The Fall of Pierre

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

After Murray gutted the amazing depth this team had (Vermette, Kelly, Fisher, Meszaros, Bishop) etc the depth on this team has been its major wekesness. For every Stone and EL we had we didn’t even have legit players for them to play with

For EK's entire tenure pretty much, the team could be described as always having 1 or 2 crippling holes in the lineup.

 

[Tuna99]

For EK's entire tenure pretty much, the team could be described as always having 1 or 2 crippling holes in the lineup.

Crazy to think EK almost carried this team to the finals with Turris and Brassard as the top 2 centers

 

[bert]

If the choice you're making is between Debrincat and Chabot you keep Chabot it's a very easy decision.

But you dont have to make that decision. Its not one or the other.

 

[Micklebot]

So because he did his job, he’ll be unemployed?

He'll be unemployed because we're likely going to miss the playoffs for the 6th consecutive year. That's the longest stretch in franchise history,

New ownership will want to bring in their own guys, I doubt he's on their shortlist.

 

[Golden_Jet]

He'll be unemployed because we're likely going to miss the playoffs for the 6th consecutive year. That's the longest stretch in franchise history,

New ownership will want to bring in their own guys, I doubt he's on their shortlist.

Ok, that’s a totally different reason, and a better reason.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yes he should also be unemployed because a divisional rival that started their rebuild just last season is still ahead of us in the standings

He was given one of the most ideal situations in NHL history to start a rebuild and we still can’t get out of it

(EDIT) 6-7 years ago we had Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Zibanejad, Chabot, Pageau, Hoffman, etc

 

[Micklebot]

Ok, that’s a totally different reason, and a better reason.

Not really, you responded to someone saying that's why he'll be unemployed, referring to a another post about how the team that was 5 years into a rebuild still trying to fill out depth positions and toiling at the bottom of the standings. The mention of people fawning over re-signing Zub wasn't at all the rationale the OP used to explain why Dorion will be fired.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Not really, you responded to someone saying that's why he'll be unemployed, referring to a another post about how the team that was 5 years into a rebuild still trying to fill out depth positions and toiling at the bottom of the standings. The mention of people fawning over re-signing Zub wasn't at all the rationale the OP used to explain why Dorion will be fired.

No that wasn’t the reason at all,
I responded to a post about signing Zub

And despite people fellating Pierre for signing Zub (isn't it a basic part of your job to sign players before they hit free agency?) it is why he'll be unemployed pretty soon.

Not sure why you’re hung up on this post, so I’m out.

 

[Tuna99]

Yes he should also be unemployed because a divisional rival that started their rebuild just last season is still ahead of us in the standings

He was given one of the most ideal situations in NHL history to start a rebuild and we still can’t get out of it

6 years ago we had Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Zibanejad, Chabot, Pageau, Hoffman, etc

Dorion is also caught by his own rules of engagement which are stupid.

1. Loyalty . his loyalty to DJ Smith is an obvious flaw but Dorion wants loyalty and not winning to be what he is remembered for.

2. Expectations . His other flaw is he is afraid of expectations and so he has non for this team. He just wants to kinda be hanging around - for teams to meet their goals they have to state their goals but Dorion never achieves his goals and objectives so he’s afraid to set any and so when they lose and are at the bottom of the standings, he says he’s below expectations but he also doesn’t expect to be a playoff team so there is no accountability.

3. Fear of unholy players. Dorion has PTSD from Alfie and EK so he’s let the lockeroom and the players play lazy loose hockey and he can’t demand standards for fear the players will tune him out. He’d rather have a happy losing team then an unhappy winning team. Brady and Batherson don’t play defence and no one in the organization demand it from them, because they know they have no leverage with the players, so our top players float and get away with it

 

[JD1]

Yes he should also be unemployed because a divisional rival that started their rebuild just last season is still ahead of us in the standings

He was given one of the most ideal situations in NHL history to start a rebuild and we still can’t get out of it

6 years ago we had Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Zibanejad, Chabot, Pageau, Hoffman, etc

Duchene and Zibanejad were never part of the same team. They were 1+ years apart

Karlsson was coming off a major injury and had posted a less than stellar year. At this point the return on Karlsson is decidedly in Ottawa's favour

The Hoffman situation was a mess. He was totally tainted.

Pageau was glorified by two games. Remove them from his resume and his name isn't likely in your post. He's a one time 20 goal scorer and the return on him was solid.

It would have been helpful had we been able to take on bad contracts but cash flow wise Melnyk wasn't in that game. Not taking on bad contracts is referenced here from time to time, but only by posters with an anti mgmt view or by those that can't see the forest thru the trees.

This is really the first year we should have been competing and before we got started we were derailed by the Norris injury. Citing a lack of depth is nonsense. Rebuilding teams don't have depth.

And yes, you can compare to Buffalo. Does Ottawa have two 1OAs as part of the rebuild? Did Ottawa have an Eichel that was moved out? At this stage the only real criticism of Dorion is the Stone situation. We needed more out of that.

 

[Micklebot]

No that wasn’t the reason at all,
I responded to a post about signing Zub

And despite people fellating Pierre for signing Zub (isn't it a basic part of your job to sign players before they hit free agency?) it is why he'll be unemployed pretty soon.

Not sure why you’re hung up on this post, so I’m out.

Read the post he was responding to and you'll get the context of his post, particularly one part you omitted here for some reason.

"That's where we are at," refered to exactly what I said, and why to the post you replied to suggested Dorion would be fired.

You've misinterpreted the post you responded to and as a result are arguing about something nobody suggested.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Duchene and Zibanejad were never part of the same team. They were 1+ years apart

Karlsson was coming off a major injury and had posted a less than stellar year. At this point the return on Karlsson is decidedly in Ottawa's favour

The Hoffman situation was a mess. He was totally tainted.

Pageau was glorified by two games. Remove them from his resume and his name isn't likely in your post. He's a one time 20 goal scorer and the return on him was solid.

It would have been helpful had we been able to take on bad contracts but cash flow wise Melnyk wasn't in that game. Not taking on bad contracts is referenced here from time to time, but only by posters with an anti mgmt view or by those that can't see the forest thru the trees.

This is really the first year we should have been competing and before we got started we were derailed by the Norris injury. Citing a lack of depth is nonsense. Rebuilding teams don't have depth.

And yes, you can compare to Buffalo. Does Ottawa have two 1OAs as part of the rebuild? Did Ottawa have an Eichel that was moved out? At this stage the only real criticism of Dorion is the Stone situation. We needed more out of that.

Agreed, and with Stone it was a rookie GM mistake not to have a hard deadline to extend well before the TDL.

Live and learn there, as we have seen a different strategy employed in terms of signing players.

Good post, I think it adequately frames the period.

 

[Loach]

Duchene and Zibanejad were never part of the same team. They were 1+ years apart

Karlsson was coming off a major injury and had posted a less than stellar year. At this point the return on Karlsson is decidedly in Ottawa's favour

The Hoffman situation was a mess. He was totally tainted.

Pageau was glorified by two games. Remove them from his resume and his name isn't likely in your post. He's a one time 20 goal scorer and the return on him was solid.

It would have been helpful had we been able to take on bad contracts but cash flow wise Melnyk wasn't in that game. Not taking on bad contracts is referenced here from time to time, but only by posters with an anti mgmt view or by those that can't see the forest thru the trees.

This is really the first year we should have been competing and before we got started we were derailed by the Norris injury. Citing a lack of depth is nonsense. Rebuilding teams don't have depth.

And yes, you can compare to Buffalo. Does Ottawa have two 1OAs as part of the rebuild? Did Ottawa have an Eichel that was moved out? At this stage the only real criticism of Dorion is the Stone situation. We needed more out of that.

After 5 years of rebuilding we should have some depth. A little bit. Not all the depth, but some.

 

[Micklebot]

After 5 years of rebuilding we should have some depth. A little bit. Not all the depth, but some.

To be fair, we would have some depth if not for

Formenton situation,
Norris injury
Stutzle injury
Joseph injury
Motte injury
JBD injury
Zub injury ect.

 

[JD1]

After 5 years of rebuilding we should have some depth. A little bit. Not all the depth, but some.

In theory you're right. But this is Ottawa. Would Norris's injury had less of an impact if Pinto hadn't missed pretty much all of last season? Absolutely. It's literally like we can't get out of the starting blocks because we're constantly derailed. Last year it's White and Pinto. Pooched before you start. This year things look good. Norris has established himself as a 1C and Stu had a successful trial at C. Pinto while inexperienced slots in as a 3C. Boom. Norris goes down, it's totally different. You literally can't make this shit up.

 

[JD1]

To be fair, we would have some depth if not for

Formenton situation,
Norris injury
Stutzle injury
Joseph injury
Motte injury
JBD injury
Zub injury ect.

Formenton's loss is significant. We got nothing in return and likely won't get a return.

Formenton Pinto Joseph is a pretty solid 3rd line on paper. And we never got to see it.

We needed a healthy season and we haven't got it

 

[Loach]

To be fair, we would have some depth if not for

Formenton situation,
Norris injury
Stutzle injury
Joseph injury
Motte injury
JBD injury
Zub injury ect.

Stu hasn't been hurt long. Motte and Joseph....there should be guys in Belleville to gain nhl experience for a few games, not being chatier and luchini. JBD should be ready by now, he's only like 6 months younger than Branny. I get Zub and Norris. Formenton..well..wth to do with that?. Peterka would be nice right now, no? How about we play Jarventie instead of Luchini? 5 years. Kastelic and Kelly is what we have for depth? Looking back it's starting to look like Edmonton...we can't draft if it's not top 5. Need to get some depth out of the late rounds...not at 10. Just annoyed, sorry folks. The longer it goes on, the more Dorion looks like he dropped the ball so many time he's dribbling.

 

[JD1]

Stu hasn't been hurt long. Motte and Joseph....there should be guys in Belleville to gain nhl experience for a few games, not being chatier and luchini. JBD should be ready by now, he's only like 6 months younger than Branny. I get Zub and Norris. Formenton..well..wth to do with that?. Peterka would be nice right now, no? How about we play Jarventie instead of Luchini? 5 years. Kastelic and Kelly is what we have for depth? Looking back it's starting to look like Edmonton...we can't draft if it's not top 5. Need to get some depth out of the late rounds...not at 10. Just annoyed, sorry folks. The longer it goes on, the more Dorion looks like he dropped the ball so many time he's dribbling.

Well, JBD is most likely in the lineup every game since his call up....but he's injured too. So is Jarventie.

 

[NewEraGM]

Can you guys pass the habs pls!!!

 

[Bileur]

Saying the Sens don’t have depth because of injury is looking at the problem backwards. The reason you need depth is in case of injury.

A few injuries completely depleting your team and making it impossible to compete is the best evidence of lack of depth.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Stu hasn't been hurt long. Motte and Joseph....there should be guys in Belleville to gain nhl experience for a few games, not being chatier and luchini. JBD should be ready by now, he's only like 6 months younger than Branny. I get Zub and Norris. Formenton..well..wth to do with that?. Peterka would be nice right now, no? How about we play Jarventie instead of Luchini? 5 years. Kastelic and Kelly is what we have for depth? Looking back it's starting to look like Edmonton...we can't draft if it's not top 5. Need to get some depth out of the late rounds...not at 10. Just annoyed, sorry folks. The longer it goes on, the more Dorion looks like he dropped the ball so many time he's dribbling.

Looks like you don’t follow Belleville,, they called up the most qualified, and Jarventie has only played 8 games as he’s been injured, but I know doesn’t fit your narrative.

Saying the Sens don’t have depth because of injury is looking at the problem backwards. The reason you need depth is in case of injury.

A few injuries completely depleting your team and making it impossible to compete is the best evidence of lack of depth.

No team has depth for 6 injuries, the cap doesn’t allow for extra depth, other than minimum wagers.

 

[Bileur]

Duchene and Zibanejad were never part of the same team. They were 1+ years apart

Karlsson was coming off a major injury and had posted a less than stellar year. At this point the return on Karlsson is decidedly in Ottawa's favour

The Hoffman situation was a mess. He was totally tainted.

Pageau was glorified by two games. Remove them from his resume and his name isn't likely in your post. He's a one time 20 goal scorer and the return on him was solid.

It would have been helpful had we been able to take on bad contracts but cash flow wise Melnyk wasn't in that game. Not taking on bad contracts is referenced here from time to time, but only by posters with an anti mgmt view or by those that can't see the forest thru the trees.

This is really the first year we should have been competing and before we got started we were derailed by the Norris injury. Citing a lack of depth is nonsense. Rebuilding teams don't have depth.

And yes, you can compare to Buffalo. Does Ottawa have two 1OAs as part of the rebuild? Did Ottawa have an Eichel that was moved out? At this stage the only real criticism of Dorion is the Stone situation. We needed more out of that.

You’re right, the Duchene and Zibanejad deals were one year apart. They were also
both awful trades. I don’t know how you can conclude that “at this stage the only real criticism of Dorion is the Stone situation” when he traded away a guy like Zib who went on to become a legit #1 Center for a declining asset. If you take out two of every GM’s three worst trades they’ll all look a lot better.

Agreed on Karlsson. There was definitely luck involved but can’t complain about the outcome.

Hoffman’s value was definitely tainted. I have difficulty believing that situation couldn’t have been handled better. Apparently the problems between the ladies started in November 2017. You would think the team could have done due diligence and figured out the source of this beef between two stars and addressed it immediately before the deadline. If random player wives on other teams were aware it’s ridiculous our management wasn’t.

Even if they couldn’t have handled that situation differently to avoid the tainted value, the Sharks got better value for a tainted Hoffman than the Sens did just a few hours after acquiring him while the cash strapped Sens added useless Boedker salary.

Agree on Pageau. I thought PD played his hand pretty much perfectly on that one.

Not taking on bad contracts was a major hindrance to PD, he had one hand tied behind his back for sure. Imagine if they could have added Marleau+1st to the Brown/Zaitsev deal and had Jarvis, Guhle or Schneider on the roster right now? Missed opportunities outside PD’s control. Even the Zaitsev anchor would look better now had that happened.

Citing lack of depth is not nonsense when :
1) they had Paul, moved him for a worse player and then proceeded to give that player a similar contract to the one they wouldn’t give Paul.
2) had C. Brown and traded him for a 2nd. This was imprudent as was noted at the time.

The team would look very different with one or both of them still around.

I agree a comparison to Buffalo isn’t really fair when they’ve been rebuilding for much longer and have won the lottery several times. The same does not apply to Montreal though.

The biggest indictment of Dorion in my view has to be his inability to identify and acquire top 4 defensemen. This team has needed to add at least one (if not more) top 4 guy every year since 2017-2018 and has not been able to ice a D core with 4 legit top 4 guys at once in that time. It is certainly difficult to do under the salary constraints he was working with, but he’s also had a very long runway to make it happen and has spent the money he did have on the wrong guys.

Looks like you don’t follow Belleville,, they called up the most qualified, and Jarventie has only played 8 games as he’s been injured, but I know doesn’t fit your narrative.


No team has depth for 6 injuries, the cap doesn’t allow for extra depth, other than minimum wagers.

Sure, but some posters have been excusing the start because of the Norris and Zub injuries. One or two injuries shouldn’t be enough to derail a team.

 

[Loach]

Looks like you don’t follow Belleville,, they called up the most qualified, and Jarventie has only played 8 games as he’s been injured, but I know doesn’t fit your narrative.


No team has depth for 6 injuries, the cap doesn’t allow for extra depth, other than minimum wagers.

What? I used Jarventie as an example. Go and look at the last 6 years of drafting and trades.

Bileur is right. Every team gets injuries to key players, if having Motte and JBD out as well tanks a season, then that is a depth problem.
Depth would be having Connor Brown here. They knew about Formenton, don't sign Motte and play Gambrell. It would be having Zub and Demelo.

There is no narrative. It's called The History Of GM Pierre Dorion.

 

[Xspyrit]

Duchene and Zibanejad were never part of the same team. They were 1+ years apart

Karlsson was coming off a major injury and had posted a less than stellar year. At this point the return on Karlsson is decidedly in Ottawa's favour

The Hoffman situation was a mess. He was totally tainted.

Pageau was glorified by two games. Remove them from his resume and his name isn't likely in your post. He's a one time 20 goal scorer and the return on him was solid.

I edited the post to 6-7 years so no more confusion! Dorion started with Zibanejad, traded him for an older guy, then traded for Duchene and boom rebuild.

I don't care about the reason and excuses, the reality is I have NEVER seen a team going into a rebuild with having the luxury of trading assets like Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Pageau, etc in their PRIME. It is basically never seen before

And your vision of the game is extremely superficial judging by your Pageau argument. If you think his value was built on his 20 goals season, then maybe that's why we see hockey so differently

It would have been helpful had we been able to take on bad contracts but cash flow wise Melnyk wasn't in that game. Not taking on bad contracts is referenced here from time to time, but only by posters with an anti mgmt view or by those that can't see the forest thru the trees.

Oh dear... the problem you and a few others have to blindly defend a GM (who hasn't been able to build a good team in 6 years despite starting with a good prospect pool and bunch of very valuable assets) is the short sighted view.

Yes Melnyk was "cheap" but what you are not seeing is we still spent a LOT of money on below average to barely NHL level players... Do you need names? Dorion DECIDED himself to spend that money on Murray, Gudbranson, Stepan, Dadonov, White, Tierney, Zaitsev, Coburn, Josh Brown, etc...

All this time thinking others "can't see the forest thru the trees" when maybe you were literally stuck against a tree trunk all the way?

This is really the first year we should have been competing and before we got started we were derailed by the Norris injury. Citing a lack of depth is nonsense. Rebuilding teams don't have depth.

And yes, you can compare to Buffalo. Does Ottawa have two 1OAs as part of the rebuild? Did Ottawa have an Eichel that was moved out? At this stage the only real criticism of Dorion is the Stone situation. We needed more out of that.

OK, be satisfied with BELOW mediocrity and use the "rebuilding" excuse for a decade if you want. I have other standards

If you think "the only real criticism of Dorion is the Stone situation", it's pretty clear you've been stuck against a tree trunk. In the meantime, I have been calling in advance everything that Dorion did or did not do that would blow up in our faces. If you leave your biases out at the door, it's actually stuff that is not that hard to predict.

By the way, I was not comparing with Buffalo. If you want to know what competent management is, just look at Gorton + Hughes. They basically got more for trading Lehkonen + Chariot + Toffoli + Kulak and taking on Monahan than our whole firesale minus the Karlsson trade (which is saving our BUTTS big time). People say Dorion was lucky there with the Sharks tanking that much and Norris becoming more than expected.

They started their rebuild 1 year ago, yet they are ahead of us in the standings after 33 games... this is EMBARASSING

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Saying the Sens don’t have depth because of injury is looking at the problem backwards. The reason you need depth is in case of injury.

A few injuries completely depleting your team and making it impossible to compete is the best evidence of lack of depth.

People always say this, but I feel this shows a lack of understanding of the reality of the cap world.

The fact is, with the cap, if you want high end talent-i.e what's needed to win cups-you are inevitably going to have to sacrifice a bit of depth.