The Fall of Pierre

[Loach]

Our day 2 drafting hasn't been a problem at all - the opposite in fact.

Formenton, Batherson, Pinto and Kastelic are all NHLers found after day 1, and Ostapchuk, Kleven, Jarventie, Sokolov, Crookshank, etc... have potential.

 

[Loach]

Ottawa Senators Draft History at hockeydb.com

 

[swiftwin]

Are you serious? He let them all go and no he didnt acquire Paul. Brown he had to take Zaitsev back to get and he didnt even get enough value in a deal for him to dump Zaitsev. He got Duclair on waivers he turned his career around and he let him walk for nothing. They play right in front of him and he cant identify how good they are.

Duclair - He didn't get Duclair on waivers, he got him as part of the Dzingel trade. He let Duclair walk because Duclair's demands were ridiculous, at a time of extreme financial uncertainly at the peak of COVID. The contract Duclair eventually signed (lower than Dorion offered in the first place) proved Dorion right, his value was nowhere near as high. Paul and Brown are way too early to judge. Brown literally only played 4 games, no points and -3, since leaving us...

Besides, if you're going to judge his pro scouting on players he traded/gave away, what about Turris? Brassard? Balcers? When the Duchene-Turris trade happened, everyone here was livid because Duchene was a "marginal" upgrade over Turris, and that we should have caved and given Turris the 7yr deal he wanted. Oddly enough, a year later, Turris was a healthy scratch, and his contract eventually had to be bought out. Brassard? We squeezed a 1st(JBD), 2nd(Tychonik), 3rd and Gustavsson out of that trade, I believe he was also a healthy scratch a year later, or atleast got traded for scraps multiple times. Everyone lost their shit about "aSsEt MaNaGeMeNt" when we lost Balcers on waivers. Guess what? He was also shit and had to be bought out.

How many awful contracts are we stuck with? Zaitsev? That's it? If there's anything Dorion has been good at, it's knowing when to cut players loose before they decline. That falls under pro scouting. That falls under excellent risk management. NHL23 armchair GMs worry about asset management. Real GMs worry about risk management.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Duclair - He didn't get Duclair on waivers, he got him as part of the Dzingel trade. He let Duclair walk because Duclair's demands were ridiculous, at a time of extreme financial uncertainly at the peak of COVID. The contract Duclair eventually signed (lower than Dorion offered in the first place) proved Dorion right, his value was nowhere near as high. Paul and Brown are way too early to judge. Brown literally only played 4 games, no points and -3, since leaving us...

Besides, if you're going to judge his pro scouting on players he traded/gave away, what about Turris? Brassard? Balcers? When the Duchene-Turris trade happened, everyone here was livid because Duchene was a "marginal" upgrade over Turris, and that we should have caved and given Turris the 7yr deal he wanted. Oddly enough, a year later, Turris was a healthy scratch, and his contract eventually had to be bought out. Brassard? We squeezed a 1st(JBD), 2nd(Tychonik), 3rd and Gustavsson out of that trade, I believe he was also a healthy scratch a year later, or atleast got traded for scraps multiple times. Everyone lost their shit about "aSsEt MaNaGeMeNt" when we lost Balcers on waivers. Guess what? He was also shit and had to be bought out.

How many awful contracts are we stuck with? Zaitsev? That's it? If there's anything Dorion has been good at, it's knowing when to cut players loose before they decline. That falls under pro scouting. That falls under excellent risk management. NHL23 armchair GMs worry about asset management. Real GMs worry about risk management.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Can't wait till we clean house and get a new Head of Hockey Ops, GM, and NHL coaches.
Dorion has had ample opportunity since taking over from Brian to show us his ability to assess the roster and make the timely moves to improve.
The coaches are just done. Their inability to coach team defense and see year over year improvements in that area is testament enough for me.
Hopefully the Mann Bros and Bones stay.

 

[bert]

Duclair - He didn't get Duclair on waivers, he got him as part of the Dzingel trade. He let Duclair walk because Duclair's demands were ridiculous, at a time of extreme financial uncertainly at the peak of COVID. The contract Duclair eventually signed (lower than Dorion offered in the first place) proved Dorion right, his value was nowhere near as high. Paul and Brown are way too early to judge. Brown literally only played 4 games, no points and -3, since leaving us...

Besides, if you're going to judge his pro scouting on players he traded/gave away, what about Turris? Brassard? Balcers? When the Duchene-Turris trade happened, everyone here was livid because Duchene was a "marginal" upgrade over Turris, and that we should have caved and given Turris the 7yr deal he wanted. Oddly enough, a year later, Turris was a healthy scratch, and his contract eventually had to be bought out. Brassard? We squeezed a 1st(JBD), 2nd(Tychonik), 3rd and Gustavsson out of that trade, I believe he was also a healthy scratch a year later, or atleast got traded for scraps multiple times. Everyone lost their shit about "aSsEt MaNaGeMeNt" when we lost Balcers on waivers. Guess what? He was also shit and had to be bought out.

How many awful contracts are we stuck with? Zaitsev? That's it? If there's anything Dorion has been good at, it's knowing when to cut players loose before they decline. That falls under pro scouting. That falls under excellent risk management. NHL23 armchair GMs worry about asset management. Real GMs worry about risk management.

Duclair only wanted 3 million same as Paul. How many bad contracts do they have? Just go look at how many players they are paying still that aren't on the team. You actually think he's done a good job? Unbelievable.... They're 13th in the conference pal. You're lost.

I dunno what you're gonna do when he gets fired. Hope you can cope.

 

[swiftwin]

Duclair only wanted 3 million same as Paul. How many bad contracts do they have? Just go look at how many players they are paying still that aren't on the team. You actually think he's done a good job? Unbelievable.... They're 13th in the conference pal. You're lost.

I dunno what you're gonna do when he gets fired. Hope you can cope.

Classic. Whenever people have no response, it's "lOoK aT tHe StAnDiNgS" when it's clear the team is underperforming and has a very very good core to build off of.

I honestly don't care when Dorion get fired. Why do people think I care? He already built this exciting core of young players. Whoever comes after him will reap the benefits of Dorion's work.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Classic. Whenever people have no response, it's "lOoK aT tHe StAnDiNgS" when it's clear the team is underperforming and has a very very good core to build off of.

I honestly don't care when Dorion get fired. Why do people think I care? He already built this exciting core of young players. Whoever comes after him will reap the benefits of Dorion's work.

You have to be trolling at this point.

 

[bert]

Classic. Whenever people have no response, it's "lOoK aT tHe StAnDiNgS" when it's clear the team is underperforming and has a very very good core to build off of.

I honestly don't care when Dorion get fired. Why do people think I care? He already built this exciting core of young players. Whoever comes after him will reap the benefits of Dorion's work.

People think you care because you ignore the entire body of work while blindly defending him. It's a 6 year tear down where he traded multiple stars in their prime. Anyone with that time period would havev something to show for it. Yet the prospect pool has one blue chipper from 2020.

 

[swiftwin]

People think you care because you ignore the entire body of work while blindly defending him. It's a 6 year tear down where he traded multiple stars in their prime. Anyone with that time period would havev something to show for it. Yet the prospect pool has one blue chipper from 2020.

Like who? Give me examples. Which teams have walked away from a rebuild with more and better assets than Dorion has through trades?

 

[Xspyrit]

Drafting Chabot, Sanderson, Stutzle (while byfield and lafreniere are struggling he is a point per game), Tkachuk, Batherson, Formenton, Pinto and Greig, signing Giroux and trading for Norris and Debrincat were all good moves and have built a core around which we can compete for many years in the future.

Chabot : Murray was still GM in 2015 but was already sick

Sanderson : 5th OA pick in a great draft. Would be a shame to miss out here

Stutzle : 3rd OA pick in a great draft, that pick was the result of trading Karlsson which came from the previous regime

Tkachuk : 4th OA pick, again hard to screw up. Let's not forget we missed out on another 4th OA pick the following year because of Dorion trading

Batherson, Formenton, Pinto and Greig : great picks where they were made. Trent Mann is the "man" for the Sens draft and the guy was hired by Bryan Murray in 2011. Murray actually revamped the whole scouting department after he took over from Muckler. I believe several scouts are still there

No team in recent history has blown it up as big as we did after 2017.

At the time they were traded:

Karlsson - two time Norris winner
Duchene - PPG #1 center
Stone - PPG Selke candidate
Hoffman - 1st/2nd line winger
Pageau - elite 3rd line center
Brassard - 2nd line center
Dzingel - 2nd line winger

It's honestly incredible how weak our pipeline is after trading what amounts to a good top 6 forward group and one of the best D in the league, and finishing bottom 10 for 5 (going on 6) straight years.

The Dzingel trade pretty much sums up Dorion's time as a GM

Trade Dzingel for Duclair and two 2nd round picks

- let 25 y/o Duclair walk for NOTHING
- traded a 2nd for Derek Stepan who had a 6.5 AAV, a pure cap dump
- traded a 2nd for Matt Murray, the most injury prone NHL player and give him a giant contract

That's the thing with Dorion, everytime he does something great/good, he finds a way to screw it up. Gets Giroux and DeBrincat this summer, manages to have an horrible bottom-6 when it could have been a strength

Like who? Give me examples. Which teams have walked away from a rebuild with more and better assets than Dorion has through trades?

Montreal by trading Ben Chariot, Artturi Lehkonen and Brett Kulak

Add trading for Sean Monahan, might get 2 firsts out of this. Budget yes, but he could have done stuff like that instead of overpaying bad players.

Oh and about your point of "How many awful contracts are we stuck with?"... we have spent a lot of assets, time and money to repair Dorion mistakes.

 

[CorrectOpinion]

Think how long we developed Nick Paul. And then we gave him away to what were the last cup winners and they signed him 7x3. So if they are willing to pay that for him why weren't we? That is the definition of a value deal btw.

 

[CorrectOpinion]

People constantly blame the players for Dorion mistakes. Like how was it ever Zaitsev's fault that he was given responsibilities he couldn't manage. Our management is the one who decided who got the job. If someone is failing in their position that is at least partly managements fault for putting them there. It's like if you came to the bank and saw me smoking a joint behind the front desk. And then got mad at me because I had no idea what I was talking about. You think that's on me for taking a job and trying to survive or on them for making such a terrible hiring decision. For that matter, anyone who bullies players is an idiot. This fanbase has been through hell and it's because of our management. Luckily, things are gonna change soon.

 

[Ice-Tray]

This fanbase has hardly been through Hell, unless you started being a Sens fan like 6 years ago. Even during our worst stretch we had playoff appearances and a few franchise defining runs. This of course comes on the tail end of making the playoffs for like 13 straight years or something.

The funny thing is that this scortched earth rebuild was something lots of people were calling for around the time when we were trading Fisher and the boys. We needed it done in my opinion.

This fanbase has not toiled anywhere close to as badly, and for as long as many other fanbases in this league. It comes across as whinny to me to be honest. The hardest part is not getting a cup due to Olympics and lockout, the timing sucked.

I mean consider that smack dab in the middle of the rebuild we have a bunch of awesome young talent, the maligned owner up and dies, and now we’re looking at a new downtown arena, and being bought by some billionaire and Ryan Frikkin’ Reynolds….

Yeah, sounds like we’ve had it so hard….

That’s not to say I’m say folks should be happy, far from it, but let’s not pretend that we’re amongst the truly suffering fanbases.

 

[Golden_Jet]

People think you care because you ignore the entire body of work while blindly defending him. It's a 6 year tear down where he traded multiple stars in their prime. Anyone with that time period would havev something to show for it. Yet the prospect pool has one blue chipper from 2020.

It’s not a Six year tear down and you know that.

 

[Micklebot]

This fanbase has hardly been through Hell, unless you started being a Sens fan like 6 years ago. Even during our worst stretch we had playoff appearances and a few franchise defining runs. This of course comes on the tail end of making the playoffs for like 13 straight years or something.

The funny thing is that this scortched earth rebuild was something lots of people were calling for around the time when we were trading Fisher and the boys. We needed it done in my opinion.

This fanbase has not toiled anywhere close to as badly, and for as long as many other fanbases in this league. It comes across as whinny to me to be honest. The hardest part is not getting a cup due to Olympics and lockout, the timing sucked.

I mean consider that smack dab in the middle of the rebuild we have a bunch of awesome young talent, the maligned owner up and dies, and now we’re looking at a new downtown arena, and being bought by some billionaire and Ryan Frikkin’ Reynolds….

Yeah, sounds like we’ve had it so hard….

That’s not to say I’m say folks should be happy, far from it, but let’s not pretend that we’re amongst the truly suffering fanbases.

Been through hell might be a bit dramatic, but the team has the 5th worst pts% since 2007-08, and that's including Seattle.

We've certainly had fewer ups than downs in the last 15 years, and while the ups were lots of fun, I think it's more the off ice stuff that's soul crushing. Not a lot of teams go through their 25 year old franchise player suffering a career altering injury, a long time team captain and fan favourite leaving the team last minute due a fued about promised contracts, their team being internally torn apart by a online bullying scandal turning players wives against each other, firing of Lee and related scandal, ubergate, and a badly needed arena deal falling apart due to infighting all in a 5 or 6 year span. Then there's the more recent stuff, like the athletic article, the spectre of the team Canada scandal, and I'm sure there's more I'm missing. It always seems to be one step forward is followed by a dramatic step back with this team, if you like soap operas the Ottawa Senators just might be the team for you.

If all we had to complain about was trades Dorion did or didn't make, coaches and their systems, and which players aren't playing well, you'd have a really good point, sens fans don't have it that bad. I think it's the other stuff that makes fans feel like maybe they have been hard done. Other teams have the odd scandal, but we seem to be running a marathon of scandals

 

[Golden_Jet]

Stutzle : 3rd OA pick in a great draft, that pick was the result of trading Karlsson which came from the previous regime

Small correction, PD, talked Murray into taking Karlsson, that is well documented.

 

[Loach]

Small correction, PD, talked Murray into taking Karlsson, that is well documented.

I thought is was Lowe, the Euro scout? or something like that, told PD to take him. Kind of like the Pinto pick recently..take this guy or else! Lol

 

[Golden_Jet]

I thought is was Lowe, the Euro scout? or something like that, told PD to take him. Kind of like the Pinto pick recently..take this guy or else! Lol

Senators hoping the No. 15 overall draft pick will be kind once again

OTTAWA - The last time the Ottawa Senators had the 15th overall pick in the NHL draft, they selected a future Norris Trophy finalist. The Senators are back in

thehockeynews.com

Four years ago Dorion, the Senators director of player personnel, convinced Murray to make a deal to jump from 18th to 15th where they selected Karlsson, this year's top scoring defenceman.

 

[Micklebot]

Small correction, PD, talked Murray into taking Karlsson, that is well documented.

I thought is was Lowe, the Euro scout? or something like that, told PD to take him. Kind of like the Pinto pick recently..take this guy or else! Lol

Anders Forsberg I believe was the one who convinced the team to take Karlsson, but the reality is he convinced Dorion (perhaps had to convince Burda first, I think he was head of European scouting at the time) who then backed him up and they convinced Murray,

Either way, Dorion would have been part of it, but if you want to give credit to the scouts over the GM then you probably need to be consistent and give Mann credit for Pinto instead of Dorion, reality is these decisions are made as a group in the meetings, so theres lots of people to share credit (and blame) if Dorion gets credit for Karlsson, then maybe he gets blame for Cowen, Lee, Ceci ect.

 

[bert]

Been through hell might be a bit dramatic, but the team has the 5th worst pts% since 2007-08, and that's including Seattle.

We've certainly had fewer ups than downs in the last 15 years, and while the ups were lots of fun, I think it's more the off ice stuff that's soul crushing. Not a lot of teams go through their 25 year old franchise player suffering a career altering injury, a long time team captain and fan favourite leaving the team last minute due a fued about promised contracts, their team being internally torn apart by a online bullying scandal turning players wives against each other, firing of Lee and related scandal, ubergate, and a badly needed arena deal falling apart due to infighting all in a 5 or 6 year span. Then there's the more recent stuff, like the athletic article, the spectre of the team Canada scandal, and I'm sure there's more I'm missing. It always seems to be one step forward is followed by a dramatic step back with this team, if you like soap operas the Ottawa Senators just might be the team for you.

If all we had to complain about was trades Dorion did or didn't make, coaches and their systems, and which players aren't playing well, you'd have a really good point, sens fans don't have it that bad. I think it's the other stuff that makes fans feel like maybe they have been hard done. Other teams have the odd scandal, but we seem to be running a marathon of scandals

Don't forget losing to your arch rival 4 straight playoff series. Then having their fans absolutely everywhere to remind you about it. They were also the worst team of all time. Your expansion brethren being a borderline dynasty that's won 3 cups and been to 5 finals.

Both Ontario teams have had a pretty rough ride haha.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Don't forget losing to your arch rival 4 straight playoff series. Then having their fans absolutely everywhere to remind you about it. They were also the worst team of all time. Your expansion brethren being a borderline dynasty that's won 3 cups and been to 5 finals.

Both Ontario teams have had a pretty rough ride haha.

Now THIS was Hell! Lol

 

[Micklebot]

Don't forget losing to your arch rival 4 straight playoff series. Then having their fans absolutely everywhere to remind you about it. They were also the worst team of all time. Your expansion brethren being a borderline dynasty that's won 3 cups and been to 5 finals.

Both Ontario teams have had a pretty rough ride haha.

Yeah, even when things were good, they were bad...

 

[Big Muddy]

unless you started being a Sens fan like 6 years ago.

I deleted the rest except for the above.

I've wondered at times what the median age would be in here. Call it idle curiosity I suppose.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

This fanbase has hardly been through Hell, unless you started being a Sens fan like 6 years ago. Even during our worst stretch we had playoff appearances and a few franchise defining runs. This of course comes on the tail end of making the playoffs for like 13 straight years or something.

The funny thing is that this scortched earth rebuild was something lots of people were calling for around the time when we were trading Fisher and the boys. We needed it done in my opinion.

This fanbase has not toiled anywhere close to as badly, and for as long as many other fanbases in this league. It comes across as whinny to me to be honest. The hardest part is not getting a cup due to Olympics and lockout, the timing sucked.

I mean consider that smack dab in the middle of the rebuild we have a bunch of awesome young talent, the maligned owner up and dies, and now we’re looking at a new downtown arena, and being bought by some billionaire and Ryan Frikkin’ Reynolds….

Yeah, sounds like we’ve had it so hard….

That’s not to say I’m say folks should be happy, far from it, but let’s not pretend that we’re amongst the truly suffering fanbases.

Making the playoffs every year for as long as they did sort of re-enforces the perception of feeling screwed imo. Heartbreak year after year as opposed to something like the Karlsson years where you're in and out so much that real belief sort of dies out and you just expect disappointment even when they do get in. There was so much hope in that 13 straight years, but a lot of spankings from the Leafs, the Hasek saga likely costing them a cup or two including the big letdown in 07, then rolling with underwhelming goaltending for years with Emery/Gerber deflating the team. It was a long stretch of good, with a lot of sad mixed in. Then Alfie left and it felt like our hearts were ripped out. A few years later the same happens with the 2nd most beloved player along with another group.

Add that all to Micklebot's points and the crap endured under Melnyk's deterioration and I can see why the perception of being screwed exists.