft during their rise in the standings (and Forsberg too) and made moves to get Oshie who is an outer core piece.

So unless those Dubas drafts start producing some heavy hitters and award winners the comparison dies out.

I’m concerned we’re more like the 2000s Ottawa Senators. Dubas should know better since he’s reportedly a Sens fan growing up, but look how a deep program built on skill and depth and speed couldn’t figure out their playoff success and long term goaltending and atrophied into a one line Pizza Line while bleeding out depth assets year after year? That’s my nightmare fuel.

 

[On-the-Fly]

It’s a reasonable explanation, but if we have to play pressure tactics to get Sandin signed in the $2 million range, what are we even doing with this kid? The Leafs development path for Sandin hasn’t been that structured or well thought out but it’s not like they did him wrong. Maybe he isn’t a soldier for us.

Shouldnt be understated how much of a failure this would be for Leaf management.

 

[Skullz]

Done with players of JT's stature, I don't think so. I'd love to be wrong though, can you give me an example or two?


I thought picking up Muzzin and Campbell from LA was good.

I would say we paid market value. Looking at what we paid I can't call it a win. I put it into the 'wash' / 'market value' category.

 

[Nineteen67]

Part I - Management

The fate of Dubas and Leafs management has already been decided for this upcoming season, and there was only 1 person that mattered that cast the single vote and that is Shanahan.

He has already determined and notified Leafs Nation that Dubas and Keefe are returning, and he believes in them and so they will be "running it back 2023".

Period... End of Story !!!

Now Part II - The Team.

It does not take a Rocket Scientist based on Leafs moves being made to see what is happening now a few days into free agency. Outside of changing the goalies the Leafs are also "running it back 2023" with essentially the same team as last year (minus a few unavoidable departures through retirement and UFA affordability) .. These moves being made are fringe moves at best for 12/13th depth forwards and 7/8 Dman or Marlies supporting cast unless injury replacements, and will compete internally with Leafs prospect pool for a few limited roster spots available. If a trade possibility came along where Leafs could deal a roster player for another and if Leafs thought it made the team better of course it could happen, or if a RFA signing becomes difficult could it be resolved through trade of course, any roster is not locked entirely in stone, and has to reactive to change possibility and dynamic to opportunities as situations arise.

So therefore What You See Is What you Get !!

Period.. End if Story !!!

Conclusion

Dubas/Keefe believe in this team, this top heavy salary structure unlike any other team, which forces this team compilation due to salary cap constraints to become the haves and the have-nots structure.. While it might not take a Rocket Scientist to recognize it, having a 60 goal Rocket Richard winner, and 106 point Hart MVP player at your disposal can masks a lot of team building flaws by simply outscoring them, including questionable goaltending. It might even provide a false sense of competitiveness and team strength during the regular season.

The flaw is exposed come playoff time, because during the regular season you can string W and L's together in an order, as long as enough W's keep appearing in standings column, to secure a playoff spot, making the outcome all but meaningless otherwise. However an L in game #7 of any playoff round = end of season and end of story. So keeping Leafs highly paid players in check in elimination games of which Leafs are now 0-10 over the course of last 6 years and 0-6 in round #1 losses. This forces your goalie and support players into the spotlight of being the difference makers, and now is when the "have-nots" get exposed most. Its why the constant revolving door carousel of goalies and bottom depth players happens annually looking for a combo that will break through.

Its a rabbit hole created by investing tooooo much Salary Cap $$$ into tooooo few players, but won't change until management changes and addresses it, all because Dubas is toooo stubborn with his "We Can and We Will" stance to accept that its at the heart of Leafs playoff failure, despite being proven wrong with each passing round #1 loss.

Period .. End of Story !!!

Maybe it’s just a case of too much salary to the wrong players?

 

[Skullz]

I know its still early but we need some more forwards. Jesus we're thin. It's a lot worse than last year at the moment. I hope we aren't just promoting marlies.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Go look for yourself.

Are you saying if they wanted to move him they wouldn’t? I know they’re weak people, but they can’t be that weak.

I don't think there are any examples, that's why asked. You're the who said it's been done before and like I said, I'm pretty sure that it hasn't happened with a player of JT's stature.

Not wouldn't, couldn't, not without his permission anyway.

I would say we paid market value. Looking at what we paid I can't call it a win. I put it into the 'wash' / 'market value' category.

That's fair I guess, at the time I believe I said it was a good trade for both teams.

 

[Nineteen67]

I don't think there are any examples, that's why asked. You're the who said it's been done before and like I said, I'm pretty sure that it hasn't happened with a player of JT's stature.

Not wouldn't, couldn't, not without his permission anyway.


That's fair I guess, at the time I believe I said it was a good trade for both teams.

Players haven’t been moved with a NTC? Who cares about the players stature?


Yes, getting the permission is the reason youre even conversing with him in the first place. Because management and the team is the boss in this situation they’re telling him what’s going to happen.

If they wanted to move JT, they will, regardless of your silly world

 

[Mess]

I agree. Everyone likes to compare the Leafs to the Caps in how long it took them to win. The difference is they decided that Backstrom and Ovi were the guys and everyone else was changed out til they found the core that worked. What should have happened already is Dubas picks his 2 guys out the big 4 to build around and the other 2 are out the door. Use that money to upgrade in net and get that top minute eating defenseman.

The plan in Toronto is doing the same thing, over and over and over again and expecting different results, and ironically the results of constant playoff failure don't even matter to force change or alter course.

Lets just keep doing the same thing over and over and over until we get the results we want, & poor results be damned.

Some people learn from their mistakes, while some of those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.

Its insanity really !!!!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Players haven’t been moved with a NTC? Who cares about the players stature?

Yes, getting the permission is the reason youre even conversing with him in the first place. Because management and the team is the boss in this situation they’re telling him what’s going to happen.

If they wanted to move JT, they will, regardless of your silly world

His contract is such that they can't tell him shit. Not sure why you don't understand this, perhaps it's because you are living in some fantasy world while I on the other hand, am living in the real world.

Good talk.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I’m concerned we’re more like the 2000s Ottawa Senators. Dubas should know better since he’s reportedly a Sens fan growing up, but look how a deep program built on skill and depth and speed couldn’t figure out their playoff success and long term goaltending and atrophied into a one line Pizza Line while bleeding out depth assets year after year?

They so remind me of that Sens team. And Leaf fans would make fun of those regular season champs

 

[Suntouchable13]

I agree. Everyone likes to compare the Leafs to the Caps in how long it took them to win. The difference is they decided that Backstrom and Ovi were the guys and everyone else was changed out til they found the core that worked. What should have happened already is Dubas picks his 2 guys out the big 4 to build around and the other 2 are out the door. Use that money to upgrade in net and get that top minute eating defenseman.

It’s Matthews and Marner, but Marner is grossly overpaid IMO. By at least 2M when you look at what other guys have signed for. So I don’t know. I don’t think Ovi and Backstorm were ever considered so overpaid.

 

[Stephen]

Shouldnt be understated how much of a failure this would be for Leaf management.

Well, it all depends on what you get back for Sandin. But getting value in trade has never been a strong suit for this management staff. We always seem to pay full retail on everything.

 

[Stephen]

It’s Matthews and Marner, but Marner is grossly overpaid IMO. By at least 2M when you look at what other guys have signed for. So I don’t know. I don’t think Ovi and Backstorm were ever considered so overpaid.

Marner makes Batman money but would be better off in the Robin income bracket. Not that he isn’t dominant or generates a ton of offense but around the league he should not be slotted above Barkov, Rantanen, Kaprizov and that whole group of sub $10 million superstars. If he was signed to $9.5 million x 8 that would be a lot more comfortable.

 

[Notsince67]

It’s Matthews and Marner, but Marner is grossly overpaid IMO. By at least 2M when you look at what other guys have signed for. So I don’t know. I don’t think Ovi and Backstorm were ever considered so overpaid.

Evolving hockey has tkachuk projections at 11.27mm x 8 years. Despite a crazy career year for M-TK, he still lagged Marner in PPG. This 2mm number is just dumb.

 

[TorMapleJays]

It’s Matthews and Marner, but Marner is grossly overpaid IMO. By at least 2M when you look at what other guys have signed for. So I don’t know. I don’t think Ovi and Backstorm were ever considered so overpaid.

Marner f***ed this team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Evolving hockey has tkachuk projections at 11.27mm x 8 years. Despite a crazy career year for M-TK, he still lagged Marner in PPG. This 2mm number is just dumb.

I'd say Marner's best comparable is Rantanen and 2 million is accurate.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I don't want to cause friction on this Sandin issue, but can't they just play hardball with Sandin by trading him. They like him, but they certainly don't need him.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Part I - Management

The fate of Dubas and Leafs management has already been decided for this upcoming season, and there was only 1 person that mattered that cast the single vote and that is Shanahan.

He has already determined and notified Leafs Nation that Dubas and Keefe are returning, and he believes in them and so they will be "running it back 2023".

Period... End of Story !!!

Now Part II - The Team.

It does not take a Rocket Scientist based on Leafs moves being made to see what is happening now a few days into free agency. Outside of changing the goalies the Leafs are also "running it back 2023" with essentially the same team as last year (minus a few unavoidable departures through retirement and UFA affordability) .. These moves being made are fringe moves at best for 12/13th depth forwards and 7/8 Dman or Marlies supporting cast unless injury replacements, and will compete internally with Leafs prospect pool for a few limited roster spots available. If a trade possibility came along where Leafs could deal a roster player for another and if Leafs thought it made the team better of course it could happen, or if a RFA signing becomes difficult could it be resolved through trade of course, any roster is not locked entirely in stone, and has to reactive to change possibility and dynamic to opportunities as situations arise.

So therefore What You See Is What you Get !!

Period.. End if Story !!!

Conclusion

Dubas/Keefe believe in this team, this top heavy salary structure unlike any other team, which forces this team compilation due to salary cap constraints to become the haves and the have-nots structure.. While it might not take a Rocket Scientist to recognize it, having a 60 goal Rocket Richard winner, and 106 point Hart MVP player at your disposal can masks a lot of team building flaws by simply outscoring them, including questionable goaltending. It might even provide a false sense of competitiveness and team strength during the regular season.

The flaw is exposed come playoff time, because during the regular season you can string W and L's together in an order, as long as enough W's keep appearing in standings column, to secure a playoff spot, making the outcome all but meaningless otherwise. However an L in game #7 of any playoff round = end of season and end of story. So keeping Leafs highly paid players in check in elimination games of which Leafs are now 0-10 over the course of last 6 years and 0-6 in round #1 losses. This forces your goalie and support players into the spotlight of being the difference makers, and now is when the "have-nots" get exposed most. Its why the constant revolving door carousel of goalies and bottom depth players happens annually looking for a combo that will break through.

Its a rabbit hole created by investing tooooo much Salary Cap $$$ into tooooo few players, but won't change until management changes and addresses it, all because Dubas is toooo stubborn with his "We Can and We Will" stance to accept that its at the heart of Leafs playoff failure, despite being proven wrong with each passing round #1 loss.

Period .. End of Story !!!

Why do you keep saying "end of story"? Are you shutting down any more discussion?

 

[Racer88]

Why do you keep saying "end of story"? Are you shutting down any more discussion?

It’s a figure of speech. Lol

 

[Ianturnedbull]

It’s a figure of speech. Lol

Ok. I guess so.

 

[Nineteen67]

His contract is such that they can't tell him shit. Not sure why you don't understand this, perhaps it's because you are living in some fantasy world while I on the other hand, am living in the real world.

Good talk.

You live in a fantasy world. In the real world, if they we’re to decide they want to trade him, they will find a way trade him. Obviously he has to give them permission, but that’s easy enough to do, once they tell him their decision thats he’s not wanted.