The Fall of Pierre

[StoicSensFan]

Pre- and post-Melnyk Dorion should be evaluated as two separate GMs.

 

[Ice-Tray]

hiring Alfie is a lot less crazy than wanting to retain Dorion. Not sure how any Senators fan could stomach that honestly.

you must be a masochist.

Me a masochist? Dude, you’re still spinning on the spit of your Brady bashing, and double stuck with your ‘mentally weakest Sens team of all time’ thread. I can’t wait to see your next spit that gets rammed through you…

Naw, I’m just not bitter and jaded and don’t want to replace our current GM, when it happens, with someone with Zero (virtually) pro management or coaching experience just because he was a legendary player.

To me that’s putting him in a position to fail, while not actually making the management side of the team any better. It also doesn’t display solid decision making from a new group, it shows shallow decision making looking to cash in on short term fan loyalties.

Hiring Alfie is a no brainer, but he has to learn the ropes. The good thing about Alfie is that he’s a smart guy and will join the team in a manner that is best for him long term.

Bitch forever about signing rookie GMs and coaches, and then when the opportunity arises demand we hire a rookie GM…. Classic

 

[swiftwin]

This past summer, Dorion had the best free agent signing in franchise history, the 2nd best trade in franchise history, and locked up what could very well be a top 5 player in the league for 8 years at a reasonable price (who's pick was also acquired via trade).

And y'all want him fired?!?!?

 

[HSF]

This past summer, Dorion had the best free agent signing in franchise history, the 2nd best trade in franchise history, and locked up what could very well be a top 5 player in the league for 8 years at a reasonable price (who's pick was also acquired via trade).

And y'all want him fired?!?!?

no one said those are poor moves

The team needs fresh eyes to take the next step and actually come close to the playoffs

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

This past summer, Dorion had the best free agent signing in franchise history, the 2nd best trade in franchise history, and locked up what could very well be a top 5 player in the league for 8 years at a reasonable price (who's pick was also acquired via trade).

And y'all want him fired?!?!?

Yes. The sooner the better.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Me a masochist? Dude, you’re still spinning on the spit of your Brady bashing, and double stuck with your ‘mentally weakest Sens team of all time’ thread. I can’t wait to see your next spit that gets rammed through you…

Naw, I’m just not bitter and jaded and don’t want to replace our current GM, when it happens, with someone with Zero (virtually) pro management or coaching experience just because he was a legendary player.

To me that’s putting him in a position to fail, while not actually making the management side of the team any better. It also doesn’t display solid decision making from a new group, it shows shallow decision making looking to cash in on short term fan loyalties.

Hiring Alfie is a no brainer, but he has to learn the ropes. The good thing about Alfie is that he’s a smart guy and will join the team in a manner that is best for him long term.

Bitch forever about signing rookie GMs and coaches, and then when the opportunity arises demand we hire a rookie GM…. Classic

dear lord, how was I bashing Brady? I was saying last year that he needs to stop with his bad no look passes to the other team and his bad shot taking and he would be a better player. And guess what? he improves on that shit and he's a better player this year and I'm not harping on him for it! So how is that bashing? He is still trash defensively though, garbage effort and poise for a captain so hopefully he improves on that too, and when he does I won't criticize him for it, magic!

But I get it we aren't allowed to talk hockey here unless its profuse praise for Brady, Dorion, and the team. No room for rationality if it borders on being critical in your world.

Alfie is highly intelligent, disciplined and has been around the business for 25 years, deeply involved in NHLPA, was captain and ambassador and even had a stint in upper management. He would not be as clueless as you're making him out to be. Not to mention he will have assistants.

And honestly it has less to do with Alfie and more to do with how bad Dorion is. Dorion is really bad, and if you can't see it by now I don't know what to say. I don't even really want Alfie in the GM role tbh, I think POHO would be better or a fluid management/coaching role where he is heavily involved with the players.

 

[Ice-Tray]

dear lord, how was I bashing Brady? I was saying last year that he needs to stop with his bad no look passes to the other team and his bad shot taking and he would be a better player. And guess what? he improves on that shit and he's a better player this year and I'm not harping on him for it! So how is that bashing? He is still trash defensively though, garbage effort and poise for a captain so hopefully he improves on that too, and when he does I won't criticize him for it, magic!

But I get it we aren't allowed to talk hockey here unless its profuse praise for Brady, Dorion, and the team. No room for rationality if it borders on being critical in your world.

Alfie is highly intelligent, disciplined and has been around the business for 25 years, deeply involved in NHLPA, was captain and ambassador and even had a stint in upper management. He would not be as classless as you're making him out to be. Not to mention he will have assistants.

And honestly it has less to do with Alfie and more to do with how bad Dorion is. Dorion is really bad, and if you can't see it by now I don't know what to say. I don't even really want Alfie in the GM role tbh, I think POHO would be better or a fluid management/coaching role where he is heavily involved with the players.

Didn’t take much to get you going on Brady again did it…

Lol, it’s not about what I think of Dorion, I understand that big changes are likely coming.

Personally I would like to see a measured approach that exudes intelligence and long term planning from the yet to be determined ownership group. They won’t even be able to seriously talk hiring until one of the groups actually buys the team.

To me it’s the crazy thinking that we should replace PD with someone that has zero experience in the job, or in management at all. I would prefer to see him take the grooming path that other great players have taken, like Yzerman.

I don’t look at our team and see the makings of a ‘really bad GM’ but in the end it really doesn’t matter, I just want to see progress in decision making, a hiring of professionals in their positions.

It’s not that I don’t understand your desire to bring EK and Alfie back and give them the keys. I just think it’s a poor plan.

By the way, I don’t know if this is part of your ‘rationality’ schtick but I have never called Alfie ‘classless’. Nor have I criticized him.

 

[JD1]

dear lord, how was I bashing Brady? I was saying last year that he needs to stop with his bad no look passes to the other team and his bad shot taking and he would be a better player. And guess what? he improves on that shit and he's a better player this year and I'm not harping on him for it! So how is that bashing? He is still trash defensively though, garbage effort and poise for a captain so hopefully he improves on that too, and when he does I won't criticize him for it, magic!

But I get it we aren't allowed to talk hockey here unless its profuse praise for Brady, Dorion, and the team. No room for rationality if it borders on being critical in your world.

Alfie is highly intelligent, disciplined and has been around the business for 25 years, deeply involved in NHLPA, was captain and ambassador and even had a stint in upper management. He would not be as clueless as you're making him out to be. Not to mention he will have assistants.

And honestly it has less to do with Alfie and more to do with how bad Dorion is. Dorion is really bad, and if you can't see it by now I don't know what to say. I don't even really want Alfie in the GM role tbh, I think POHO would be better or a fluid management/coaching role where he is heavily involved with the players.

Well, to be fair, you've been quite critical of Tkachuk for a long time, a fact that's been pointed out to you many times by many people.

Alfie. Has he been around the business of hockey for 25 years? Really? In what capacity? Deeply involved in the NHLPA. Hmmm. Alfie was probably the biggest victim of the 24% rollback negotiated in 2004. Idk, maybe he should have paid more attention in the NHLPA meetings and not signed a long term deal that got rolled back for years. You figure he should have had more insight into what was coming.

I'd like to see Alfie involved in some capacity but I don't want him sitting in a GM chair until he's paid his dues, which he hasn't

 

[Golden_Jet]

dear lord, how was I bashing Brady? I was saying last year that he needs to stop with his bad no look passes to the other team and his bad shot taking and he would be a better player. And guess what? he improves on that shit and he's a better player this year and I'm not harping on him for it! So how is that bashing? He is still trash defensively though, garbage effort and poise for a captain so hopefully he improves on that too, and when he does I won't criticize him for it, magic!

But I get it we aren't allowed to talk hockey here unless its profuse praise for Brady, Dorion, and the team. No room for rationality if it borders on being critical in your world.

Alfie is highly intelligent, disciplined and has been around the business for 25 years, deeply involved in NHLPA, was captain and ambassador and even had a stint in upper management. He would not be as clueless as you're making him out to be. Not to mention he will have assistants.

And honestly it has less to do with Alfie and more to do with how bad Dorion is. Dorion is really bad, and if you can't see it by now I don't know what to say. I don't even really want Alfie in the GM role tbh, I think POHO would be better or a fluid management/coaching role where he is heavily involved with the players.

Alfie said not interested in GM role on Wally and Meth.
Sounded like coaching or development the way he spoke.

 

[jhutter]

We should be overflowing with young talent but Dorion didn't manage his assets correctly during the rebuild.

So many bad trades, wasted picks and missed opportunities to utilize our cap space to get picks via taking on bad contracts ala Arizona.

I was thinking that if we re-sign ADB we need to trade Joseph and replace him internally to save around 2M, but then who replaces him at RW?

I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep if we had to lose Joseph to sign DeBrincat, lol.

 

[Cosmix]

Alfie said not interested in GM role on Wally and Meth.
Sounded like coaching or development the way he spoke.

I suppose Alfie thinks he would enjoy coaching more because he would be in a competitive role as well as on the ice helping players to develop their skills. He might not like being in the office most of the time if he were GM. However, being a coach means over 41 games out of town during the season which would take him away from his family. A PR role might be less demanding on him and suit him at this time.

Well, to be fair, you've been quite critical of Tkachuk for a long time, a fact that's been pointed out to you many times by many people.

Alfie. Has he been around the business of hockey for 25 years? Really? In what capacity? Deeply involved in the NHLPA. Hmmm. Alfie was probably the biggest victim of the 24% rollback negotiated in 2004. Idk, maybe he should have paid more attention in the NHLPA meetings and not signed a long term deal that got rolled back for years. You figure he should have had more insight into what was coming.

I'd like to see Alfie involved in some capacity but I don't want him sitting in a GM chair until he's paid his dues, which he hasn't

I agree that Alfie must learn the skills of GM first as an assistant GM before becoming a GM.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep if we had to lose Joseph to sign DeBrincat, lol.

Nor would I, but I don't see any team taking on Joseph for free.

 

[Alex1234]

Edit

This past summer, Dorion had the best free agent signing in franchise history, the 2nd best trade in franchise history, and locked up what could very well be a top 5 player in the league for 8 years at a reasonable price (who's pick was also acquired via trade).

And y'all want him fired?!?!?

Giroux was coming home even if Sabourin was the GM and its a no brainer to sign a top 3 pick

 

[L'Aveuglette]

This past summer, Dorion had the best free agent signing in franchise history, the 2nd best trade in franchise history, and locked up what could very well be a top 5 player in the league for 8 years at a reasonable price (who's pick was also acquired via trade).

And y'all want him fired?!?!?

We rebuilt for 5 years, now on year 6 and supposedly meant to be a bubble team, but are sitting back 9 points from a WC spot.

Sure, PD had a great summer as far as signing forwards go, but we're still missing a top-4 D which he knew we needed years ago, have shallow depth in the bottom-6, and it doesn't look like we'll be playing meaningful games this spring unless the four teams in between us and a playoff spot all fall apart magically.

If we want to not only make the playoffs but contend for the cup before our window closes, you bet your ass we should replace Dorion with someone who knows what it takes to get to that next level.

 

[JD1]

We rebuilt for 5 years, now on year 6 and supposedly meant to be a bubble team, but are sitting back 9 points from a WC spot.

Sure, PD had a great summer as far as signing forwards go, but we're still missing a top-4 D which he knew we needed years ago, have shallow depth in the bottom-6, and it doesn't look like we'll be playing meaningful games this spring unless the four teams in between us and a playoff spot all fall apart magically.

If we want to not only make the playoffs but contend for the cup before our window closes, you bet your ass we should replace Dorion with someone who knows what it takes to get to that next level.

I think you've added a year on. We went to the ecf in 2017. We added in 2017, moving out Turris, acquiring Duchene. That flopped. Badly. The summer of 2018 was the start of the tear down. We moved Karlsson and then Stone and Duchene at the 2019 TDL.

We're on year 5 of the rebuild.

Imo we look pretty good. We've had a rough first half with injuries. We dominated from start to finish last night against one of the hottest teams in the league. Beat the best team two nights before that. I think we're pretty primed to post a 50+ point 2nd half. If healthy.

 

[UglyPuckling]

I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep if we had to lose Joseph to sign DeBrincat, lol.

Yes, I would doubt if anyone would mind that.

Think there will be other implications on the roster if Debrincat is signed though. There are posts with 2023-24 rosters and salaries floating around with that info. I'll assume that you're probably aware of that.

 

[UglyPuckling]

I think you've added a year on. We went to the ecf in 2017. We added in 2017, moving out Turris, acquiring Duchene. That flopped. Badly. The summer of 2018 was the start of the year down. We moved Karlsson and then Stone and Duchene at the 2019 TDL.

We're on year 5 of the rebuild.

Imo we look pretty good. We've had a rough first half with injuries. We dominated from start to finish last night against one of the hottest teams in the league. Beat the best team two nights before that. I think we're pretty primed to post a 50+ point 2nd half. If healthy.

Yes, I go with 5 years and Karlsson trade myself. Its so user definable, but if you just use the trade of the star player, its seems like its an objective standard.

It took us awhile to get our mojo going, but it seems like we have it now. I like how we are winning in different ways. Some games we come from behind. Other games we lock it down when we go into the 3rd period with a lead. That's an indication that the team has some confidence. And, we've had the next man up thing going as well & have had to plug hole (injuries) with call ups. Zub will be back soon I hope as well.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

We should be overflowing with young talent but Dorion didn't manage his assets correctly during the rebuild.

So many bad trades, wasted picks and missed opportunities to utilize our cap space to get picks via taking on bad contracts ala Arizona.

I was thinking that if we re-sign ADB we need to trade Joseph and replace him internally to save around 2M, but then who replaces him at RW?

Peterka and Sillinger on ELCs would look reeeeeeeeeal nice right about now.

 

[swiftwin]

We rebuilt for 5 years, now on year 6 and supposedly meant to be a bubble team, but are sitting back 9 points from a WC spot.

Sure, PD had a great summer as far as signing forwards go, but we're still missing a top-4 D which he knew we needed years ago, have shallow depth in the bottom-6, and it doesn't look like we'll be playing meaningful games this spring unless the four teams in between us and a playoff spot all fall apart magically.

If we want to not only make the playoffs but contend for the cup before our window closes, you bet your ass we should replace Dorion with someone who knows what it takes to get to that next level.

Sitting 9 points from a WC spot is not relevant right now (especially considering we have 2 games in hand). If we're 9 points from a WC spot at the end of the season, then yeah, sure, maybe you have a point.

It's also hard to criticize him on depth, considering we lost Norris and Formenton right off the bat. Plus Joseph and Motte are now out. Losing four top 9 players to long term injuries/legal issues is going to make any team look thin.

Besides, Dorion was universally lauded for his recent off-season and drafting of the current core. GMs are judged on longer timelines than just one poor month in one season. The team is clearly better than their current standings. I know you know this.

I also find it completely insane that you're talking about our window closing when our three biggest players with the most upside are all 23 and younger (Stutzle, Sanderson and Tkachuk). We have a decade+ to go with this core of players. Just look at how 12 years later, Boston is still going strong with the same core that won them the cup 2011.

 

[Micklebot]

I think you've added a year on. We went to the ecf in 2017. We added in 2017, moving out Turris, acquiring Duchene. That flopped. Badly. The summer of 2018 was the start of the year down. We moved Karlsson and then Stone and Duchene at the 2019 TDL.

We're on year 5 of the rebuild.

Imo we look pretty good. We've had a rough first half with injuries. We dominated from start to finish last night against one of the hottest teams in the league. Beat the best team two nights before that. I think we're pretty primed to post a 50+ point 2nd half. If healthy.

We started the rebuild 3 months after acquiring Duchene, trading off Phaneuf and Brassard at the deadline, so split the difference I guess, year 5.5?

Injuries hurt us this year for sure, it's frustrating given that we're managing the injuries far better now than in Nov, this season would look a lot better had we gotten a few more loser pts or god forbid a win to break up that 7 game losing streak.

 

[JD1]

We started the rebuild 3 months after acquiring Duchene, trading off Phaneuf and Brassard at the deadline, so split the difference I guess, year 5.5?

Injuries hurt us this year for sure, it's frustrating given that we're managing the injuries far better now than in Nov, this season would look a lot better had we gotten a few more loser pts or god forbid a win to break up that 7 game losing streak.

Technically you're right because we sold off at that TDL but the summer decision and fall decision was to add. Splitting hairs. I've just always viewed the rebuild as a decision made in January that was actioned in the summer of 18.

I think it took time with a younger team to manage the injuries. But I like the PP at this point.

 

[Micklebot]

Technically you're right because we sold off at that TDL but the summer decision and fall decision was to add. Splitting hairs. I've just always viewed the rebuild as a decision made in January that was actioned in the summer of 18.

I think it took time with a younger team to manage the injuries. But I like the PP at this point.

I guess, they tried to move Karlsson that deadline from the sound of it, to the point that Ryan legit thought he'd been traded with him, but it took them till the offseason to get it done. Not really important either way, though.

PP is on fire, no doubt there. Best I've seen since the pizza line days I think.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Edit


Giroux was coming home even if Sabourin was the GM and its a no brainer to sign a top 3 pick

That’s not what he said in his various interviews.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Alfie said not interested in GM role on Wally and Meth.
Sounded like coaching or development the way he spoke.

If and when new management decides to hire, to improve the Senators coaching and development ….. they should hire the best available person/people for those positions… if it’s Alfredsson, that’s okay… but to hire someone mainly to curry favour with the fan base is not in the franchises long term interest…. There are positions much less impactful if they want to bring Alfredsson into the organization if he’s interested

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Sitting 9 points from a WC spot is not relevant right now (especially considering we have 2 games in hand). If we're 9 points from a WC spot at the end of the season, then yeah, sure, maybe you have a point.

of course it’s relevant. It shows just how much better the Sens have to play, beginning today, and for the rest of the season to make up the necessary points, to catch and grab a WC spot.

also, just looking at the “games in hand” Ottawa has on just the (Islanders) the current holder of the final WC spot is short sighted, as there are teams (Sabres & Wings) that have games in hand on Ottawa, who also are chasing the Islanders for the exact same WC spot.

the simple way to look at the pursuit of the final WC spot, is to look past the points and games in hand, and just focus on the Points Percentage, which basically combines the games in hand and the accumulated points of each team…. Islanders @ .595, Senators @ .500….. the Senators need to play up to, and surpass the .595 Pts% just to gain ground on the final WC spot…. And meanwhile, the Panthers, Sabres, Wings and Rangers are going to be doing the exact same thing…… it’s kinda like a NASCAR race, and Ottawa is 5 cars back of the Islanders, and all those other teams are not going to allow Ottawa to simply pass them by…. So yes, the 9 points are relevant today, but to be more precise the difference in Points Percentage is what you need to look at, and the other teams in the Conference too.

currently the Probability the Senators make the playoffs (WC spot) sits at 13.3%…. That shows just how relevant those 9 points you casually dismiss are.

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