The Fall of Pierre

[SensHulk]

Nick Paul wasn't going to do what he's doing now if he was still here. Beyond having better linemates in Tampa this team just does not seem conducive to maximizing player effectiveness.

Everyone seems to get worse while here and gets better when they leave. There's top to bottom rot in this organization.

He was still gonna do a lot better than what our bottom six is currently contributing. He might even have been able to step in to cover for Norris and keep Pinto on the 3rd line. It’s not exactly hindsight either, that’s what happens when you sacrifice depth

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Melnyk committed fraud once with his pharmaceutical company.

he also committed fraud when he made pierre dorion the head of a hockey club.

 

[Senator Stanley]

The organization he manages is once again in disarray. It's almost as if he's not capable of managing it.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

He looked like he was getting out of the way, it's not like he was getting over to cover a trailer since nobody else was coming, he just cleared the path to the net and abdicated responsibility to the backchecker. Sure, Chabot pinched and got caught deep, that's going to happen when your trailing in the third and have been struggling to score at ES.

Not seeing how anyone can defend how Holden played that.

Yeah, I guess my comment was more of a general one, not on that play despite the quote. He has looked slow.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I thought the entire idea of trading Paul was to replace him internally and use the cap space to improve the D.

That was something I was fine with, given that I didn't know Formenton was going to be out for the year and was hoping for a top 6 LW acquisition, which would have made Paul rather redundant, especially with Greig coming through the pipeline at LW potentially as soon as this year.

I can understand why Paul was dealt for Joseph. I assumed the idea was to get slightly younger and acquire a guy who could be a decent bottom 6er at a much lower price, but throwing 3M at Joseph (about the same as what Paul was asking for) after a 11 good games was really stupid and defeated the entire purpose of trading Paul in the first place.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

He looked like he was getting out of the way, it's not like he was getting over to cover a trailer since nobody else was coming, he just cleared the path to the net and abdicated responsibility to the backchecker. Sure, Chabot pinched and got caught deep, that's going to happen when your trailing in the third and have been struggling to score at ES.

Not seeing how anyone can defend how Holden played that.

Yup. Pretty black and white on that. He literally got out of the way and then took the penalty for good measure (weak call, but he put himself in that position).

 

[swiftwin]

I thought the entire idea of trading Paul was to replace him internally and use the cap space to improve the D.

That was something I was fine with, given that I didn't know Formenton was going to be out for the year and was hoping for a top 6 LW acquisition, which would have made Paul rather redundant, especially with Greig coming through the pipeline at LW potentially as soon as this year.

I can understand why Paul was dealt for Joseph. I assumed the idea was to get slightly younger and acquire a guy who could be a decent bottom 6er at a much lower price, but throwing 3M at Joseph (about the same as what Paul was asking for) after a 11 good games was really stupid and defeated the entire purpose of trading Paul in the first place.

Term is a huge huge factor here. You can't compare the AAV of a 25yr old getting a 4yr deal to a 27yr old getting a 7yr deal. Nick Paul won't be a $3M player when he's 32, 32, 34.

 

[Micklebot]

Term is a huge huge factor here. You can't compare the AAV of a 25yr old getting a 4yr deal to a 27yr old getting a 7yr deal. Nick Paul won't be a $3M player when he's 32, 32, 34.

When nick Paul is 33-34 the cap will probably over 100 mil, how far do you expect his game to drop off?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Term is a huge huge factor here. You can't compare the AAV of a 25yr old getting a 4yr deal to a 27yr old getting a 7yr deal. Nick Paul won't be a $3M player when he's 32, 32, 34.

7 years was from Tampa post playoffs he was not demanding that here

 

[swiftwin]

When nick Paul is 33-34 the cap will probably over 100 mil, how far do you expect his game to drop off?

Considering his game revolves around his speed and strength, probably quite a bit. Might need to get bought out.

This is Kyle Turris all over again. If there's one thing Dorion has been consistently good at it's selling high before a player hits a steep decline.

 

[Micklebot]

Considering his game revolves around his speed and strength, probably quite a bit. Might need to get bought out.

This is Kyle Turris all over again. If there's one thing Dorion has been consistently good at it's selling high before a player hits a steep decline.

3 mil isn't a big contract, and it will be even less so after 5 years of the cap going up, lots of players are fine at 32-34, I don't see any reason to assume he's going to be bought out that seems a bit extreme.

 

[coladin]

3 mil isn't a big contract, and it will be even less so after 5 years of the cap going up, lots of players are fine at 32-34, I don't see any reason to assume he's going to be bought out that seems a bit extreme.

For what he produced here, completely outrageous and screws up the pay scale for the rest of the team

 

[swiftwin]

3 mil isn't a big contract, and it will be even less so after 5 years of the cap going up, lots of players are fine at 32-34, I don't see any reason to assume he's going to be bought out that seems a bit extreme.

I'll say it again. Come back in a few years.

Paul's game revolves around his speed and strength. His defensive awareness is good, but his offensive IQ is not. Everything about his game hinges on his size and speed. Players who age well are players who play a cerebral game. That is not Paul.

 

[Wondercarrot]

View attachment 640106

I'll say it again. Come back in a few years.

Paul's game revolves around his speed and strength. His defensive awareness is good, but his offensive IQ is not. Everything about his game hinges on his size and speed. Players who age well are players who play a cerebral game. That is not Paul.

He was looking for 4 years $3 million /year from us and we said no - and instead then gave that deal to Joseph.
As it turns out Joseph provides nothing we need, and Paul provides exactly what we need. Not to mention by all accounts he practices and plays the right way every shift and was beloved by his teammates.

 

[KingAlfie11]

He was still gonna do a lot better than what our bottom six is currently contributing. He might even have been able to step in to cover for Norris and keep Pinto on the 3rd line. It’s not exactly hindsight either, that’s what happens when you sacrifice depth

I like Paul but if he's your 2C you're in trouble, Pinto makes a better 2C then Paul

 

[DaveMatthew]

For what he produced here, completely outrageous and screws up the pay scale for the rest of the team

I love these takes. I remember when people said the same thing about Demelo. "You can't pay him $3M for 4 years! He won't be good when he's 30!"

We could have had:

20/21 - Demelo at $3M
21/22 - Demelo at $3M
22/23 - Demelo at $3M
23/24 - Demelo at $3M

Instead we had:

20/21 - Gudbranson at $4M
21/22 - Del Zotto at $2M
22/23 - Hamonic at $3M + $500k for Del Zotto buyout
23/24 - TBD + $750k for Del Zotto buyout

We're going to end up spending more money on shittier players, and have fewer draft picks!

Sometimes, you're better off just hanging onto the player who fits in well and is asking for a reasonable salary. But it was par for the course for Dorion. Why give Duclair $3M when you can give Dadonov $5M!

 

[swiftwin]

I like Paul but if he's your 2C you're in trouble, Pinto makes a better 2C then Paul

Exactly. Paul was our 2C early last season and it was clear that he was in way over his head.

 

[KingAlfie11]

He was looking for 4 years $3 million /year from us and we said no - and instead then gave that deal to Joseph.
As it turns out Joseph provides nothing we need, and Paul provides exactly what we need. Not to mention by all accounts he practices and plays the right way every shift and was beloved by his teammates.

How old is Joseph again? 25 he's still young

 

[swiftwin]

I love these takes. I remember when people said the same thing about Demelo. "You can't pay him $3M for 4 years! He won't be good when he's 30!"

We could have had:

20/21 - Demelo at $3M
21/22 - Demelo at $3M
22/23 - Demelo at $3M
23/24 - Demelo at $3M

Instead we had:

20/21 - Gudbranson at $4M
21/22 - Del Zotto at $2M
22/23 - Hamonic at $3M + $500k for Del Zotto buyout
23/24 - TBD + $750k for Del Zotto buyout

We're going to spend more money on shittier players.

Sometimes, you're better off just hanging onto the player who fits in well and is asking for a reasonable salary. But it was par for the course for Dorion. Why give Duclair $3M when you can give Dadonov $5M!

Not the same thing at all. In fact, I was quite critical of the DeMelo move, and I believe it was one of Dorion's bigger mistakes.

DeMelo at 30 is nothing compared to Paul at 34.

 

[DaveMatthew]

View attachment 640106

I'll say it again. Come back in a few years.

Paul's game revolves around his speed and strength. His defensive awareness is good, but his offensive IQ is not. Everything about his game hinges on his size and speed. Players who age well are players who play a cerebral game. That is not Paul.

Someone should tell Pierre, because just last year, he traded a 3rd round pick for a 31-year-old Travis Hamonic.

But we can't sign Nick Paul at 26 years old to a 4 year deal... he's too old.

Not the same thing at all. In fact, I was quite critical of the DeMelo move, and I believe it was one of Dorion's bigger mistakes.

DeMelo at 30 is nothing compared to Paul at 34.

Paul was asking for a 4-year deal from Ottawa, which would have taken him to age 30. Not 34.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Exactly. Paul was our 2C early last season and it was clear that he was in way over his head.

He's still better than any of our current bottom 6 players.

You need to have space in your cap structure to keep some good proven bottom 6 players. Our bottom 6 is awful and it is a huge problem at the moment.

We could and should have kept Paul and traded Brown.

Granted. I wasn't displeased with the Paul trade at the time but it has turned out to be a real stinker for us.

EDIT: We should have known that Joseph was a dud the moment Dorion spoke about Joseph being what made him pull the trigger.

 

[swiftwin]

But we can't sign Nick Paul at 26 years old to a 4 year deal... he's too old.

We're talking about the 7yr deal right now, not the 4 year deal.

I'm sure Tampa would have loved to extend him for 4 years right before he exploded in the playoffs too...

 

[DaveMatthew]

We're talking about the 7yr deal right now, not the 4 year deal.

I'm sure Tampa would have loved to extend him for 4 years right before he exploded in the playoffs too...

The deal he signed with Tampa is irrelevant to the conversation about whether Ottawa should have signed Paul instead of trading him for and extending Joseph.

Paul was never seeking a 7-year deal from Ottawa.

But the fact that an organization like Tampa was more than happy to give Paul a 7-year deal at 3.15M and played him 17+ minutes a night in playoff games, while they had no problem trading Joseph who was routinely a healthy scratch for them in the playoffs, doesn't bode well for your argument that we made a good move in the swap.

 

[swiftwin]

The deal he signed with Tampa is irrelevant to the conversation about whether Ottawa should have signed Paul instead of trading him for and extending Joseph.

Paul was never seeking a 7-year deal from Ottawa.

It is relevant because it proves that Paul's value increased tremendously with that playoff run.

We said no to 4 years in 2021, when he was on our 2nd line and looked dreadful.

 

[swiftwin]

Someone should tell Pierre, because just last year, he traded a 3rd round pick for a 31-year-old Travis Hamonic.

...whose contract is expiring at the end of the year! That's the point! Dorion traded a draft asset for cap flexibility. Future cap flexibility has value. We're a young team on the rise. We absolutely can not afford to have anchor contracts when our young core players are at their peak.

The deal he signed with Tampa is irrelevant to the conversation about whether Ottawa should have signed Paul instead of trading him for and extending Joseph.

Paul was never seeking a 7-year deal from Ottawa.

But the fact that an organization like Tampa was more than happy to give Paul a 7-year deal at 3.15M and played him 17+ minutes a night in playoff games, while they had no problem trading Joseph who was routinely a healthy scratch for them in the playoffs, doesn't bode well for your argument that we made a good move in the swap.

Let's review this in 3-4 years.