The core players are showing their true colors again

[BallardEra]

Disagree. While I've really appreciated Tavares rejuvenation early in the year and Nylander has had a more consistent motor this year, we have to remember they have been front and center on a lot of back breaking defensive sequences. The 3rd period GWG by Montreal was the second line blowing the zone. The OT loss to San Jose was Nylander to Sandin, a few other gaffes in between. Robertson with that duo was getting caved in Vegas. I'd say the biggest problems are still the Big Line but lost in all the chaos is the 2nd has been bad defensively too.

True and my worry is that Tavares doesn't look threatening 5 on 5 with all his goals coming on the PP.

 

[notdoneyet]

To be fair, to Dubas you can't win when it comes to contract negotiations. If Dubas pulled the same shit with Marner and Matthews like he did with Nylander, a lot of people who are screaming at him now would have probably screamed at him for holding out with our franchise #1 centre. In the long run it would have probably been the smart thing to do, but he would be crucified having two straight years of holdouts with 3 of your top players. In situations like that you have to hope your stars will take less (even though they are 100% not obligated to do so) aside from Nylander who went through a 3 month hold out, Matthews and Marner cashed in.

Dubas should have let nylander sit for the year
Nylander chose to sit out for 3 months
And dubas gave him all the money he missed because he chose to sit out.
Dubas was weak so matthews and marner who led the team in all categories wouldnt take less especially marner who lou screwed out of elc bonus.
For those who say sitting nylander would hurt his progression have to remember nyland got paid 10.2 million that year for 27 points.

Dubas was weak

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Dubas should have let nylander sit for the year
Nylander chose to sit out for 3 months
And dubas gave him all the money he missed because he chose to sit out.
Dubas was weak so matthews and marner who led the team in all categories wouldnt take less especially marner who lou screwed out of elc bonus.
For those who say sitting nylander would hurt his progression have to remember nyland got paid 10.2 million that year for 27 points.

Dubas was weak

Matthews & Marner eyes widened when they saw the contract that JT got as well. Only natural to compare your value based on or in relation to another employee in your company.

 

[leafsfan5]

Instead of the Leafs learning from their playoff experiences and building into a more serious contender, it seems like the rest of the league has simply applied that first round formula against Toronto, completely boxing out their big guns by clogging up the ice they like and counter rush smashing the Keefe "system."

Tortorella gave the league the playbook in 2020. It's up to us to adjust and so far we haven't

We'll make the playoffs this year, but there's nothing stopping our first round opposition from doing this except for not having the personnel (Florida is the one off the top who can't, but BOS/TB surely can)

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Dubas should have let nylander sit for the year
Nylander chose to sit out for 3 months
And dubas gave him all the money he missed because he chose to sit out.
Dubas was weak so matthews and marner who led the team in all categories wouldnt take less especially marner who lou screwed out of elc bonus.
For those who say sitting nylander would hurt his progression have to remember nyland got paid 10.2 million that year for 27 points.

Dubas was weak

100% this.

Dubas lost an entire season of Nylander (he was a joke that season), only to cave at the end and give him the pastrnak contract anyways. Oh, but WAY more front loaded, WAY more in signing bonuses, and 1 less ufa year.

That right there sealed the deal that Dubas was a weakling. Matthews only signed for 5 years when it was standard at the time for super star players signing for 8. And Marner has a significantly higher aav than his direct comparables.

Just an absolute nightmare. We had a rookie who used a "nice guy" routine on his players... but he didn't consider they'd hire flat out shark agents who were willing to dig in and play dirty.

 

[Judas Tavares]

All I’m going to say is, maybe this market really is the problem. Every player we say that has a “character flaw” has moved on and did well once they leave this place.

Listen. I hate to be the one who brings this up. Cause it can be seen as a lazy excuse. But you honestly have to consider the market itself. It shouldn't be an excuse. But you look at everyone brought in year after year, whether it was a change to the core players or a change to the support pieces.

Nothing has worked. There's always been the same recurring problems. Is it truly the work of every single player drafted, signed or traded for happens to be wrong/crap/has no heart? Is that actually possible? A broken clock is right twice a day. But this team, it's never right.

I'm not going to say it, but I'm going to say it. Swap Mack and Rantanen for Matthews and Marner, Mack and Rantanen have issues here and Matthews and Marner win a Cup in Colorado. 100%.

This is a market where the team is and will be beloved no matter what. You come in and play well for half a season, you are king. On a pedestal. And it can easily go to one's head. But the flip side is, as fast as you become king here, you can be dethroned even faster. And that likely messes with the players. Going from beloved to hated so quickly, to the point where they don't know how to deal with the pressure, criticism and scrutiny after being seen as a God/celebrity or whatever.

A lot of other teams we see win, they are 4th in their market. Players can't get too high because the market is focused on another team, but can't get too low, cause the market is focused on another team.

The Raptors futility pre-Kawhi sucked and was criticized. But in the end, was it really? The Jays blowing it versus Seattle was terrible and is the talk right now. But in year from now, it will be brought up less than the David Ayers game.

Why? These are big and important teams in their market, but they will always be able to hide behind the Leafs. Like other NHL teams are able to do in their markets.

So how do we fix this? Stop paying attention? Change the mindset so that the team becomes 3rd fiddle and can operate in quieter manner? I don't know the answer. But having this coach over that coach, having this dinosaur over that nerd, having this tough player over this wimp, etc... None of that will change anything here, it's been proven this millennium. This, is unfortunately bigger than the core, or the coach, or the GM or the President. You have to at least consider that before thinking Lou + Trotz + Tkachuk over Dubas + Keefe + Nylander would make any difference.

 

[Stephen]

All I’m going to say is, maybe this market really is the problem. Every player we say that has a “character flaw” has moved on and did well once they leave this place.

Phil Kessel - Lazy, unmotivated, bad at defense, not passionate, not a good role model (goes on to win 2 cups and plays a vital role)

Dion Phanuef - bad leader (was an integral part of two deep runs in Ottawa)

Nazem Kadri - immature, undisciplined, (goes on to win a Stanley Cup and was an integral piece to Colorado’s win)

I’m sure there’s more that we can list from the 80’s to 90’s to early 2000’s.

Alex Steen, Larry Murphy, Codi Ceci, Tyson Barrie

One thing is for sure, this market loves to hate their own players. Playing in Toronto is a dream and nightmare. It’s probably amazing being a Toronto Maple Leaf, original six team, all the lights and attention, but I get why players excel after leaving here. This market is a sesspool for hate.

I’m gonna cut it short here, but I personally think people project their own feelings of the team onto Marner and it’s pretty funny that people think that the playoff failure of this team is due to Marner rubbing off on the team. That’s a load of shit, I’m sorry. This team as a group sucks in the playoffs. Matthews, Marner, Nylander’s production is about the same in the playoffs. So it doesn’t all fall on Marner’s shoulders. How many goals has Matthews scored in game deciding games again?

The fact that ex-Leafs went on to have success isn't some surprise. Other than Kadri, each one of those ex-Leafs players were slotted lower in the lineup on their successful teams in programs they didn't grow up in or lead. Marner could go on to win a cup somewhere else. That doesn't bother me if we win our own cup with some other combination.

As far as this market being a problem? It does like building up its idols, absolutely guilty of that. But when it comes to the tear down, it's not like the players didn't deserve harsh criticism when they got it.

 

[Captain Crunch]

I'm sorry I'm not blaming early season issues again. This trend of playing down to teams is here once again.
This is all on the core players which the GM continues to support.
We need changes and it can't be the coach or be the only one. Either Dubas needs to change this dressing room or someone else should.

Dubas and Shanahan need to go. Bringing in someone new with no ties or allegiance to this group of players would be the best thing to happen. I’m concerned that Dubas will put us in even worse shape if he’s still here come the trade deadline.

 

[BallardEra]

The fact that ex-Leafs went on to have success isn't some surprise. Other than Kadri, each one of those ex-Leafs players were slotted lower in the lineup on their successful teams in programs they didn't grow up in or lead. Marner could go on to win a cup somewhere else. That doesn't bother me if we win our own cup with some other combination.

As far as this market being a problem? It does like building up its idols, absolutely guilty of that. But when it comes to the tear down, it's not like the players didn't deserve harsh criticism when they got it.

It makes you wonder how objective the media is because like us, they want the Leafs to see a Cup win too.

Talks of 70 goals from Matthews and a Presidents Trophy for the Leafs predictions from a few of the media really makes you question their objectiveness.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

True, but they won those cups playing on the third line/pair, not the first. This team has a loser culture and that’s on ownership & management. The Yankees, Lakers, Man U, Barça etc. have rabid fan bases too and they still manage to field winners.

100% Marner and Matthews should’ve been moved when they didn’t have team friendly deals. Or at least one of them to know they ain’t shit and crest matters more.

Dubas spent our first half of the window thinking of speedy midgets and then now he walks back and admits we need toughness and size.

Time to blow it all up. Or make a major trade for starters

 

[Captain Crunch]

man who seen this coming when Matthews, Marner and Nylander entered the league on ELCs.
so disappointing this is what we got after that Washington series when we lost in Game 6. Thought by now they would have or been very close to winning a Cup. but still we're hunting for a 1st Round win still.
they did this last year and can still turn the season around fairly quickly but doesnt give me a whole lotta hope that the results will be any different.

I believe that was the start of it all. Totally abandoned the rebuild and started trading away draft picks for rentals because they mistakenly thought they were closer than they actually were.

 

[Stephen]

It makes you wonder how objective the media is because like us, they want the Leafs to see a Cup win too.

Talks of 70 goals from Matthews and a Presidents Trophy for the Leafs predictions from a few of the media really makes you question their objectiveness.

The media is doing its job for entertainment purposes. The problem is the players who are not doing their job for entertainment purposes. It's not that complicated.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

For me, I think it's both things you said.

At the top, Dubas and Keefe don't know what they're doing when it comes to their constant yapping about belief in the core, their extreme anxiety about calling them to account, walking it back.

Also look at their extreme galaxy brain and yo-yo'ing of players creating instability. Build a new 4th line. Banish the old one. Put Simmonds out to pasture, bring him back in the To 9. Promote Sandin and Robertson inappropriately fast. Bury them. Sign Barabanov, Lehtonen. Give them 6 weeks in a pandemic to catch fire with minimal ice time. Banish them. Things not working out with Nick Ritchie? Pay to get rid of him. It just doesn't make sense half the time. It's like they're managing a fantasy team.

For the Marner part, I think if one of your big dogs has a certain personality and the rest of the team behaves like him, best believe his personality has helped shape the team identity. I wouldn't expect one of our big stars to wilt under the heat but all the mercenary scrubs here to prove themselves are going to go through walls a la Mackinnon.

I guess Shanny wasn't lying when he said it was a 5yr plan that changes day to day...

 

[Stephen]

I believe that was the start of it all. Totally abandoned the rebuild and started trading away draft picks for rentals because they mistakenly thought they were closer than they actually were.

Putting a guy like Patrick Marleau into that room so early may not have been the best veteran voice if you're looking for a leader and killer instinct. Quite the opposite.

 

[Captain Crunch]

100% Marner and Matthews should’ve been moved when they didn’t have team friendly deals. Or at least one of them to know they ain’t shit and crest matters more.

Dubas spent our first half of the window thinking of speedy midgets and then now he walks back and admits we need toughness and size.

Time to blow it all up. Or make a major trade for starters

I have zero confidence in this team as long as Dubas and Shanahan are here.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I'm sorry I'm not blaming early season issues again. This trend of playing down to teams is here once again.
This is all on the core players which the GM continues to support.
We need changes and it can't be the coach or be the only one. Either Dubas needs to change this dressing room or someone else should.

I don't disagree, but your thesis is shallow. What are these "true colours" you speak of?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Feels like they enjoy being good, but have no willingness to sacrafice for greatness.

They play like they are water...they just go to wherever there is least resistance. I laugh when they blab after getting booted on how they are NOW learning what it takes to win. If you watched any hockey from the 2nd round in and saw the fearlessness and sacrifice that other teams were making by blocking shots and taking hits...you realize the Leafs have zero clue on how to win when it counts. They play like they think... some would call it lazy..others entitled..but either way...it won't ever win anything for them.

 

[horner]

Disagree. While I've really appreciated Tavares rejuvenation early in the year and Nylander has had a more consistent motor this year, we have to remember they have been front and center on a lot of back breaking defensive sequences. The 3rd period GWG by Montreal was the second line blowing the zone. The OT loss to San Jose was Nylander to Sandin, a few other gaffes in between. Robertson with that duo was getting caved in Vegas. I'd say the biggest problems are still the Big Line but lost in all the chaos is the 2nd has been bad defensively too.

I watched nylander in the pre season and he was flying scoring .
Ian not seeing that in him.
He is getting his assist be no goals not good enough , he like our other top forwards all can take her a game but don't wish to.
Watch Boston play and tell me if what Nylander and other top players are doing enough. I say no.
Mathews marner and nylander arent doing enough.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Listen. I hate to be the one who brings this up. Cause it can be seen as a lazy excuse. But you honestly have to consider the market itself. It shouldn't be an excuse. But you look at everyone brought in year after year, whether it was a change to the core players or a change to the support pieces.

Nothing has worked. There's always been the same recurring problems. Is it truly the work of every single player drafted, signed or traded for happens to be wrong/crap/has no heart? Is that actually possible? A broken clock is right twice a day. But this team, it's never right.

I'm not going to say it, but I'm going to say it. Swap Mack and Rantanen for Matthews and Marner, Mack and Rantanen have issues here and Matthews and Marner win a Cup in Colorado. 100%.

This is a market where the team is and will be beloved no matter what. You come in and play well for half a season, you are king. On a pedestal. And it can easily go to one's head. But the flip side is, as fast as you become king here, you can be dethroned even faster. And that likely messes with the players. Going from beloved to hated so quickly, to the point where they don't know how to deal with the pressure, criticism and scrutiny after being seen as a God/celebrity or whatever.

A lot of other teams we see win, they are 4th in their market. Players can't get too high because the market is focused on another team, but can't get too low, cause the market is focused on another team.

The Raptors futility pre-Kawhi sucked and was criticized. But in the end, was it really? The Jays blowing it versus Seattle was terrible and is the talk right now. But in year from now, it will be brought up less than the David Ayers game.

Why? These are big and important teams in their market, but they will always be able to hide behind the Leafs. Like other NHL teams are able to do in their markets.

So how do we fix this? Stop paying attention? Change the mindset so that the team becomes 3rd fiddle and can operate in quieter manner? I don't know the answer. But having this coach over that coach, having this dinosaur over that nerd, having this tough player over this wimp, etc... None of that will change anything here, it's been proven this millennium. This, is unfortunately bigger than the core, or the coach, or the GM or the President. You have to at least consider that before thinking Lou + Trotz + Tkachuk over Dubas + Keefe + Nylander would make any difference.

That is the frustrating part of our market. We make Bunting seem like he is going to get $5Mx7yr after 1 good season and pump his tires until they explode with us saying he is a 4th liner that took advantage of playing with AM and MM. This market can make you a lot of money and also make the player look like poison should they choose to do so.

Oddly enough, I really think that had we not choked against boston in the 1st series and not blown the 3rd period lead...we would have had wind in our sails and gone on to a different trajectory. I blame Fred for that game and we never played with confidence in a deciding game again.

 

[Gallagbi]

They play like they are water...they just go to wherever there is least resistance. I laugh when they blab after getting booted on how they are NOW learning what it takes to win. If you watched any hockey from the 2nd round in and saw the fearlessness and sacrifice that other teams were making by blocking shots and taking hits...you realize the Leafs have zero clue on how to win when it counts. They play like they think... some would call it lazy..others entitled..but either way...it won't ever win anything for them.

Thats overly harsh, if they were that easy they dont get to the elimination games they have, but theyve definitely missed the "it" factor

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Thats overly harsh, if they were that easy they dont get to the elimination games they have, but theyve definitely missed the "it" factor

Someone said it best yesterday....Easy to play against...hard to outscore. That is the reason we made it to elimination games when we could have finished teams off.

 

[Beneven Stanciano]

True and my worry is that Tavares doesn't look threatening 5 on 5 with all his goals coming on the PP.

On a whole and as a blanket statement, f*ckin no one has looked good 5v5 this year. They look like a tournament team that knows they are better than most everyone else but never practices together. They're all super skilled guys but there is just 0 team game 5v5. They look most dangerous on the PK because they seem to stick to a plan there. 5v5 and PP, no support for puck carriers, no intent in the play, just get it into the Ozone somehow because that's where the play should go and move it around for a one and done. 5v5 seems to lack structure to a degree that it is sort of stunning to see.

Just my lowly opinion but when I play teams that play like this I'm straight away telling my teammates "hey these guys are yipping at each other and getting on their own nerves. If we just play simple structure they'll collapse 100" because you can see it. You can see when people aren't playing for each other. I'm not saying that is what's happening, but that's more or less my read on it.

 

[Srsly]

It makes you wonder how objective the media is because like us, they want the Leafs to see a Cup win too.

Talks of 70 goals from Matthews and a Presidents Trophy for the Leafs predictions from a few of the media really makes you question their objectiveness.

Matthews got off to a slow start last season and finished with 60 goals so it’s a little early to write him off. That said, I was hoping that meant he took the next step last season and wasn’t just a slow starter. I’m assuming the media had similar aspirations.

Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Nylander are all streaky players. The only one who seems to care right now is Tavares and he’s quickly aging out. Im a little worried about two years from now when it might not even matter if he gives a damn because he won’t be able to play at a high level becauses he’s probably one of the main reasons we’re even a 500 team to start this season.

 

[Beneven Stanciano]

Meant to also ask, did anyone else hear Keefe scream "COME ON" during the last powerplay in the 1st period?

 

[PromisedLand]

The team will never win until the cap goes up significantly or they trade a core player.

You just can't fake it in this league. Leafs have lost too many quality depth players as cap casualties and don't have the space to add to the team.

what u talking about? thats the kyle dubas strategy "Fake it till you make it"