The Fall of Pierre

[DaveMatthew]

...whose contract is expiring at the end of the year! That's the point! Dorion traded a draft asset for cap flexibility. Future cap flexibility has value. We're a young team on the rise. We absolutely can not afford to have anchor contracts when our young core players are at their peak.

What? He traded a draft asset to add a player and salary. He did not trade a draft pick to move out a contract and increase flexibility.

Trading a 3rd + Zaitsev for Hamonic would be what you're describing. But that's not what it was.

 

[swiftwin]

What? He traded a draft asset to add a player and salary. He did not trade a draft to move out a contract and increase flexibility.

No. He traded a draft pick to acquire a flexible contract.

 

[DaveMatthew]

No. He traded a draft pick to acquire a flexible contract.

Lol.

He added an obligation. He did not shed one.

Acquiring Hamonic did not, in any way, increase cap flexibility for future years. It had zero impact.

 

[swiftwin]

Lol.

He added an obligation. He did not shed one.

Acquiring Hamonic did not, in any way, increase cap flexibility for future years. It had zero impact.

Not having to pay him for future years is literally maximum flexibility.

So who do you pay to be the 2RD instead of Hamonic, while maintaining maximum flexibility for future years?

Here's a list of 1 or 2yr deals handed out to defensemen in the last 2 years who are currently active. How many of them would you rather have instead of Hamonic? Also, how much more would you pay them to lure them here instead of the team they actually signed for?

There are one or two gems in there, like Gustafsson, who's had a nice resurgence.

Otherwise, it's pretty slim pickings. Especially if you exclude LDs and players re-signing with their previous team.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Not having to pay him for future years is literally maximum flexibility.

So who do you pay to be the 2RD instead of Hamonic, while maintaining maximum flexibility for future years?

Here's a list of 1 or 2yr deals handed out to defensemen in the last 2 years who are currently active. How many of them would you rather have instead of Hamonic? Also, how much more would you pay them to lure them here instead of the team they actually signed for?
View attachment 640130

There are one or two gems in there, like Gustavsson, who's had a nice resurgence.

Otherwise, it's pretty slim pickings. Especially if you exclude LDs and players re-signing with their previous team.

This year? We could have just gone with Zub - Zaitsev - JBD on the right side. The guys we had, if a clear upgrade wasn't available. Keep the 3rd.

"We know he's not that good but he fills a short-term hole so let's get him for a pick." We should stop doing that.

Pierre Dorion loves to make moves. But more often than not, "do nothing" is the right move.

 

[Xspyrit]

I'm not sure I want Greig to come into this mess... I'd rather him to stay away and "pure"

If you guys have heard the coming in hot podcast….Jon Cooper told Bobby Ryan ‘what was ottawa thinking giving up on Paul?’

Total inability to evaluate talent at the NHL level. I hope Balcers finally stays healthy for them, could be another pleasant surprise (particularly for the cost)

He was still gonna do a lot better than what our bottom six is currently contributing. He might even have been able to step in to cover for Norris and keep Pinto on the 3rd line. It’s not exactly hindsight either, that’s what happens when you sacrifice depth

It was another easy call on another thing that would blow up in Dorion's face... That's why I got into debates when I criticized the Connor Brown trade. Was even worse when we were told the main reason Brown wanted out (Paul trade)

 

[swiftwin]

I'm incredibly amused with how people are hyper focused on a players' performance right now, while simultaneously hand waving away term on contracts because that's a future problem.

Definitely explain why, as a society, we have problems with consumerism and credit card debt, etc.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I'm incredibly amused with how people are hyper focused on a players' performance right now, while simultaneously hand waving away term on contracts because that's a future problem.

Definitely explain why, as a society, we have problems with consumerism and credit card debt, etc.

Nobody is saying that term on contract is not important.

But when you trade Nick Paul because you don't want to give him 4x$3M, and then turnaround and sign Mathieu Joseph to a 4x$2.95M deal, you're not adding flexibility for future years. You're simply choosing Joseph over Paul.

And I'll bet you that Paul will be a more effective, valuable player between 2022-2026 than Mathieu Joseph.

If what you care about is future flexibility, don't trade Paul for another salary obligation. Trade him for picks or someone on an ELC.

 

[Xspyrit]

Considering his game revolves around his speed and strength, probably quite a bit. Might need to get bought out.

This is Kyle Turris all over again. If there's one thing Dorion has been consistently good at it's selling high before a player hits a steep decline.

Like Zibanejad and Gustavsson? Or Karlsson and Stone? What about Duchene? Hoffman?

He knocked it out of the park with Dzingel but do you want to be reminded how he managed the return? let Duclair walk for nothing + Stepan + Murray.

My turn to quote you. Oh and Paul doesn't play a cerebral game? He's very "industrious" I find

I like Paul but if he's your 2C you're in trouble, Pinto makes a better 2C then Paul

Yeah Tampa has been in big trouble when Paul played with Stamkos and Killorn...

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Like Zibanejad and Gustavsson? Or Karlsson and Stone? What about Duchene? Hoffman?

He knocked it out of the park with Dzingel but do you want to be reminded how he managed the return? Duclair, Stepan, Murray.

My turn to quote you. Oh and Paul doesn't play a cerebral game? He's very "industrious" I find



Yeah Tampa has been in big trouble when Paul played with Stamkos and Killorn...

Nice list. Two #1 Centers, a Norris candidate, Hoffman had two career seasons immediately following, Stone a ppg granted injured a lot, and a young goalie putting up an almost .930 save %.

 

[Bileur]

You know it’s bad when TSN 1200 starts taking shots at the GM

 

[PlayOn]

I'm incredibly amused with how people are hyper focused on a players' performance right now, while simultaneously hand waving away term on contracts because that's a future problem.

Definitely explain why, as a society, we have problems with consumerism and credit card debt, etc.

Well, Joseph is a right now and future problem if he doesn’t get it together. This hypothetical decline Paul is going to embark on is a bit of a weak argument considering a) we don’t know this will be the case and b) even if it is, we moved him for a guy who isn’t playing well even now.

Maybe Joseph will be fantastic in the next three years, and maybe Paul will suck soon and we’ll be thankful for the move. As it stands today, we are not benefiting from the trade. And to be honest I am still okay with the trade itself, what I cannot wrap my mind around is why we gave Joseph 4 years after acquiring two expensive wingers and clearly about to enter a cap crunch.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Like Zibanejad and Gustavsson? Or Karlsson and Stone? What about Duchene? Hoffman?

He knocked it out of the park with Dzingel but do you want to be reminded how he managed the return? let Duclair walk for nothing + Stepan + Murray.

Yeah not sure what he means.

Not re-signing Turris was smart but Dorion tried to keep Karlsson, Stone, Duchene and Dzingel, but none of them wanted to stay once Karlsson was gone and the team was in the basement.

We're actually really fortunate that Dzingel didn't want to stay in Canada and chose to gamble on himself. Rumour was our offer to him was a lot higher than what he ended up getting in Carolina.

 

[bicboi64]

It is relevant because it proves that Paul's value increased tremendously with that playoff run.

We said no to 4 years in 2021, when he was on our 2nd line and looked dreadful.

Paul did his role on the 2nd line by being defensively responsible and creating space for his linemates. Not every forward in your to 6 needs to be a 30g threat

 

[Norris4Norris]

"While the Ottawa Senators remain outside the playoff picture, general manager Pierre Dorion may still be buyer at the trade deadline.

TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger reports that the Senators are looking to add a defenceman ahead of the deadline and, while acquiring a player with term would be ideal, Dorion is also open to taking on a potential rental."

Ottawa Senators looking for defencemen ahead of NHL trade deadline | TSN

While the Ottawa Senators remain outside the playoff picture, general manager Pierre Dorion may still be a buyer at the trade deadline.

www.tsn.ca

Ok, to me if we are not in the playoffs and not playing well against good teams why in the world are we looking to add at the deadline? And a potential rental? Josh Norris is done for the season, our depth we thought we would have back is gone again.

We could gain valuable assets by selling at the deadline and then move up in the draft and develop a long-term defenceman. IMO

 

[bert]

You know it’s bad when TSN 1200 starts taking shots at the GM

Took way too long considering. If this is any other Canadian market he would have been roasted way harder. I actually cant believe how easy they are taking it on him right now.

 

[Mingus Dew]

"While the Ottawa Senators remain outside the playoff picture, general manager Pierre Dorion may still be buyer at the trade deadline.

TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger reports that the Senators are looking to add a defenceman ahead of the deadline and, while acquiring a player with term would be ideal, Dorion is also open to taking on a potential rental."

Ottawa Senators looking for defencemen ahead of NHL trade deadline | TSN

While the Ottawa Senators remain outside the playoff picture, general manager Pierre Dorion may still be a buyer at the trade deadline.

www.tsn.ca

Ok, to me if we are not in the playoffs and not playing well against good teams why in the world are we looking to add at the deadline? And a potential rental? Josh Norris is done for the season, our depth we thought we would have back is gone again.

We could gain valuable assets by selling at the deadline and then move up in the draft and develop a long-term defenceman. IMO

He is GM'ing for his life and DJ is coaching for his life. The long term success of this franchise is not important to them right now.

I wish the board or whatever would realize this and shit can them both.

 

[Hale The Villain]

"While the Ottawa Senators remain outside the playoff picture, general manager Pierre Dorion may still be buyer at the trade deadline.

TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger reports that the Senators are looking to add a defenceman ahead of the deadline and, while acquiring a player with term would be ideal, Dorion is also open to taking on a potential rental."

Ottawa Senators looking for defencemen ahead of NHL trade deadline | TSN

While the Ottawa Senators remain outside the playoff picture, general manager Pierre Dorion may still be a buyer at the trade deadline.

www.tsn.ca

Ok, to me if we are not in the playoffs and not playing well against good teams why in the world are we looking to add at the deadline? And a potential rental? Josh Norris is done for the season, our depth we thought we would have back is gone again.

We could gain valuable assets by selling at the deadline and then move up in the draft and develop a long-term defenceman. IMO

Pure selfishness on the part of a GM and coach trying to save their own skin.

Dorion should be fired immediately for even suggesting this.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Although maybe I'm attributing malice to Dorion when the more likely alternative is just incompetence.

Worth noting that he learned all he knows from Bryan Murray - the absolute king of making additions once the season was already lost.

2009
Sens are 4th last in the league - Murray trades 1st for Campoli and Comrie
Sens finish 9th last in the league - miss out on OEL/Kadri (who they really liked) and end up with Cowen

2011
Sens are 2nd last in the league - Murray trades tank commander Elliott for Anderson
Sens end up 5th last and drop in the lottery - end up with Zibanejad instead of Landeskog/Huberdeau (the two guys we really wanted)

2014
Sens are 8th last - Murray trades a 3rd for Hemsky
Sens finish 10th last - pick was traded away already but it may have cost the Ducks Ehlers/Nylander

2016
Sens are 9th last - Murray trades for Phaneuf
Sens finish 12th worst - Sens end up trading a pick to move up one spot to draft Brown (rumoured to have really liked Sergachev who went 9th)

2022
Sens are 4th last - Dorion trades for Hamonic
Sens finish 7th last - end up trading the pick for DeBrincat

Whether you think making these acquisitions helped the team go on late runs or not, for whatever reason Sens management has historically been perfectly comfortable making additions to the team too late in the season to make the playoffs, even though anyone with a fully functioning pre-frontal cortex is aware it would be in the best interest of the long-term success of the organization for the team to bottom-out and finish with a high draft pick in a lost year.

Dorion trying to fix the team's issues too late in the season to make the playoffs is a continuation of this trend, not the exception.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Although maybe I'm attributing malice to Dorion when the more likely alternative is just incompetence.

Worth noting that he learned all he knows from Bryan Murray - the absolute king of making additions once the season was already lost.

2009
Sens are 4th last in the league - Murray trades 1st for Campoli and Comrie
Sens finish 9th last in the league - miss out on OEL/Kadri (who they really liked) and end up with Cowen

2011
Sens are 2nd last in the league - Murray trades tank commander Elliott for Anderson
Sens end up 5th last and drop in the lottery - end up with Zibanejad instead of Landeskog/Huberdeau (the two guys we really wanted)

2014
Sens are 8th last - Murray trades a 3rd for Hemsky
Sens finish 10th last - pick was traded away already but it may have cost the Ducks Ehlers/Nylander

2016
Sens are 9th last - Murray trades for Phaneuf
Sens finish 12th worst - Sens end up trading a pick to move up one spot to draft Brown

2022
Sens are 4th last - Dorion trades for Hamonic
Sens finish 7th last - end up trading the pick for DeBrincat

Whether you think making these acquisitions helped the team go on late runs or not, for whatever reason Sens management has historically been perfectly comfortable making additions to the team too late in the season to make the playoffs, even though anyone with a fully functioning pre-frontal cortex is aware it would be in the best interest of the long-term success of the organization for the team to bottom-out and finish with a high draft pick in a lost year.

Dorion trying to fix the team's issues too late in the season to make the playoffs is a continuation of this trend, not the exception.

Now that is one very confusing series of events right there. WTF.

 

[bert]

Now that is one very confusing series of events right there. WTF.

The confusing thing is that said poster tried to suggest those deals were all bad. None of those trades were bad except the deal in 2009. Weird choices by said poster. Leaving all context out of each trade too.

Complaining about getting Zibanejad instead of Landeskog and Huberdeau while securing the best goalie in franchise history.... Insanely stupid to think this is a bad deal. Its probably one of the best deals in franchise history.

Roasting the GM wen the team is 9th last and close to a playoff spot when they dont have their first for trading a 3rd round pick. Whats wrong with that?.... Lol THEY DIDNT HAVE THEIR FIRST.

Phaneuf deal wasnt a rental either and they barely missed the playoffs, thats what you are supposed to do. Then they make a run the following year with Phaneuf who carried the 2nd pair. They also dumped a bunch of bad contracts.

Sens are going to retain a 3rd back for Hamonic at the deadline.

Poster just hates Murray who did a great job with no prospects in the cupboard and was set up for failure by that idiot muckler.

 

[ksens]

Poster just hates Murray who did a great job with no prospects in the cupboard and was set up for failure by that idiot muckler.

You can also nitpick any GMs trades.

The only important thing is outcomes. Right now I'd take the outcomes under Murray over the Dorion shitshow any day of the week.

 

[Hale The Villain]

The confusing thing is that said poster tried to suggest those deals were all bad. None of those trades were bad except the deal in 2009. Weird choices by said poster. Leaving all context out of each trade too.

Complaining about getting Zibanejad instead of Landeskog and Huberdeau while securing the best goalie in franchise history.... Insanely stupid to think this is a bad deal. Its probably one of the best deals in franchise history.

Roasting the GM wen the team is 9th last and close to a playoff spot when they dont have their first for trading a 3rd round pick. Whats wrong with that?.... Lol THEY DIDNT HAVE THEIR FIRST.

Phaneuf deal wasnt a rental either and they barely missed the playoffs, thats what you are supposed to do. Then they make a run the following year with Phaneuf who carried the 2nd pair. They also dumped a bunch of bad contracts.

Sens are going to retain a 3rd back for Hamonic at the deadline.

Poster just hates Murray who did a great job with no prospects in the cupboard and was set up for failure by that idiot muckler.

I said nothing about the deals being bad. The entire point of the post was focusing on the timing of when the deals were made.

It's incredibly rare for the GMs of teams far out of the playoffs to add to their roster and try to improve their team. Basically no other GMs do it because they are smart enough to realize that it's not the time to improve the team, as adding a player that can help you win can make a big difference in draft position.

Murray was one of the few who did it, and whether or not you liked the trades, the timing almost certainly hurt our draft pick and may have cost us dearly in getting a worse prospects over the years.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The confusing thing is that said poster tried to suggest those deals were all bad. None of those trades were bad except the deal in 2009. Weird choices by said poster. Leaving all context out of each trade too.

Complaining about getting Zibanejad instead of Landeskog and Huberdeau while securing the best goalie in franchise history.... Insanely stupid to think this is a bad deal. Its probably one of the best deals in franchise history.

Roasting the GM wen the team is 9th last and close to a playoff spot when they dont have their first for trading a 3rd round pick. Whats wrong with that?.... Lol THEY DIDNT HAVE THEIR FIRST.

Phaneuf deal wasnt a rental either and they barely missed the playoffs, thats what you are supposed to do. Then they make a run the following year with Phaneuf who carried the 2nd pair. They also dumped a bunch of bad contracts.

Sens are going to retain a 3rd back for Hamonic at the deadline.

Poster just hates Murray who did a great job with no prospects in the cupboard and was set up for failure by that idiot muckler.

I thought they were pretty fair in their assessment for the actual point they were making about Murray/Dorion not being afraid to add to the team after they're out of it and it potentially affecting picks. I didn't take it as "roasting" Murray, but admittedly didn't read much of the last part until now.

I don't think they have to be bad trades or labelled as bad to point out that some of the circumstances led to them being unfortunate in hindsight. GM's are paid to make predictions after all and obviously hindsight is required to asses their body of work. 2009 was just a lame move in general. 2011 was obviously good long term and Zbad fell in our laps, but we were all pissed at the time as we watched the teams pick drop solely due to Anderson who we didn't know we'd keep, so worth pointing out for the original point. 2014 was fine but should have happened sooner, too little too late by then. 2016 I hated and trace a big reason for the need rebuild back to that deal even though it had some short term gains that are undeniable. 2022 is a whatever move to me and Dorion seemed pretty open about it being more for the following season, nor do I think Hamonic is good enough to prop the team up to any tangible improvement in the standings anyways.

I liked Murray too, but he was a mixed bag as GM imo and don't solely attribute his up and down tenure to Muckler or Melnyk.

 

[DrEasy]

One reason I might entertain making trades for a rental at the deadline even if we're out of it is to bring in a player that we'd want to sign in the off-season but we don't feel confident the player would sign unless they're already here and don't feel like moving again.

Maybe Craig Anderson wouldn't have signed here without that TDL trade. Worth trading Brian Elliott for that opportunity? Maybe, as long as the gamble works, and it did in that case. But teams that are natural free agent destinations would never need to resort to that option.